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Thread: Miracle Control

  1. #10001
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    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by rancOr_ View Post
    I have a lot of experience in the Miracles mirror. I personally board out all 4 STP/ Terminus, 1 plains and 1 Jace (always leave 1 in) and sometimes 1 ETA (always leaving one in). If u dont keep in ETA/Mentor boarding out both Plains is fine..You can board out all removal if you play Izzet Staticaster, as this will deal with most creatures (SCM/V. Clique/Mentor) together with REB. Also 1-2 ETA as another out to overpower a resolved Mentor or win through CB lock (preferably w fluster backup).
    If they don't run Mentor its best to be on the draw if ur capable..
    So what happens if your opponent plays an ETA with protection? Cry?
    The purpose of any moat is to impede attack. Some are filled with water, some with thistles. Some are filled with things best left unseen.

  2. #10002

    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    Hi everyone,

    So I've been playing on leagues on MTGO from time to time with the following list (lots of 4-1 and 3-2 finishes but I've yet to 5-0...):

    4 Scalding Tarn
    2 Arid Mesa
    3 Tundra
    3 Volcanic Island
    3 Island
    2 Plains

    2 Mentor
    3 Snap

    4 Top
    4 Ponder
    4 BS
    4 STP
    4 Counterbalance
    2 Counterspell
    4 Terminus
    1 Entreat the Angels
    3 Jace
    4 FoW

    Side
    3 Clique
    1 Containment priest
    1 Izzet Staticaster
    2 RIP
    2 Wear//Tear
    2 Flusterstorm
    1 Council's Judgement
    3 Pyroblast

    So as I've seen the general concensus on this forum is that mentor is at best a sideboard card. I kind of agree with it and see the point. I've also tested versions with mentor in the side (and also no mentor and 2 entreat) but I have not seen a huge difference between mentor in the side vs in the main: I bring them out when they're bad vs boarding them in when they're good basically. And it's never that bad game 1 (even in fast MU it can be a fast winco)
    The idea behind mentor in the side is that your opponent will be boarding out their removal game 2-3. However, I've found that many opponent keep in some amount (sometimes all!) of their removal to deal with mentor even if they have not seen it game 1. This is especially true when I play in paper, where I've seen some players even side in specific hate cards against mentor game 2-3 (like the enchantment that gives -1 -1 to all white creatures). Obviously this is really good for me, but it does diminish the appeal of mentor.

    Against opponent that anticipate mentor that much, maybe not playing him at all is a better idea? I still like the card as it is a faster winco and easier to set up than an ETA, and it can also steal games by killing quickly/putting more pressure on an opponent after resolving a terminus.
    I've seen some lists running a Stoneforge package in the side rather than mentor, what is the concensus on that? In which MUs would it come in?

    I'm trying to update my list for a GPT this saturday, and after looking at the thread and various mtgtop8 results, it appears that it is a bit outdated. I'm expecting an open meta (usually tier 1-2 deck, a good amount of GBx, storm and delver).

    What would be the most "stock" list today?

  3. #10003

    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual View Post
    So what happens if your opponent plays an ETA with protection? Cry?
    Right I forgot why I dont post here anymore .. Thanks for reminding!

  4. #10004
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    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfThePanda View Post
    So is Mentor that important? I just want to see where my initial impression was of the mirror.
    Yes, it's pretty important as it's a non-blue win condition, and kills very fast. It's a must answer, another reason why counterspells with no restriction (FoW, Counterspell...) are so important.

    Quote Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual View Post
    I've never found Mentor to be all that valuable in the mirror, but I know a lot of people just bring him in anyway so I like to keep in at least 2 STP for him (and Clique and sometimes Snap) and some number of Terminus for when someone thinks it's safe to overextend with Mentor. It's also just a good safety card when your opponent ETAs. As for wincons in the mirror, Jace should be your priority. Protect him at all costs.
    Keeping StP for Mentor is a terrible idea, just a single monk after he's been cast is a serious threat.

    Quote Originally Posted by rancOr_ View Post
    I have a lot of experience in the Miracles mirror. I personally board out all 4 STP/ Terminus, 1 plains and 1 Jace (always leave 1 in) and sometimes 1 ETA (always leaving one in). If u dont keep in ETA/Mentor boarding out both Plains is fine..You can board out all removal if you play Izzet Staticaster, as this will deal with most creatures (SCM/V. Clique/Mentor) together with REB. Also 1-2 ETA as another out to overpower a resolved Mentor or win through CB lock (preferably w fluster backup).
    If they don't run Mentor its best to be on the draw if ur capable..
    Quote Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual View Post
    So what happens if your opponent plays an ETA with protection? Cry?
    I agree with this SBing. The idea is you have more relevant cards to counter the EtA since you're not stuck with crap like StP and Terminus. If they manage to force through an EtA, well, they had it and you didn't. Throwing a hypothetical argument out like this proves nothing.
    Quote Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual View Post
    Storm was killed by Leovold
    Quote Originally Posted by LegacyIsAnEternalFormat View Post
    The power of blue is overrated...I personally play Jund and I consistently top 4 FNMs with it.

  5. #10005

    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingbrago View Post
    Hi everyone,

    Against opponent that anticipate mentor that much, maybe not playing him at all is a better idea? I still like the card as it is a faster winco and easier to set up than an ETA, and it can also steal games by killing quickly/putting more pressure on an opponent after resolving a terminus.
    I've seen some lists running a Stoneforge package in the side rather than mentor, what is the concensus on that? In which MUs would it come in?

    I'm trying to update my list for a GPT this saturday, and after looking at the thread and various mtgtop8 results, it appears that it is a bit outdated. I'm expecting an open meta (usually tier 1-2 deck, a good amount of GBx, storm and delver).

    What would be the most "stock" list today?
    A control deck can use anything as its win-con, so I don't feel there is a point in going into why mentor vs. EtA. Long story short, many of your opponents would prefer to SB-out creature removal in favor of enchantment removal for obvious reasons. Some people find that SFM into Batterskull is a way to hold off Eldrazi aggro, you be the judge.

    The list you're running is not outdated, it's a good starting point. Your performance is not solely dependent on how fresh a list is. If anything, you might want to move CJ from SB to MD, replacing either an Entreat or a Mentor. If you want to gain edges in some MU, you could experiment with 1 Karakas.

  6. #10006
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    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Dissection View Post

    Keeping StP for Mentor is a terrible idea, just a single monk after he's been cast is a serious threat.
    Is not the only creature that STP would be good against. You know this (I even spelled it out) and you still decided to post a bait reply.


    I agree with this SBing. The idea is you have more relevant cards to counter the EtA since you're not stuck with crap like StP and Terminus. If they manage to force through an EtA, well, they had it and you didn't. Throwing a hypothetical argument out like this proves nothing.
    Why resign yourself to fate? The beauty of this deck is its ability to get itself out of what seems like a guaranteed losing position. But by entirely cutting one of the cards that facilitates this ability, you're hurting your chances at winning. There's also the fact that post board your opponent will be bringing in more creatures. So if you can't counter them all you're just going to sit back and let them kill you?
    The purpose of any moat is to impede attack. Some are filled with water, some with thistles. Some are filled with things best left unseen.

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    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual View Post
    Is not the only creature that STP would be good against. You know this (I even spelled it out) and you still decided to post a bait reply.

    Why resign yourself to fate? The beauty of this deck is its ability to get itself out of what seems like a guaranteed losing position. But by entirely cutting one of the cards that facilitates this ability, you're hurting your chances at winning. There's also the fact that post board your opponent will be bringing in more creatures. So if you can't counter them all you're just going to sit back and let them kill you?
    Blasts answer Snaps and Cliques, StP is just very poor in the mirror. If they're already in play they've done half their job.

    More creatures? Like what, Stoneforge Mystic? Extra Cliques? This isn't the job for Terminus. SfM is answered by Wear//Tear, Cliques by blasts as I said.

    You're resigning yourself to a guaranteed losing position when you're facing an opponent with extra cards to fight on the stack and you're stuck with StP and Terminus.

    Terminus doesnt actually 'answer' Mentor either. The deck has so much digging power it can shuffled around and found again. The mirror is about fighting on the stack, not the board.
    Quote Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual View Post
    Storm was killed by Leovold
    Quote Originally Posted by LegacyIsAnEternalFormat View Post
    The power of blue is overrated...I personally play Jund and I consistently top 4 FNMs with it.

  8. #10008
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    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Dissection View Post
    Blasts answer Snaps and Cliques, StP is just very poor in the mirror. If they're already in play they've done half their job.

    More creatures? Like what, Stoneforge Mystic? Extra Cliques? This isn't the job for Terminus. SfM is answered by Wear//Tear, Cliques by blasts as I said.

    You're resigning yourself to a guaranteed losing position when you're facing an opponent with extra cards to fight on the stack and you're stuck with StP and Terminus.

    Terminus doesnt actually 'answer' Mentor either. The deck has so much digging power it can shuffled around and found again. The mirror is about fighting on the stack, not the board.
    This is precisely why players like rancor and einherjer eventually decided that choosing to go second was a good idea. It is a very inbred theory though - it only works if the opponent agrees with you.

  9. #10009
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    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Dissection View Post
    Blasts answer Snaps and Cliques, StP is just very poor in the mirror. If they're already in play they've done half their job.

    More creatures? Like what, Stoneforge Mystic? Extra Cliques? This isn't the job for Terminus. SfM is answered by Wear//Tear, Cliques by blasts as I said.

    You're resigning yourself to a guaranteed losing position when you're facing an opponent with extra cards to fight on the stack and you're stuck with StP and Terminus.

    Terminus doesnt actually 'answer' Mentor either. The deck has so much digging power it can shuffled around and found again. The mirror is about fighting on the stack, not the board.
    You seem to think that by leaving in some number of STP/Terminus that you're not bringing in necessary SB cards.

    Here's my 75:

    3 Snapcaster Mage
    1 Vendilion Clique

    4 Brainstorm
    3 Ponder
    4 Sensei's Divining Top
    4 Counterbalance
    4 Force of Will
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    4 Terminus
    2 Entreat the Angels
    2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    2 Counterspell
    1 Council's Judgment
    1 Spell Pierce

    3 Tundra
    2 Volcanic Island
    4 Island
    2 Plains
    4 Flooded Strand
    4 Polluted Delta
    1 Arid Mesa
    1 Karakas

    Sideboard
    2 Flusterstorm
    2 Wear // Tear
    2 Pyroblast
    2 Monastery Mentor
    1 Vendilion Clique
    1 Rest in Peace
    1 Blood Moon
    1 Containment Priest
    1 Venser, Shaper Savant
    1 Moat

    How I would board for the mirror (assuming a typical list and I haven't seen a spicy MB card):

    -1 ETA
    -1 Spell Pierce
    -2 STP
    -2 Terminus
    -1 Plains

    +2 Flusterstorm
    +2 Wear // Tear
    +2 Pyroblast
    +1 Vendilion Clique

    I've brought in everything I have to fight over the stack (Venser is not such a card) while still having access to creature removal should I need it.

    Most lists run 3 REB effects in the board, so just board out a 3rd STP or Terminus if you want to fit it in.

    Of course the mirror is about fighting over the stack. But you should have cards that would be useful if/when you lose the battle over the stack.

    EDIT Re: Shuffling Mentor back up: sure, your opponent can do that, but hopefully by then you've found a counterspell (or CB floating a 3) for the Mentor so it doesn't resolve again. But you would never have that line of play if Mentor is already on the field.

    Quote Originally Posted by oarsman View Post
    This is precisely why players like rancor and einherjer eventually decided that choosing to go second was a good idea. It is a very inbred theory though - it only works if the opponent agrees with you.
    Which is why I always leave in some number of creature removal because it's the easiest way to "next level" your mirror opponent, even though I believe–and it seems you would agree, Joe–that most people already think this way ("Oh, it's the mirror he must be boarding out all removal so I'll just bring in more creatures!") which often makes my decision to keep in removal the correct one (it's never not been in my games I've played in the mirror thus far) so it's not really next leveling if you're just predicting what your opponent will be doing if they're following the autopilot. You can't win every stack battle, so why not have a back up plan for when that happens?

    Hell, one match in the mirror I even brought in a Moat since I saw my opponent was playing 2 (or 3) MB mentors and I won that game (after winning G1) with Moat on the field and my opponent had a Mentor.
    Last edited by CutthroatCasual; 05-10-2016 at 01:36 PM.
    The purpose of any moat is to impede attack. Some are filled with water, some with thistles. Some are filled with things best left unseen.

  10. #10010

    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual View Post
    You seem to think that by leaving in some number of STP/Terminus that you're not bringing in necessary SB cards.
    That you have space left for STP and Terminus suggests to me that your deck is not optimally tuned to play the mirror.

    Unfortunately - and this only my opinion, which is worth very little - is that, rather than change the deck, you're incorrectly validating this poor sideboarding schema with faulty logic. Just because you've sideboarded as optimally (which I don't think you have) as you can w/ your 75 does not mean that everything you have in your postboard 60 is optimal.

    Your post is painfully contradictory. You acknowledge that the mirror is about the stack but that having a backup is cautionary. What confuses me is how you plan on utilizing STP to fight on the stack or how you expect it to do anything once you've inevitably lost the fight over a Counterbalance. With your list, why wouldn't you want the 2nd Entreat, which could potentially bypass an in-play Counterbalance? Why are you cutting Spell Pierce when it is one of your extremely few ways to fight where it matters? You also said you leave in STP to stop Mentor, but it's already been pointed out that STP is ineffective at handling the Monk tokens - I believe you have yet to respond to that comment.

    People make snarky comments about this thread's poor quality because there's a lot of sarcastic crap being flung around everywhere that replaces actual formulated logic. Was your Entreat/Fluster/Cry quip really necessary? rancor was legitimately trying to explain something valuable and the immediate reply was a noninteractive "fuck you". What did you think it accomplished versus what did it actually accomplish? It's not just you, there's a lot of it everywhere by everyone - unfortunate, but that's just the nature of the internet. Most people don't have time for this, so they don't partake in it. Let's try and change that, yeah?

  11. #10011
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    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by AnziD View Post
    That you have space left for STP and Terminus suggests to me that your deck is not optimally tuned to play the mirror.
    I've never had difficulties in the mirror, and I've played against very experienced players. I wouldn't say I'm a great Miracles player so if I can do well with the list I don't agree with your assessment that the list isn't "properly tuned" for the mirror.

    Your post is painfully contradictory. You acknowledge that the mirror is about the stack but that having a backup is cautionary. What confuses me is how you plan on utilizing STP to fight on the stack or how you expect it to do anything once you've inevitably lost the fight over a Counterbalance.
    Are you implying I'll never win the fight on the stack over a CB? If so that's presumptuous. Just because I have 1 less REB than most other people doesn't mean I my opponent will always have more countermagic than me. There are also ways to deal with a resolved CB, or bypassing it entirely.

    With your list, why wouldn't you want the 2nd Entreat, which could potentially bypass an in-play Counterbalance?
    Because it's a clunky card outside of the first time I cast it. If I am casting it, most of the time I will have protection for it (or else I wouldn't be casting it). I'll usually never need a second one for backup, unless my opponent is playing Terminus. Then I would fight over that spell on the stack.

    Why are you cutting Spell Pierce when it is one of your extremely few ways to fight where it matters?
    It does hit an early CB or on-curve Jace, but most of the time in the mirror it won't counter what you want it to unless your opponent is bad with their mana. PBlast will counter what you want it to. The only thing I'm really worried about enough to keep in Pierce is CJ but that's not enough for me to keep it in.

    You also said you leave in STP to stop Mentor, but it's already been pointed out that STP is ineffective at handling the Monk tokens - I believe you have yet to respond to that comment.
    The idea is to get rid of Mentor before he makes tokens. If he does, I still have Terminus to get rid of everything.

    It also deals with other creatures, as I've said. To that, people responded that REB deals with those, as well. But that's stretching the 2 REBs thin, especially if I want to predominantly use them to fight over the stack. A third REB could free up the other two, but in my list that's what the Flusterstorms are for, and a 3rd REB won't get rid of a Mentor/Monk.
    The purpose of any moat is to impede attack. Some are filled with water, some with thistles. Some are filled with things best left unseen.

  12. #10012
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    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    So how many Wear // Tear do you guys bring in in anticipation of Pithing Needle/Null Rod? I have been doing 2, but I feel 1 may be better. Against BUG for example. Thoughts?

  13. #10013

    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by ironclad8690 View Post
    So how many Wear // Tear do you guys bring in in anticipation of Pithing Needle/Null Rod? I have been doing 2, but I feel 1 may be better. Against BUG for example. Thoughts?
    You need 2 enchantment/artifact removals. That I believe should not be disputed. Some might argue 3.

    If we want to do pros vs. cons:
    Wear//Tear
    Pro: floating via CB, you get to counter 1 or 2. Fuse can be huge against opposing Miracles; most of time when I get to fuse, it's been good.
    Con: requires R to destroy artifact. If the R has to come from Volcanic Island, then you're exposed to Wasteland.

    Disenchant
    Pro: no R required, rock solid consistent, no Wasteland issue.
    Con: no added benefit with CB, no fuse benefit.

  14. #10014

    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    There aren't too many matchups that I would board in only 1 Wear // Tear instead of 2. You can't leave yourself super exposed to random hate pieces such as Pithing Needle/Sulfuric Vortex/Null Rod etc etc etc. Against BUG specifically - I would 100% always bring in both Wear // Tears. There's just too many valuable targets that they will have access to postboard. Sylvan Library/Needle/Null Rod just to name a few.
    "Take your time."

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    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    W//T is one of those strange cards where we always board it in, but it's not good enough to play MB because it will usually have no targets G1.
    The purpose of any moat is to impede attack. Some are filled with water, some with thistles. Some are filled with things best left unseen.

  16. #10016
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    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by ironclad8690 View Post
    So how many Wear // Tear do you guys bring in in anticipation of Pithing Needle/Null Rod? I have been doing 2, but I feel 1 may be better. Against BUG for example. Thoughts?
    W//T or Disenchant not only hit rod/needle but vs bug it hits library which is a common bring in. Vs Shardless the card does a ton of work. I often bring in 2 Disenchant.

  17. #10017
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    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    Ok, so after some more matches I am starting to get a more accurate picture of the matchups.

    I ended up 2-3 in another league, but thankfully it was due to pilot error and variance more than anything.

    Esper Stoneblade (Hayseed, guy seemed good): 1-2 (g2 equips and Lingering Souls got there, g3 I couldn't answer his second Gideon, Ally of Zendikar)
    Shardless BUG: 1-2 (g3 huge punt from Lili Ultimate, which I had never had happen to me on MODO before, I thought it asked which pile I wanted to keep rather than sac. He had 1 minute left on clock, me 12 minutes, I sac a pile with blood moon while he only has swamp as basic as well as a tarpit and some duals, otherwise no pressure)
    BUG Delver: 2-0
    Miracles: 2-0
    Sylvan Plug with Tireless Tracker instead of Choke: 1-2 (Chalice @ 1 + Gaddock Teeg, me never finding either of the 2 Wear//Tear I brought in).

    I began another league after this, in which I am currently 1-1

    Aggro Loam: 0-2 (seems like it can be rough, especially if they have mox diamond hands with Thalia g2-3. Worth leaving in all 4 Force of Will?)
    Storm: 2-0

    My impressions of Nahiri in the Ponder build are that she is quite good against other fair blue decks and combo decks (3 turn clock), but can struggle vs non-blue fair decks where mentor/entreat would seem much better. Also this build seems like the weakest to Chalice of the Void, but I could be wrong. At least Mentor/Entreat can provide a board presence under Chalice, but the trade-off in matchups could be worth it. I guess we will see if the Nahiri trend sticks around.

  18. #10018
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    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    4c Loam is a MU I have plenty of experience with. It never feels good leaving in FoWs against "fair" decks, but you do need to find a way to stop a T1 CotV or GSZ for Teeg. On the draw, I would keep 3 in and on the play keep 2.

    Not finding W//T is just bad beats; card is insane in the MU.
    The purpose of any moat is to impede attack. Some are filled with water, some with thistles. Some are filled with things best left unseen.

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    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    I was talking with Jaytron earlier about this, but for those of you modo players out there: what are your stops? I have default + my own end step, since very often I like to receive priority again after my opponents resolve anything at EOT. I do not have "Miracle bluffing" on, and stops at the draw step/upkeep/opp's main phases seem extraneous.

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    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by ironclad8690 View Post
    I was talking with Jaytron earlier about this, but for those of you modo players out there: what are your stops? I have default + my own end step, since very often I like to receive priority again after my opponents resolve anything at EOT. I do not have "Miracle bluffing" on, and stops at the draw step/upkeep/opp's main phases seem extraneous.
    I'd like to know too. I play at a decent speed on paper, but the clock is definitely my enemy on modo.

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