do you have a list of the new "grim flyer" shardless you talk about?
You're seeing up to four cards from the Ponder, then a Guide trigger (if you didn't Force), a draw step and a Brainstorm if needed to find a second land. If you don't find one that deep it's just tough luck, the hand is perfectly fine in my opinion.Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual
Hello guys,
My LGS is recently flooded by Death and Taxes. For that reason I added now a Pyroclasm to my SB.
I am also seriously thinking about including Teferi's Response as a 2 off in my SB to fight especially Ports and further Waselands as well. Does anyone has some experience with that card?
I just saw it by looking at this list: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...?DeckID=107884
Greetz Michael
I haven't gotten to travel much for Legacy lately, but I played in a 1k yesterday and got 5th.
I was very happy with the list I settled on and would recommend it to anyone.
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Matchups:
2-0 Maverick - Easy matchup. Clear up the board on the end of turn 3, drop jace and/or mentor and win. Repeat for game 2.
1-0-1 Shardless BUG - Both games ended with me at 1 life. Game one I almost conceded when my opponent had Jace, Lily, goyf, DRS, strix, agent, to my board of lands and top and no hand. I got lucky and was able to clear up the board with jace and snap/swords and then kill the planeswalkers with a mentor and turned it around completely.
1-1-1 UR pyromancer? - I never saw delvers, but did get dazed, stifled and wasted. Game 1 I played aggressively into dazes and got punished. My opponent did not understand how some of his cards worked but still managed to put up a good fight. When the round ended I had Top, CB, 2 mentors and 4 tokens in play. The game was very over, but we ran out of time.
2-0 Maverick - I made lots of mistakes and still won with the usual plan.
2-0 Storm - Game 1 around turn 4 he cleared my hand of relevant things, but I was floating a counterspell and had a top. He went off and I countered his tutor. Mentor killed him 2 turns later. Game 2 I blasted 3 cantrips so he couldn't find decay+green and landed a turn 3 or 4 CB+Top. I cast a mentor on turn 5 and then EOT made 2 tokens. Next turn I chained tops for a second turn 6 kill.
2-1 Mogg Catcher Stompy - We could have drawn but I go to tournaments because I like to play legacy. His deck was sweet and I got to learn how meld works. Game 1 he drew lots of lock pieces but no threats and I got him with an early mentor. Game 2 I cast 1 spell because of moon, cavern and chalice. He got to Kiki a goblin settler. Game 3 he had null rod but no other lock pieces and I Jaced him out of the game.
At 5-0-1 I was top seed but then lost 1-2 to bant stoneblade. I mulled to 5 in games 1 and 3 and got wasted/stifled/dazed to death. Game 2 I had an unimpressive 7 with unimpressive draws and still got there because this matchup is not usually a bad one.
Thoughts on the list:
- I may drop a pyoblast for a counterspell in the board, because 4 blasts has been overkill against delver and I would rather have counterspell against midrange decks like BUG or stoneblade.
- Engineered explosives is awesome. Every time had one it was better than CJ.
- I never missed entreat. Mentor fills the same role, but is much better due to only costing 3 and not needing any set up. 3 Maindeck mentors was the perfect number I thought, I found them when I needed and never had too many.
- Predict was decent, but it could something else, maybe another counter or preordain.
Congrats. on the finish.
Disapprove 20 lands MD with 1 Mountain SB. I would just move a Counterspell to SB and have the Mountain MD.
When you've mentioned Maverick, it's very generic and not too descriptive. I assume you're referring to the GSZ version, does it splash Black?
No DnT? Would like to know how would this version do against DnT.
I used to hate the SB mountain, but right now it seems really good. I often SB down to 20 lands anyways, and having a colorless land in game 1 is really bad. 20 Lands is enough against all non-wasteland decks, and against wasteland decks, if I need red I want it off a basic.
It was GWb GSZ maverick, pretty standard builds of the deck in the current meta.
I have played a lot of games against D&T since it got all its new toys and the matchup is positive. Having 2 EE, 2 W/T post board is huge, as they cannot get a vial to stick most games. They get a better lategame with recruiter, but having 3 mentors means you don't have to try too hard to get a threat that will close out the game.
I've been playing the SB mountain since I started testing Miracles again and it's quite good, I wouldn't maindeck it because it's honestly bad against every non wasteland deck.
This is my list at the moment
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Entreat the Angels
2 Monastery Mentor
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
2 Arid Mesa
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Plains
3 Island
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
4 Terminus
2 Spell Snare
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Vendilion Clique
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Mountain
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Wear // Tear
SB: 2 Sulfur Elemental
The only change I would make if needed may be to swap che Mountain for a Containment Priest, but the meta would have to be polarized with Show decks instead of Taxes as it is right now.
"You either die a Onesto-Player, or live long enough to see yourself become a Dredger"
Hello, everyone!
I won moscow's september league of legacy with this Ojutai build
3 snapcaster mage
3 monastery mentor
1 vendilion clique
2 jace, the mind sculptor
4 force of will
4 counterbalance
2 counterspell
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 sensei's divining top
1 predict
4 swords to plowshares
4 terminus
4 flooded strand
3 scalding tarn
2 arid mesa
1 karakas
2 tundra
2 plains
7 island
sideboard:
2 back to basics
2 ethersworn canonist
1 venser, shaper savant
1 vendilion clique
2 disenchant
1 devastation tide
1 hydroblast
2 surgical extraction
2 flusterstorm
1 supreme verdict
1 turn: vs team america w/ lightning bolt 1-1 draw
2 turn: vs elves 2-0 won
3 turn: vs lands 2-0 won
4 turn: vs omni-sneak 0-2 lost
5 turn: vs dredge 2-1 won
top-4: vs lands 2-0 won (same guy from turn 3)
final: vs omni-sneak 2-1 won (same guy from turn 4)
devastation tide is the weakest card in the list and need to be replaced)
At what concentration of red cards in the SB should one start thinking about putting in a basic Mountain in the board? I currently play 6 SB cards with red in their casting costs.
The purpose of any moat is to impede attack. Some are filled with water, some with thistles. Some are filled with things best left unseen.
The real consideration for playing Mountain is the matches those cards come in against, not the concentration. For example, if you want to bring in three or more red blast effects against Wasteland decks (i.e., Delver), it's probably best to have a Mountain. If, on the other hand, you want to bring in bloodmoon against Eldrazi and Lands, that Mountain isn't as necessary.
Latest results for Ovino is in, 216 players, miracles clinched 2nd, 3rd and 4th.
2nd Tomas Vlcek
20 LANDS
1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
3 Island
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Plains
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
5 CREATURES
2 Monastery Mentor
3 Snapcaster Mage
24 INSTANTS and SORC.
4 Brainstorm
1 Council's Judgment
2 Counterspell
1 Entreat the Angels
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
11 OTHER SPELLS
4 Counterbalance
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Sensei's Divining Top
SIDEBOARD
1 Containment Priest
3 Flusterstorm
1 Izzet Staticaster
2 Pyroblast
1 Pyroclasm
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Surgical Extraction
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Wear / Tear
3rd Angelo Cadei
20 LANDS
1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
3 Island
2 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
5 CREATURES
2 Monastery Mentor
3 Snapcaster Mage
24 INSTANTS and SORC.
4 Brainstorm
1 Council's Judgment
2 Counterspell
1 Entreat the Angels
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
11 OTHER SPELLS
4 Counterbalance
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Sensei's Divining Top
SIDEBOARD
2 Containment Priest
3 Flusterstorm
1 Kozilek's Return
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Surgical Extraction
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Wear / Tear
4th Ivan Fuseri
20 LANDS
2 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
3 Island
2 Plains
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
5 CREATURES
2 Monastery Mentor
3 Snapcaster Mage
26 INSTANTS and SORC.
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
1 Entreat the Angels
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
2 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
9 OTHER SPELLS
3 Counterbalance
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Sensei's Divining Top
SIDEBOARD
3 Flusterstorm
1 Mountain
3 Pyroblast
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Wear / Tear
Looks like 20 lands miracles with or without predict(depending on playstyle) has been putting up very consistent results in the hands of vlcek, cadei and gutbrod.
Congrats guys! Don't stop the miracles!
I'm surprised Vlcek and Cadei went back to 2 Counterspells, glad the Predict fever is over, for the Europeans at the least.
are we cheating on graveyard hate too much? 2 Surgical, some even cut down to 1? I guess Priest is... semi graveyard SB.
Priest is much more for GSZ Vial Hypergenesis Show and Tell Sneak Attack
Faerie Macabre and Surgical Extraction have destroyed the concept itself of Reanimator. Every deck can play free (uncounterable or flashbackable) graveyard hate..
Ah yeah, Grafdigger Cage also is a card.
I need to reliably cast Pyroblast against Shardless and Sulfurs/Tears against Taxes, this is enought for me to play se SB mountain, it also helps a lost against both delver and eldrazi, and is reasonably good against loam decks aswell.
@The ovino lists, yes there it is my list, I should be third but it doesn't really matter, I went 13/3 considering both the main and side event, im quite unhappy to have missed the top8 in the side event by rating but that's life.
In the two days I played
3 Show decks, I lost to one which had both in G1 and 2 turn 2 combo with FoW backup
1 Delver deck, and I lost to it getting pretty unlucky and my opponent was good
3 Taxes, I lost to one which got nuts in game 2 and had an interesting SB plan revolving around SOWar&Peace and Mirran Crusaders
1 Cephalid Breakfast with white recruiters, it still was easy despite it playing caverns/vials
3 Mirrors, I easily won 2 of them and went to time in the third and got a split/concession there
2 Shardless, which i consider a quite good MU
1 Eldrazi, and even if my list is not well rounded against it the game went allright
1 Dredge, played poorly by my opponent
1 Elves, pretty much a Mu you can't lose if you know what you are doing
And in my online testing im at 90-95% winrate across the board, with no real bad MU, it worth noticing that I'm testing on cockatrice, so the skill of the opponent is often non existant and there are almost no really good player to test with most of the times.
"You either die a Onesto-Player, or live long enough to see yourself become a Dredger"
What I've been playing the past ~2-3 months has been the 4 Mentor/0 Jace/2 Predict build that was developed by Minniehajj, et al.:
(However, I've recently switched my list to 3 Counterbalance and 2 Counterspell; and I run 2 copies of PoP instead of the 4th REB effect and 3rd Clique).
It has maindeck mountain because it runs two maindeck EE (with only 2 Volcanics). I think for even one maindeck EE, a basic mountain is a worthy include, but I can see dropping it and then readjusting the fetches and Volcanics accordingly. Additionally, if you expect a greedy or blue-heavy metagame, Mountain in the 75 can also open the possibility of maindecking the hate cards like Blood Moon (for the former) or Pyroblast (for the latter). Hell, even Sulfur Elemental if you're on the Entreat/Jace plan and expect a lot of Death & Taxes (now that their new tutor is white, not red).
~~~
I think it's build-related: Counterspells, in general, are stronger against a non-blue metagame, I think--or at least they keep a flexibility for non-curve cards and have stronger power lategame in-hand. The maindeck EEs are really interesting--especially Vlcek/Cadei's lists, which run a split 1 EE/1 Council's Judgment.
None of those lists are all-in on Mentor, and I think are better positioned against the BUG lists because they all have Jaces, Entreats, and (SB) Cliques--with only Fuseri's list having fewer than 3 in the side.
I don't know much about the open metagame in Europe, but this indicates to me that their (Shardless) BUG decks have made adjustments to the speed of the metagame caused by Eldrazi. (At that, BUG lists occupied 2 of the Top8, including the winner).
When the meta is really really fast--and prevalent with Chalice--then Predict is stronger than Jace because Jace is slow and will get run over. As the metagame slows down, you see more BUG, D&T, and assorted midrange decks, Jace and Entreat become stronger because they blank spot removal win the grinding game.
"Predict fever" in the lists we've seen I think reflect this. My testing and theoretical understanding have led me to believe that Jace and Predict occupy the same design space for card advantage, and won't usually be found in the same lists.
Last edited by t3hmyth; 10-04-2016 at 09:20 AM. Reason: Forgot to add that I play PoP in the side
Just touching on a few things here: Angelo, Tomas, et al. don't play predict anymore because even though they enjoy playing a durdly deck, they desire more action cards. Predict requires a few stylistic considerations, and you reduce the amount of cards in your deck that "do things." They believe in durdling, to a degree. They moved down to 20 lands along with us, and each played 1 Predict at GP Prague, but never tested a list centered around the "Predictable" mentality, i.e. more than 1 =P. They don't often change their decklists, and even if they do, it's usually one-card-at-a-time and not as a concept.
Having spoken to Angelo at length, I respect a lot of his opinion but he won't really adjust his deck very often since a) he's very practiced with his 70/75 and b) why fix what isn't broken?
They are absurdly good players and likely keep paces with the lists they are in practice with. Therefore, they never had any "Predict fever."
Re: Jace vs Predict: It's more of a consideration between how and when you're wanting to pull ahead, rather than them competing for the same deckbuilding space. They both function as true Card Advantage, but Predict is overall more quick, whereas Jace plays into the longer game more well. I don't think they necessarily compete for the same slots, I think it's more like how late you intend to go. With Jace, you have the ability to play more flexibly and have the game go longer, but with Predict, you can convert earlier on and more often, thus allowing short-term advantages. A deck can definitely play both, which just means you're wanting both a bridge from the early game into the midgame AND a bridge between the midgame into the lategame.
Something I want to touch on a little bit is the concepts of preference and style that seem to be ambigious terms that a lot of players seem to be "allergic" to. What I mean by this is that people get hung up on lists and card choices and don't seem to truly understand the concept of "style" and practice.
I'll use the most recent results from BoM Paris and Ovinogeddon as a good example. People balk at the usage of Predict, still, to this day, even though lists w/ Predict definitely occupy more and more of the metagame. Gutbrod won BoM Paris with a list that's very reminiscent of Predict builds from around GP Columbus/Prague. He likes the style of the deck, what it provides as far as "gameplan" is concerned: i.e. Predict into spells, fuel mentor, trade, win.
I played Angelo/Vlcek's style of deck for a very very long time, even before my own apparent "Predict Fever" and, stylistically, I like it a lot. I even went back to it a few weeks ago and took home trophies for 2 1k's (snuck a Predict in there, I couldn't help myself =P) but it all comes down to practice anyway.
A good miracles player has the capability to succeed with almost any decklist, since all the decks are essentially very close to one another. What we discuss here are the nuances of 1-2 cards that are all dependent on preference anyway. If you seem to enjoy a particular "style" of miracles, like Joe's patented Legendary Miracles and the flexibility that provides, that doesn't mean that you can't win a tournament with a list incorporating 4 Predict. However, you'll see yourself winning more, playing better, and enjoying the game significantly more, if you're playing a style of deck you enjoy. I'm sure Joe could pick up my 75, and crush a GP with it, since he's much much better than I. The same can be said for Angelo picking up Legendary Miracles, or Marcus picking up 4 Mentor Daze Miracles (heh...), but what perpetuates deck construction and lists that you see people play and do well in events with, ultimately, is preference and style. One strategy might be obviously better than another, given certain metas, etc; but you're always gonna have that one guy playing RIP Helm miracles because he likes it and enjoys it more than other builds, and he might just be good enough to win and do well with it.
This doesn't mean that when a list top 8's with no dual lands, or wins a GP with Daze, that the sky is falling and that's obviously the best deck to play and anyone who says otherwise is just straight up wrong. It just means that player played well, liked the deck he was playing, and ran juuuuust a bit luckier than everyone else.
I'd like it if people kept an open mind when discussing decks, and we take each evaluation of lists that do well at events with a slight grain of salt, and instead of preaching these lists as law, look at what each specific card choice means. For example, in the Cadei/Vlcek lists, the 1-of EE and CJ were there as a response to Eldrazi and DnT, since it's looking like DnT is the among the best decks in Legacy once again, and Gutbrod's list from BoM also had 2 Pyroclasms because of this.
Tl;Dr: In the wise words of Alexander Hayne: "Cards don't matter."
Congrats on your finish Ivan! Just some questions regarding your list. Why cut 1 counterbalance for counterspell. The spell snares were more for combo and perhaps eldrazi (chalice @ 1)?
Hi everyone,
I also am alterning between 3 and 4 counterbalance since AnziD popularized this build. Having only 3 can be a liability since sometimes you don't find it in time, but it also means you are less likely to be "counterbalance-flooded", or draw one when you don't have an active top. I play an additional counterspell in the 4th CB slot
I'm playing in a Eternal Weekend trial on saturday (I think it will be my only possibility to try and get my byes for the event). This is the list I run at BOM Paris (6-3 for 26th place, losing to shardless -he went on to top8 afterwards, Soldier stompy and top8 RB reanimator)
20 Lands
4 Flooded strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
4 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
2 Volcanic
3 Tundra
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Mentor
4 Top
4 Plow
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
2 Predict
3 CB
2 Jace
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Terminus
4 FoW
About the maindeck, I'm really satisfied, just considering cutting the second counterspell for a 4th CB. I tested in some mtgo leagues with the 4 CB, but couldn't really tell if it was better or not...
About the sideboard, here's what I took to BOM:
4 Red blast effects
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
1 Containment priest
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Council's Judgement (Hate the WW with my manabase though. Maybe second explosives?)
1 Nahiri the Harbinger (mostly for the mirror, also good against shardless. Didn't play Gideon or Elspeth due to WW. Maybe not impactful enough?)
2 Wear/tear
1 Counterspell
I think the sideboard can be optimized. I usually run 3 fluster on mtgo but only own 2 in paper. My main concern for eternal weekend is Death & Taxes (and it's the main reason of this post). As I test mostly on mtgo, I have not faced the new D&T lists, and I also generally lack experience in the matchup due to the non-existence of the deck online.
I can see many of you run Pyroclasms effects in the board: are these necessary? Any tips on playing against the updated D&T/what changes relatively to older lists?
I don't think Counterbalance needs to be an early game play, it's needed just against burn decks and in mirror, but I expected a lot of Taxes/Eldrazis and stuff like that.
Also CB is not a strong play in mirror post board, you can't really afford to tap out for it so and the game usually gets into the late game so finding one is not a problem even playing three of them.
Spell Snares is in my opinion one of the most powerful card we can play right now, the cards we are most likely going to lose to are all countered by it, the main weakness of the deck is to not be able to deal with early game noncreature aggression, Snares give us an insane edge in the mirror, which is the MU I'm most worried about, and saves us against the infamous Chalices, it also is a game winning tempo gain if resolves against taxes, it may backfire because the pack both caverns and vials but if we get to cast a snare on curve we are likely going to win.
It's also important to notice that I prefer to play a lot of counters, and that i don't think we need any "already on board" soluton such as Judgements or Explosives, I used to play a lot of counters heavy control decks and it feels like a stronger strategy to me.
"You either die a Onesto-Player, or live long enough to see yourself become a Dredger"
There're many issues with your assessments.
I don't understand your statement about cb-flooded. If you've already resolved one, it doesn't hurt to float a CB to counter cmc 2. If you're playing against tribal decks, then it doesn't matter if you happen to find 1 or 4 into your hand, they are all useless against Cavern and/or Vial in play anyway.
Nahiri is not that good against Shardless. It doesn't interact against Vision, can't protect itself from Tarpit, can't put pressure on opposing Liliana or Jace.
Goblin players like to sandbag a Matron/Ringleader in case of post-Terminus rebuilding. DnT is now doing the same with Recruiter, by slowly chaining Recruiter + Flicker to rebuild the board post-Terminus.
With your Mana base, isn't it pretty simple for Lands players to tapped down your only plains at your EoT to make 20/20 to kill you?
I don't understand the CJ in the SB, not with that Mana base.
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