Miracle Control

[Patrunkenphat7]

Well it's been fun, but Top definitely had to go. If you played this deck right you should have easily had 80-85% MWP against the field. In fact, the deck was so good that you could play bad cards like Predict and Venser and not even play the full 4 maindeck Mentor and still do very well with the deck. I'll catch you guys in the other threads - time to sleeve up Seas.

[drocker23]

Has anyone considered a control deck built around nahiri the harbinger as the win condition?

[Lormador]

I disagree that Top had to go. Counterbalance and Top had been pillars of control decks in the format since their printing and there was never a problem with them before. Think about how long ago that was. People were dealing with Survival, Goblins, and High Tide back then.

It's the Miracle cards themselves, particularly Terminus, that should have been banned instead of the archetype-defining Countertop package. I would have been happy slinging a tier 2 deck with Supreme Verdicts instead of Terminus. However, for reasons unknown to myself I hate creature decks, and am not faced with the prospect of sliding basically the whole show across the table at my LGS in search of my next deck.

It will be Seas that get shipped back my way, but as I have class, they will be part of Storm and not whatever goofy goodstuff deck WOTC's pushed creatures are fueling this time around.

[phg22]

I've started to brew a bit with Nahiri. Could play blood moon, some number of Snapcasters and Cliques, and a bunch of removal and counters. Probably needs the moons and something like Venser to beat Karakas, maybe Wastelands? Since we're already playing Nahiri as a four mana walker to win the game, I like playing JVP over JTMS.

[nonja]

Why not to try Soothsaying?
Back in old days it was really playable

[MorphBerlin]

Well it's been fun, but Top definitely had to go. If you played this deck right you should have easily had 80-85% MWP against the field. In fact, the deck was so good that you could play bad cards like Predict and Venser and not even play the full 4 maindeck Mentor and still do very well with the deck. I'll catch you guys in the other threads - time to sleeve up Seas.

It's funny how many Miraclesplayes are still too biased to see that. I picked up the deck for the last 3 local weeklies and it was just a joke how many puns you could make (and I did make many obviously) and still have game against every deck in the room. Hell I was even 2-0 against Manaless Dredge. I think UWx control is still viable honestly, you will jsut have to put in some work and accapt that you will have bad MUs (just like everybody else in the format, welcome back to the rest of the field, you enjoyed this "ride long enough)

And while it might be true that Terminus or CB would have been nicer to keep the deck somewhat alive, Wizards logic was allways to ban the enabler not the payoff, so it just makes sense that top had to go unfortunatly.

[Cipher]

It's funny how many Miraclesplayes are still too biased to see that. I picked up the deck for the last 3 local weeklies and it was just a joke how many puns you could make (and I did make many obviously) and still have game against every deck in the room. Hell I was even 2-0 against Manaless Dredge. I think UWx control is still viable honestly, you will jsut have to put in some work and accapt that you will have bad MUs (just like everybody else in the format, welcome back to the rest of the field, you enjoyed this "ride long enough)

And while it might be true that Terminus or CB would have been nicer to keep the deck somewhat alive, Wizards logic was allways to ban the enabler not the payoff, so it just makes sense that top had to go unfortunatly.

Same can be said about Delver decks.

People are just used to control decks in other formats that are so underpowered you have to tip-toe the margins to get a win. Miracles was one the only Control deck in recent memory where you had tools strong enough to actually run away with the game. Considering they never have mentioned any statistics in regards to it's win rate, I assume it's not even that much higher than other Tier 1 Legacy decks. If it had been a midrange Stoneblade deck people would have been fine with this, but since it was creatureless control it ended up getting a public execution...

And don't tell me they "only ban enablers", when Modern is littered with decks like Dredge and Eldrazi that completely wrecked the format and were only nerfed from Tier 0 to Tier 1. They know damn well how to balance and curb overpowered decks; killing off Miracles was a conscious decision. Dredge, a cheap, totally degenerate Modern deck that had only been around a few months, was spared whereas Miracles just had to go?

[entreri_fans]

Hi, has anyone tried Sylvan Library to replace SDT after the ban?

I know it is a much more clunky card compared with SDT (higher cost, less flexible activation, mess our manabase).

But it can keep the Terminus/EtA on our library top as long as we don't want to draw it.

Mirri's Guile almost does the same, except for less cost and not allowing additional cards draw.

I know the archetype is destroyed by Wizards, but I still want to play Miracle cards in Legacy, even if this is a tier 2 or tier 3

Would appreciate for any input, thanks

[Lormador]

For me, it's about history as well as finance. For as long as Countertop has existed, it's been a pillar of Legacy's control decks. Sometimes it's been great, sometimes it's been sort of barely playable, but it's never been a stranger to the tables. Both super-competitive players and those who just HAD to jam mono U control used the combination, and Top found a home all over the place.

For years and years Wizards kept it legal because it was, indeed, not overpowered at all. Then they printed these Miracle cards and the archetype took off, becoming ultimately the supreme deck is oh so recently was. It's perfectly obvious to anyone who's actually been playing the game for long enough that those Miracle cards were what pushed the deck over the edge. Prior to the Miracle cards, you had to be some crazed brewer in search of a good Maverick matchup that didn't also lose to combo in order to sleeve up Countertop.

Wizards screwed up again in the interim period with the Delve cards, and for awhile Miracles wasn't the top dog (though it was certainly fine). This error is eventually rectified, in which process Wizards almost intentionally and knowingly put Miracles back on top. After another long period of dominance, we get this.

It's utterly infuriating. There people were, dedicated fans of Countertop in 2012, tooling along as they had been for years, happily using Countertop to occasionally win games of Magic. Imagine the intervening events compressed into a short period of time to realize their absurdity.

"Here's Terminus, enjoy!"

[Eyes get all big, wins a bunch of games, but half an hour later] "Oh oops, it's too good, Top is hereby banned, your deck is now worth $500 less and all the stuff you might want to trade into just went up 20%, have fun playing Legacy: the format we care about and support."

[acidhead]

Seriously, what dropped in price? Top, CB and the Miracle Spells? Wasn't that the cheap stuff in this deck anyways?

Btw, there is a new creatureless control deck in hatching which plays 3/0 mana Balance and Ancestral Recalls. Sure, it prolly misses the sweet hard lock and constant Card Quality, so we're back on the ancient power-relation that combo beats control and control beats aggro. But I'm pretty sure it will be a nice control deck anyways and it won't be the first which brings in all the hate against combo from the side. And speaking of aggro: where are this ultra-agressive Zoo builds, now that they didn't have to fear the hardlock and instant ultra-wrath for {w} in the new meta?

So, while you're wailing I already have a ton of fun crushing my opponents with glorious ANT freed from it's green splash and ever-sweet Canadian.

As hard this ban struck me in the first place, I'm starting to like it every day a little bit more.

[jdmdave]

Maybe shift gears back to the old enlightened tutor build? Rip/Energy field reduces dependence on terminus and the tutor package plays nicely with c balance. Combine with higher jace count and profit?

[mike1987]

These ppl might be onto something here:

1)https://mtgdecks.net/deck/mtgo_compe...unsong/682451/

2)https://twitter.com/KMD_ADVANTAGE/st...87775113056257

Does anyone have the full decklist of the second link, cant seem to view the picture in full.

[gh0st_b1rd]

Ojutais, Restoration Angels. Those guys are far too spicy for me.

[Poron]

our colors still have

For creatures, up to:

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 REB
4 Pyroclasm/Volcanic Fallout/K. Return
4 Supreme Verdict

4 Snapcaster Mage

For combo

Flusterstorm
Spell Snare
Force of Will
Mind Break Trap
Containment Priest
Karakas
Orim's Chant/Silence

This colors for control are all but dead.
Counterbalance was not so strong with only Decays, Caverns and Vials around and 90% of the time Terminus would have been the same as casting K. Return (DRS, Delver decks).

In my opinion, we still have the same big problem we had before: how do we win? That's why BDD started playing 4 Mentors and no Terminus MD

[jdmdave]

My response keeps getting deleted for some reason. I've been testing Condescend/JTMS miracles to pretty strong results on MTGO. It's not as good as the deck used to be, but it's doing pretty well. I'll try Portent/Opt/Mystic Speculation next.

* 4 Ponder
* 2 Condescend
* 4 Bstorm
* 4 Snap
* 4 Cbalance
* 4 JTMS
* 1 E-explosives
* 1 Council's
* 4 Terminus
* 4 STP
* 4 Force
* 2 Counterspell
* 1 Flusterstorm (Counterspell/Flusterstorm/Spell Pierce/Spell Snare count needs to be adjusted)
* 10 Fetch
* 2 Volc
* 2 Tundra (Mirroring IRL collection
* 2 Plains
* 5 Island

Sideboard

* 2 Flusterstorm
* 2 Blood Moon
* 4 REB
* 2 Surgical
* 1 Containment
* 2 Wear/Tear
* 2 Vcliue

[laywer]

Trying this right now. Let's see if it works:

[melaar]

« We need alternatives, Hanna, » yelled Gerrard. « Now ! »
Opt surround text is appropriated to our situation. I'm testing the card at the moment and I think it is rather not bad.

[kentheide]

Trying this right now. Let's see if it works:

This deck is called Stoneblade.

[Minniehajj]

This deck is called Stoneblade.

That's pretty much what we have to talk about at this point.

Trying this right now. Let's see if it works:

A few criticisms of the list: I think you need -1 SFM because 2 + 1 equipment has always been enough, and I don't see why you need 3 if you only have 1 equipment to fetch. I would replace the 3rd with a second spell snare.

Secondly, I think you strongly need a basic mountain or a 3rd Volcanic Island if you have this many red cards in your sideboard that you're incentivized to bring in vs Delver, as I don't believe that 2 Volc alone is sustainable.

Finally, I understand you're just testing, as I have, but I think any # of Miracles cards want your manipulation suite to be at it's highest. That likely means 4 JTMS and less Predicts because Predict simply is just too difficult to sustain CA from with only 8 Cantrip effects.

Just my two cents, hope your testing goes well!

[drocker23]

I think the evolution of miracles is basically going to go in one of two directions:

1) as soon as someone puts up major results at a big tournament with stoneblade everyone will gravitate toward that
Or
2) Someone will come up with a cantrip heavy uw/x draw go control deck that maxes out on Monastery Mentor and Jace, the Mind Sculptor as it's primary win conditions.

But overall, I believe that without Sensei's Divining Top, the miracles cards are just dead until they print something else that will act as an enabler because right now all the enablers are awful. I seriously doubt there's some card out there that someone hasn't thought of yet that will bring the deck back from the brink of death.

Maybe Landstill will do something but I'm not holding my breath