I don't mind the missed counterspells much. If you've got counterbalance active, E Tutor can put a 1, 2, 3, or 4 casting cost spell on top of your library; which can be quite useful in the case of cards that say "counter this or die"
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Has anyone considered Vedalken Shackles instead of Supreme Verdict? It costs 3 colorless mana, punches through Mother + Teeg, and stalls the red zone until your opponent manages to find and resolve proper removal.
Isn't Oblivion Ring strictly superior to Detention Sphere in lists with 20+ blue spells?
What is the reasoning behind playing any less than 4 Counterbalance in the main?
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
Shackles is a bit slow (5 mana to play), depends on islands which you might or might not have tons of, and eats removal like Abrupt Decay, whereas Supreme Verdict/Terminus just takes care of your problems.
Oblivion Ring is generally better, but I wouldn't say strictly better. You might be able to hit multiples of things, like Lingering Soul tokens in a pinch.
I play 3 Counterbalance MD, 0/1 SB but I'd be interested to hear what people think about this last question.
You will not find anyone on The Source which loves Vedalken Shackles any more than I do. Abrupt Decay is the main reason I'm not running it. I would still consider it a a 1-off MD/SB if your metagame demands it/you have available space/you're like me and you shove the card into every possible deck at the slightest chance.
You sometimes get a 2x1 out of Detention Sphere, so I would not call it strictly better.
Not sure on the last one, the average number is 3/4, with a larger tendency to 3.
It's also scientifically proven that resolving Nicol Bolas during a competitive legacy event causes the caster's penis to grow a good two or three inches.
I used to run 4 FoW and 3 Counterbalance MD, with 1 in the SB. This sort of seems backward to me since Counterbalance is better against fair decks and unfair decks, so I just switched it to 4 CB and 3 FoW MD with a FoW in the SB.
I think Detention Sphere being pitchable to FoW is something to consider, in addition to hitting multiple permanents (which can be relevant more often than you'd think). Though, with the new m14 rules, it could be awkward if you both have Jaces out.
Shackles unfortunately just doesn't cut it with all the Abrupt Decays out there. I'd rather run Path to Exile or more sweepers.
Whoa, didn't even think about my Jace and their Jace with D. Sphere...Sucky. Good thing I don't see other Jace lists...Meh. I've been playing 4/3 CB/FoW as well. It's been doing good against all the fair builds I face as well as allows me to pitch CB to Force without cringing.
-ABC
Does anyone foresee this deck getting worse in the upcoming months now that the new legend and planeswalker rules are in? One of my fellow Legacy junkies who plays Esper Stoneblade thinks that Jace + Critters (e.g. Stoneblade or BUG) are better Jace decks since they are more proactive and actually present a good clock versus somewhat durdly, control-heavy Jace decks (i.e. Miracles), which will become strictly worse. I also feel I'm relearning how to play Jace now that two 'em can have a staring contest.
I recently went 0-3 playing a UW build (similar to Levy's list) and got decimated by Esper Stoneblade, Jund, and 12-Post. I drew very badly in the Stoneblade match and not to mention the pilot is a better player than me, the Jund player drew extremely well (found a Liliana like every goddamn time to which I had no answers), and durdled against 12-Post since I have no clock nor Wastelands. True, I'm just down on the build and probably need to switch to UWr for a bit, which I think will help to make it more proactive. I think I just answered my own question on how to strengthen the deck now that we're faced with new rules changes. Thanks The Source!
Whack lists currently playing:
Rector Nic Fit
Bizarro Stormy
Rest In Pieces
That and Jund/12-Post are bad/atrocious match-ups. I think the most of the meta isn't as bad for Miracles.Does anyone foresee this deck getting worse in the upcoming months now that the new legend and planeswalker rules are in? One of my fellow Legacy junkies who plays Esper Stoneblade thinks that Jace + Critters (e.g. Stoneblade or BUG) are better Jace decks since they are more proactive and actually present a good clock versus somewhat durdly, control-heavy Jace decks (i.e. Miracles), which will become strictly worse. I also feel I'm relearning how to play Jace now that two 'em can have a staring contest.
I recently went 0-3 playing a UW build (similar to Levy's list) and got decimated by Esper Stoneblade, Jund, and 12-Post. I drew very badly in the Stoneblade match and not to mention the pilot is a better player than me, the Jund player drew extremely well (found a Liliana like every goddamn time to which I had no answers), and durdled against 12-Post since I have no clock nor Wastelands. True, I'm just down on the build and probably need to switch to UWr for a bit, which I think will help to make it more proactive. I think I just answered my own question on how to strengthen the deck now that we're faced with new rules changes. Thanks The Source!
I brought Eli Kassis's build to my local weekly wednesday's tourny and it worked pretty well.
List for reference:
http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.ph...2&iddeck=77811
I added Clique for the Electrolyze and changed sideboard a bit to fit my meta.
I dodged Show and Tell and Goblins which battled in the finals. I went 3-1 losing first round to U/B Tezzeret, I had an out to topdeck Terminus or Helm but I drew Jace which wasnt enough against 2x 5/5 artifacts with me only having 6 lands. Beat MUD, Burn and RUG 2-0 each.
Jund is highly winnable and possibly close to favorable post-board with access to 3 Leylines, a 3rd Entreat, and Elspeth. 12-Post is pretty awful unless you have Blood Moon basically, although early Counter-Top can slow them down quite a bit.
I don't have the room to fit the 3 Leylines and I actually ended up cutting Elspeth in favor of different cards, so I'm curious to hear your thoughts on my decklist against Jund:
Lands
1 Mystic Gate
1 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Island
2 Plains
1 Karakas
Planeswalkers
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Artifacts
1 Helm of Obedience
4 Sensei's Divining Top
Enchantments
3 Rest in Peace
3 Counterbalance
1 Oblivion Ring
Instants and Sorceries
3 Force of Will
2 Enlightened Tutor
3 Terminus
2 Entreat the Angels
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
2 Spell Pierce
1 Misdirection
Creatures
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Seal of Cleansing
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Terminus
SB: 1 Entreat the Angels
SB: 2 Misdirection
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Blood Moon
SB: 1 Wear // Tear
I don't see much that I can cut. Against Jund, I'd probably bring in Misdirection, EtA, and Terminus while cutting Forces and maybe 1 Jace. Also, maybe Blood Moon for Oblivion Ring? I'm not quite sure where I could run 3 Leylines...
Shackles was awesome until Abrupt Decay was made. Now it's questionable.
Supreme Verdict is better anyways: mass removal, can't be countered, pitches to FoW. Perfect for a control deck that wants to supplement their Terminus/StP package.
The list you mentioned is atrocious. Double helm and Lightning bolt? You gotta be kidding me.
Everything in this deck dies to decay, it doesn't make it bad. When you face a deck using Abrupt Decay, do you side out all of your Rest in Peace, Counterbalance and Cliques? Personally, I'd rather power through by overwhelming my opponent with too many quality "must-answer" cards that only Decay can take care of. Counterbalance/Rest in Peace are great cards against Jund, Junk, and Shardless BUG, and so is Shackles. If they used their Decays to get rid of my RiP and/or CB, then they can't deal with Shackle, and that means a lot of trouble for them. I Don't like Verdict because, unlike Terminus, I usually have to tap out for it and I usually don't have 2 white sources as a part of my first 4 lands. Matchups where Verdict is your lifeline usually don't allow you to fetch nonbasics very comfortably. Shackle and Verdict take effect on the same turns except that Shackle will stay and give you a hold on the field. In my experience, one-time sweeps aren't always enough in a deck that wastes as many turns as this one digging for win-cons.
The reason why I asked about why anyone would play less than 4 counterbalance is because I originally played the 3/1 main/board split and then my friend asked me this very simple question: Why don't you play 4 Counterbalance in your Counterbalance deck? I know this deck is called Miracles but that's not what its really about. Most of my games are won through CB/Top locks + Clique beats/Jace. I have won only very few games off the back of Entreat for lethal. My entreats are usually for 1-3 Angels and allow me to get a board position that may or may not win me the game. The faster I get CB/Top online, the faster I can actually start winning the game... not before. Also, given how this deck is a CB/Top deck, it has glaring issues with CMC 2-3 spells. FoW, Terminus, Jace, Venser, Elspeth, and all of the goodness of this deck is simply inconvenient cost-wise... and yet, CB remains focal to this deck's strategy. Being stuck with 2 copies of CB in hand is marginal while leaving your Top unaccompanied for multiple turns is unacceptable.
I have been tinkering with all the color combinations possible (I even tried Intuition/Loam/Stage-Depths) and concluded that that black splash isn't required for the matchups it is really strong against while the red splash is much needed for SnT decks which happen to be very popular right now. While it is true that Vial decks really despise Engineered Plague, the good old Explosives tend to do enough damage for the rest of the deck is be able to clean up because not all Vial decks play 4 Cavern of Souls. I really tried to make up the "core" of this archetype and ended up with a very tight list with only 5 questionable slots (4th FoW, 4th CB, Counterspell, 4th Terminus or 1st Verdict, and 23 Land or 1st Ponder).
FoW is the best card I can have mainboard against most decks because you simply don't know what to expect at first and how you will have to react. I understand wanting to play less than 4 when you already have a solid counter suite that scales throughout the game (AKA: Blade Control) but for a deck that relies on resolving a Jace on an empty field and keep control of the game with it, taping out for a lethal Entreat, or locking a game down with an early CB/Top combination, I think FoW as a 4-of is a necessity. However, some lists play 3 and still put up good results so I have to leave it as a flex slot.
I discussed CB earlier and I have to leave it as a questionable slot because of the prevalence of lists playing 3/1 splits.
Counterspell is the middleground between FoW early, and FoW late. It grants the same effect at a different, and steady cost. In a deck that is starving for 2 CMC spells, I find Counterspell to be the best complement to its control suite. It isn't particularly great in itself but I find Miracle to be similarly difficult to pilot when too few Counterspells are availlable as when too many are present.
The 4th sweeper is usually a meta consideration and is the closest thing to a flex slot IMO.
22 or 23 lands are probably the right number of lands in this deck, depending on the lands themselves and the manipulation available. I don't think 4 Tops and 4 Brainstorms are enough because Miracles require a brainstorm effect to be considered cards, and because this deck requires a Top to be optimally functional. Shuffling is also an important component and it has to be at will. Stacking the top of your deck for CB is as important as shuffling it to find specific cards, and Ponder gives you that choice. Ponder is also one of the best T1 plays this deck has.
Has anybody else been having issues with Spell Pierce in the main? I really feel like that card is very unreliable in this particular deck.
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
I think 3/1 Counterbalance is okay, probably even the optimal choice. I played it at Strasbourg (see signature) and I continued doing so. You probably don't have the space/intent to play 4 MB due to serveral different reasons. Some lists just don't have space for that. In some MUs you don't really want to have Balance at all, and in others you don't need multiples - though in the vast majority of MUs you would want 4 MB - so to me personally it comes down to slot-problems.
4 Force of Will is just that good. You are right saying that you need answers that answer varied cards from decks/strategies you did not expect. Playing 3 often comes with a low bluecount, but I really think that 4 is correct right now - especially with the decline of Jund and the yet-again uprising of Combo, namely MonoU Show and Tell.
22 lands... 23 lands... oh this topic again :D I think the solution lies somewhere between. I decided to play 23, but including one Mishra's Factory - which shouldnt really count as a 100% land due to the colorless mana it produces and the ability to turn into a creature. I am still feeling comfortable with this choice.
Greetings
As I like this deck so much it is not DTB anymore...
I disagree; shackles is still good against most of the decks that run Decay, mainly because of 'Goyf obviously. Lots of people play Meddling Mage naming Decay and protect the Mage with CB/FoW, etc. This allows for the denial of their best removal spell, whether they like it or not. Also, IF Decay is your concern, why not just play a couple/3 Surgical Extraction? That way, you can bait it out and then not worry about it the rest of the game.
-ABC
You are probably right. What are the tools to handle BUG/Deathblade to push us back to the top? Or is it just that they are the flavour of the month decks?
I respectfully disagree. Your argument is solid and pretty much aligned with Joe/Oarsman's finding. However, do you remember how he lost to Dark Maverick at Seattle when it went for GSZ into G Teeg? EE is not fools proof. G Teeg can shut down many, many miracle cards. With Black, you can just Dread of Night + Humility, that would pretty much ruin all the white (death and taxes...etc) and some green decks (Maverick except dryad arbor).
If Death and Taxes and Stoneblade/Deathblade are popular in your local meta, I would still recommend Black splash.
If Show and Tell decks become popular, before you derive the conclusion of Red splash, try Ethersworn Canonist first.
Some of your questionable slots have been answered. Joe runs 1 Verdict and he's recently testing w/ Misdirection and Flusterstorm on his stream.
My roommate plays a very hostile Death and Taxes deck with Ghost Quarters, Leonin Arbiter, Revoker , Wastelands and all the usual white trash so I get to play that matchup a whole lot more than i'd like to. The black black with 2 Engineered Plagues in the SB has it really easy G2 and G3 but the red splash feels really good as well. If my meta was infested with DnT/Maverick decks, I would consider additional Sulfur Elementals before switching colors entirely. One thing is for sure though, whenever I land a Vedalken Shackles, he facepalms and I usually win it from there even if he sides in 3 Oblivion Rings and plays 4 Revokers main. Here is the list I have been using the most these past weeks:
Creatures (2)
2 Vendilion Clique
Spells (21)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
2 Entreat the Angels
3 Terminus
Others (14)
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
1 Rest in Peace
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Vedalken Shackles
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Lands (23)
1 Ponder
1 Karakas
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
5 Island
2 Plains
Sideboard (15)
2 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Wear // Tear
1 Celestial Purge
1 Terminus
2 Rest in Peace
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
For DnT I usually do:
-2 Spell Pierce +2 EE
-2 Counterspell +1 Terminus, +1 Wear // Tear
-1 Oblivion Ring +1 Sulfur Elemental
-1 Rest in Peace +1 Venser
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
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