We are talking about the Jund matchup in this scenarioOriginally Posted by snailster
We aren't cutting the third counterbalance to fit in predict, the two predict are essential and I would breathe them in the same breath as 4 top when choosing my deck list .
The cutting of counterbalance is due to CB being bad vs many of the tier one starts now and we shave one to make room for more generic cards .
The third predict comes in when you board in more spells. Idea is that, post board, we cut the clunky elements of the deck most of the time so we can streamline things, and increase our spell count. Therefore, we prolong the game and adding in the third predict, fourth snap caster let's us pull far ahead when games do go long. You don't bring it in vs things like burn, etc, because post board matches aren't extended much even with a higher spell count in these cases.
Sorry, I should've been specific. I was more commenting on the Delver SB plan :)
The Jund part is helpful though, since I have no idea how to board vs them. lol
No REB effects coming in vs delver seems totally foreign to me. A cheap piece of interaction that can also shoot a delver or a clique should be great, no?
Some do, some don't. Boarding vs Grixis Delver should be fluid. If you suspect stifle, DO NOT board in red blasts since fetching for basic mountain is going to be rather difficult. If no stifle, boarding in some number of blasts is fine, but the cards that really do us in are the discard spells backed up by young pyromancer, and blast doesn't do anything vs those. Just my two cents.
It's for this reason that you cannot board in blasts for RUG delver at all, since it's actively miserable to find basic mountain
? So you also side out all your fetches then? Or do you reckon they only stifle the ones that can go for basic mountain? And do you also side out your non-basics since they can get hit by wasteland?
REB/pyro replaces force of will for me since I don't want the card disadvantage and just run them out of their threats or resolve counter/top. REB/pyro acts as both removal and a counter.
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what's for lunch.
No, but you want Island, Island, Plains as your first three lands. Not Island, Plains, Mountain.
RUG usually board some amount of wasteland against you. They are cards that matter very little.
Yeah, this is basically why I don't bring in REBs vs Delver decks.
I could maybe see myself bringing in REBs vs BUG delver that is on the hymn lili plan, because Jace is likely to come in from the board. Not really in other MUs though
In the last month or two, every game I have played with miracles has been a struggle. Trying to adapt Nahiri was really fun, but just jamming it into the legend build didn't go particularly well (lots of 2-3's). The card is outstanding in the mirror, and very good against slower decks that don't have too many threats (like shardless). But a new control shell needs to be built around the card. You can't just use your life total to absorb pressure when trying to win off Nahiri like you can with Entreat or Counter/Top lock. Often I landed it when the opponent was almost out of stuff, and then their last card was a Mentor and I got wrecked. Otherwise, Nahiri resolving was a game win. That's pretty exciting given that the card only costs 4 and can't be blasted or Flusterstormed.
I feel like there is a true Nahiri deck waiting to be found, but I can't see it yet. I do believe the card is strong enough for Legacy, and I expect it will start to occasionally show up in other, non-Miracle decks. In the meantime, GP Columbus is coming up so I rearranged some things in straight-up Legend Miracles and promptly went 5-0 today. That felt good (my online record is much worse than most people realize). I know everyone and their mother is winning with the Predict version nowadays and I don't have so much pride (I hope) that I wouldn't switch over if that gave me the best shot. Until that day comes though, I am going to keep doing my best to beat the crap out of all you guys that think winning games with control has anything to do with card drawing.
That's not really an issue in my current 75 since I don't play a basic mountain. But I would not dare say that you always want island-island-plains over island-mountain-plains assuming you even have that choice since duals get in your opening hand quite a few times. And since you reckon (something which I highly doubt) that they side out one or more wasteland that would not be that much of a problem anyway. I also assume you want double blue for a quick counterbalance where my focus would be to get rid of their first creatures as fast as possible.
But my main point was that it seems absurd to not board blasts because your fetchland might get stifled. Which is rather odd since your fetch count stays the same weither you want to fetch for the mountain or not. And I'm pretty sure if they have stifle (or you expect it) you would really want to acces red blast since a stifled miracle trigger could lose you the game (or at least cost you a turn or more in damage).
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what's for lunch.
Okay so here's the thing that I don't think you're understanding: the concept of a stable mana base vs delver decks. Whether you are playing basic mountain or not isn't really that important. You want to start off with island plains island vs any delver deck because you don't want to be priced into fetching for wasteland-able duals, right? But sure, you'll have a draw the involves all duals no matter what, and that's going to happen some percentage of games, right? So you have these red cards in your deck but what happens when every red source gets wastelanded? The red cards aren't cast able.
Now, you have basic mountain in your deck! Woooo! You can cast blasts without fear of wasteland so why don't we jam them all? Simple, basic mountain ONLY casts blasts! So now we draw these red cards that we can only cast with one land and, sure, they CAN help you fight a crucial counter war, but since your mana base is taxed heavily vs delver decks, having a land that only casts four spells is a bit of a detriment.
You can argue that Wear//Tear could also come in, but, in predict builds, the Tear part of it so the most important one to utilize vs delver decks because of Sulfuric Vortex and Sylvan Library. I don't care if my top gets needled or anything like that.
So, in short, in the interest of having a stable manabase, I don't personally like bringing in blasts vs most delver decks because we are then priced into finding a red source vs them, and I would rather rely on a stable manabase and maneuverability through their soft counters via sequencing. I hope this clears up the confusion, it isn't entirely because of stifle.
I usually setup Flusterstorm protection from Stifle so getting that red source hasnt been problem for me.
Precisely, that's the best line of defense that I believe we should be using.
Best of luck Joe! I agree with all your points about Nahiri, and I've entertained the thought of her in several Jeskai Stoneblade shells, perhaps she's the card that that deck needs to be able to compete again? It's hard to say. While you and I might have different idealogies, I wish you the very best of luck with Legends Miracles. It's simply two different idealogies at odds here, and I totally understand that. See you at GP Columbus!
First of all my initial reaction was when you claimed REB/pyroblast was not worth it because if they run stifle and they would just stifle the fetch leaving you without red. While if you would have been fetching for any other land the result would be the same (it gets stifled). This has as a result no influence whatsoever on the stability and/or development of your mana base and might just as easily cut you of from whatever color you need at that point in the game.
Second of all it was you again that argued that they will side out wasteland(s) vs us because according to you they would anticipate us having too many basics. Although I disagree with that proposition it invalidates again your point of running us out of red sources since they would need to find all 3 wasteland (since they boarded at least one out according to you) and which also means I got to cast at least 3 of my 4 REB/pyroblast which is fine by me (because I am 100% sure that every red blast will hit a priority target and there are plenty of those).
Don't get me wrong. Boarding REB/pyro comes at a cost and I'm aware of that. But for the risk I am taking I have access to 4 hard counters that hits about half the spells in their deck and also acts as an answer to their most dangerous early game threat.
We have a difference of opinion. There is not confusion. You want to be sure every single spell resolves by playing around daze/spell pierce/wasteland/stifle. So you cast your spells with one/two mana open and fetch/play basics whenever possible and you will only take the risk to run into those spells when you have no other option. Nothing wrong with that but I choose to be somewhat more aggressive and try and force them to have the answer every single time. I will occasionally run into the God-hand and lose because I get wrecked on mana while you will be more likely to get into trouble because you stabilize too late. There is no right and wrong just playstyle and preference.
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what's for lunch.
I would hesitate to board flusterstorm vs them at all since it is pretty narrow. But to be able to set up an early game fetch with flusterstorm protection (even when fluster is a 3-off which is the absolute maximum) seem kind of hard. And later in the game (when you probably have 3-4 mana available) it's not that useful anymore. It's good when you have it but doesn't really seem like a dependable strategy to me.
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what's for lunch.
What changes in particular did you make to your old legends build?
I never said anything about wasteland being boarded out, there's no way that's going to happen.
And yes, we do have a difference of opinion, and that's fine. Just be aware that the answer changes based on a a number of factors and this is why I look at things in this particular way.
Reagens must be thinking about Quasim0ff; he's the one that said RUG boarded out Wasteland.
The purpose of any moat is to impede attack. Some are filled with water, some with thistles. Some are filled with things best left unseen.
So I was testing against SnS earlier, and this happened in g2:
My hand: FoW, Brainstorm, Karakas, CB, Surgical, Wear//Tear, Tarn
My field: Island (tapped), Strand
Opp: 6 cards
Opp field: Volc, Volc, Mtn
Opp: taps Volc, Volc, Mtn -> casts SnT
Here's what I did:
I let the SnT resolve, he puts in Gbrand I put in Karakas.
Me. EoT, I tap Karakas to bounce Gbrand.
Op. In response, pays 7 life (17-10).
Me. In response, I Surgical his SnT.
Op. In response, cast FoW pitching Ponder (2c left in hand)
Me. In response, fetch Tundra with Strand, cast Brainstorm (get Mentor, Jace, Terminus-my one-of). Put back Jace, Mentor (top). Cast FoW pitching CB targeting FoW. Resolves. His hand: Sneak Attack, Island.
Op. Draws 7, Gbrand bounced.
Me. untap, cast Mentor, play tarn, pass.
Op. untap, plays City, plays Sneak Attack, activates
Me. In response, I fetch Tundra with Tarn and Tear it
Op. FoW pitching blue card.
At that point it's looking bad because now he has active Sneak, I'm stuck with Terminus in hand, AND my Karakas is tapped. Opponent attacks, draws 7, passes (opponent tapped out with 7 cards in hand at 10 life).
I topdeck a Snapcaster, go to cast, opponent has his THIRD FoW. GG.
My question: Was the Surgical -> SnT greedy? Should I have FoW'd the SnT, then with it still on the stack (after opponent FoWs back) Surgical the FoW instead? I get to put in the Karakas and my opponent draws 7 anyway, but then I can do stuff without worrying about FoW out of my opponent ever again (meaning that W/T resolves, and Snapcaster resolves and I can now Surgical either SnT or Sneak Attack to hit–obviously go after Sneak since I can then leave Karakas up for the rest of the game).
Or did he just have the nuts and that happens sometimes, even with the strength of my hand being what it was? I don't like this answer because I definitely felt in the driver's seat until he FoWed my Wear/Tear, which I feel could have been avoided if I took the other Surgical line.
The purpose of any moat is to impede attack. Some are filled with water, some with thistles. Some are filled with things best left unseen.
I think allowing that first Show and Tell to resolve was a mistake, even with the Karakas and regardless of whatever gets Extracted, because it opens you up to the draw 7... or even a draw 14, which this particular opponent had enough life to do.
With 5 cards in hand and a Show and Tell on the stack, tapped out, the opponent was screaming BAIT SPELL, suggesting that his hand was stacked either with Forces or backup SnTs. Still can't let it resolve.
Yea that's what I was thinking, too. If he has the FoW backup, well he has the FoW backup and he'll get to draw 7 either way. And if he doesn't have the FoW backup, well NOW he will because he just got to draw 7.
Now, do I Surgical the SnT or the FoW if I take that line and it plays out the way it would have (he FoWs back) in this situation? If he doesn't FoW back, do I still Surgical the SnT? Or, since I have a Karakas in hand, the SnT kill is pretty much off the table and I save the Surgical for Sneak Attack (if I'm able to counter or destroy one)?
The purpose of any moat is to impede attack. Some are filled with water, some with thistles. Some are filled with things best left unseen.
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