Miracle Control

[zenitramleirdag]

i could be wrong, but i think counterbalance should've gotten the hammer instead..banning top also hurts other decks too..in all honesty, i hated playing against miracles, but banning top seems wrong..sorry for the loss..

[Noctalor]

i could be wrong, but i think counterbalance should've gotten the hammer instead..banning top also hurts other decks too..in all honesty, i hated playing against miracles, but banning top seems wrong..sorry for the loss..

Survival got banned, not Vengevine.

Top got banned, not the garbage cards that became godly thanks to it.
Let's be realistic, in a vacuum terminus, entreat and counterbalance are just bad cards.

[Parcher]

Miracles didn't get banned. Top did.

That's 4 cards in the deck. There are countless cards in Legacy that manipulate the top of your library. There are countless cards in Legacy that draw at instant speed. Just none that are as cheap, efficient, asymmetrical, and resilient as Top. Or that do both. If you want to effectively run Entreat, Terminus, and Counterbalance in the same shell, you most definitely can. The deck just won't be the best in the format anymore.


EDIT; All these people bitching that it should have been Terminus. That's the problem, not Top. That their deck just can't beat a 1-mana instant-speed Wrath+tuck. Well I just hope people use all the resources available in Legacy to keep Terminus alive, and these players out.

[CptHaddock]

Miracles didn't get banned. Top did.

That's 4 cards in the deck. There are countless cards in Legacy that manipulate the top of your library. There are countless cards in Legacy that draw at instant speed. Just none that are as cheap, efficient, asymmetrical, and resilient as Top. Or that do both. If you want to effectively run Entreat, Terminus, and Counterbalance in the same shell, you most definitely can. The deck just won't be the best in the format anymore.

If people think for themselves how are they going to copy the exact 75 that did well on mtgo or at a large legacy tournament though?

[Minniehajj]

Miracles didn't get banned. Top did.

That's 4 cards in the deck. There are countless cards in Legacy that manipulate the top of your library. There are countless cards in Legacy that draw at instant speed. Just none that are as cheap, efficient, asymmetrical, and resilient as Top. Or that do both. If you want to effectively run Entreat, Terminus, and Counterbalance in the same shell, you most definitely can. The deck just won't be the best in the format anymore.


EDIT; All these people bitching that it should have been Terminus. That's the problem, not Top. That their deck just can't beat a 1-mana instant-speed Wrath+tuck. Well I just hope people use all the resources available in Legacy to keep Terminus alive, and these players out.

It's not that simple. The last bastion of control as a tier one deck just fell, and you cannot expressly try to simply replace top and expect to spike an event with it. It's not a realistic goal when all of the replacements suck or are slow. Efficacy is the name of the game in a tier one strategy. My goal in Legacy is to win, and I played and worked on the best deck, but I also held myself to the sphere that I need to be playing a control deck because this was the last format that it was truly possible to do. Miracles was the last tier one deck left in pretty much each format, and now that it's gone, it's not as simple as playing a subpar card and trying to do the same thing. The deck was tier one explicitly because it was so efficient, and that was centered around Top. If you want to play control now, you simply don't have the ability to be as efficient as you used to be. It's not as simple as replacing a random 4 of card, you have to replace the backbone of the deck.

Miracle control is dead, there's no argument, and we all need to go our separate ways. I will attempt to make control viable once again, but I'm sure others will do what they will. Legacy is wide open and everyone should continue playing of course, but do not make light of the fact that the last bastion of control is now dead.

[Parcher]

You're making two separate arguments. Miracles doesn't have to be the best deck. And now it isn't. If you don't want to play it because you care more about winning than what you use to win, that's on you. There is absolutely zero doubt that the deck as it existed is gone. But all the other cards are still legal. And the vast majority are extremely powerful. Claiming that the deck is dead, and all the Miracle cards are wasted now is simply untrue. They can still be used, and manipulated at instant speed to function. Just not to the unfair level they had. All these complaints boil down to "I want to have the best deck", not "they banned my expensive Legacy deck".

[Minniehajj]

You're making two separate arguments. Miracles doesn't have to be the best deck. And now it isn't. If you don't want to play it because you care more about winning than what you use to win, that's on you. There is absolutely zero doubt that the deck as it existed is gone. But all the other cards are still legal. And the vast majority are extremely powerful. Claiming that the deck is dead, and all the Miracle cards are wasted now is simply untrue. They can still be used, and manipulated at instant speed to function. Just not to the unfair level they had. All these complaints boil down to "I want to have the best deck", not "they banned my expensive Legacy deck".

It's more.... a control deck isn't tier one anymore, that I'm trying to establish as being an awful thing. It will take time to adjust, once a metagame shapes up, but I think control overall will be really bad for a while. I don't care about them banning the expensive legacy deck, I do care about them banning the last control deck outright.

[Parcher]

Fair argument. Though some would argue that Shardless is both Control, and Tier 1. It remains to be seen if a Tier1 Control deck can now exist that could not have with Miracles in Legacy as it existed.

[Crimhead]

Fair argument. Though some would argue that Shardless is both Control, and Tier 1. It remains to be seen if a Tier1 Control deck can now exist that could not have with Miracles in Legacy as it existed.

I think he means a control deck that isn't midrange-control. Having a hard control deck adds something to the meta that Goyf or SFM control does not.

[Minniehajj]

I think he means a control deck that isn't midrange-control. Having a hard control deck adds something to the meta that Goyf or SFM control does not.

Exactly. I hate the clunky aspects of things like Shardless Agent and Stoneforge Mystic, and I really don't want to have to play either of those cards. I'm all about efficacy, and that land is not something I think will be very good.

[Crimhead]

Exactly. I hate the clunky aspects of things like Shardless Agent and Stoneforge Mystic, and I really don't want to have to play either of those cards.

I play Lands, and I enjoy playing against a (real) control deck that doesn't instantly (and smoothly) transition into an aggro deck against me.

I have to say that this cancels 90% of the reason not to play Chalice of the Void in any deck of mine and I suppose this is true for many other people.

If you are playing Maverick or Jund - add the CotV and upgrade to Aggro Loam.

If you are playing Lands, keep it in the board.

If you are playing BUG, Blade, Elves, D&T, Storm, Sneak Show, Infect, Delver, or Burn, I'd give it a pass.

[Parcher]

What is "Hard Control"? Do you mean "stack control"? It doesn't exist. Even Loessett was adamant that Miracles was a board control deck. And he was right. In fact, in the face of Decay, Miracles stack control became downright anemic. Delver had better stack control. Do you mean creatureless? We can discard the Legend and Mentor builds of Miracles right off. And I guarantee you I saw Anuraag win more games with Snap beats than with EOTEntreatfor5youlose.

[apple713]

If I remember correctly no card banned after the start of the format ever got unbanned in legacy, top is 99% gone forever.

Land Tax maybe? not sure when it was banned but it seems unlikely that it started the format banned.

Also, land tax seems to have the potential to cause a much slower game if you are searching and shuffling deck every turn. BUT its not played so it flys under the radar for now.

[Crimhead]

What is "Hard Control"? Do you mean "stack control"?

No. I would say "permission control" for that. Delver and Midrange decks employ permission control, as does Miracles.

Do you mean creatureless?

I mean a certain capacity for aggression. Goyf and SFM decks swing at me with early and beefy threats by turn three. Hard control decks rarely or never can put up that kind of pressure and essentially play as an aggro deck should the game state call for it.

We can discard the Legend and Mentor builds of Miracles right off. And I guarantee you I saw Anuraag win more games with Snap beats than with EOTEntreatfor5youlose.

Mentor Miracles is leaning away from hard control. Still they often ran relatively few, and it takes time to find one and set up pressure. Unlike a turn 2 Goyf or SFM.

Even in Legend Miracles those creatures are slower and less efficient as pure beaters. Unlike Goyf.
Killing with Snappy over 10 turns does not qualify as a smooth transition to aggro mode.

I'm not denying that Midrange decks can be control decks. Midrange decks by definition employ elements that can be used for either attack or defense.

Hard control decks are a class of control decks that are almost purely dedicated to defense and cannot as easily change gears and apply pressure. Such decks have fallen out of favour, but the distinction is real (despite much denial). Just like Delver is aggro/control and not a "pure" aggro deck (see Affinity or Sligh), Blade and BUG are not "hard" control decks.

WotC's push for value creatures over the past ten years has pretty much obsoleted decks dedicated entirely to defense or attack Miracles was the last hold-out on the control end (despite the argument that it may also have been starting to slip down the midrange slope).

[infiniteJ]

May I humbly suggest people looking to still play a UW control deck look back at the caw cartel decks? For about a year, I played "Miracles" without counterbalance and with only 0 to 2 tops, because I personally did not enjoy playing with the cards. I had good success in 4 round weekly events, although never sleeved it up at bigger tournaments. The combination of cantrips and a solid UW manabase will always be strong. You don't even have to splash red anymore if you don't want to.

My list was invariably something along the lines of:

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2-4 Preordain
2 relic of progenitus (for those instant speed wraths and now hates on drs)
4 Stp
2 Snapcaster
2 SFM
4 Squadron hawk (personal preference, were great vs miracles but also had good synergy with terminus/bs. Could easily be v clique/tnn)
2-3 jace
0-1 Council's judgement
2 equipment
4 force of will
4 counterspells (spell pierce, snare, counterspell mix)
2-4 terminus
19-20 lands

SB:
4 meddling mage/containment priest
2 flusterstorm
extra terminus/verdict
some surgicals
a disenchant/judgement
v cliques.

[HeroBean]

Isn't Stax and Lands both "hard control" decks though? And both are at least tournament playable, lands is even tier 1 if I'm not mistaken.

[TheArchitect]

I have been playing miracles since shortly after terminus was printed, not just because the deck was good, but because I enjoyed control decks. This ban was far more than justified. It is stupid to cry about it, yes we all loved miracles because it is both the control style we enjoy AND the best deck, but that is asking for far too much. No one else in any format, but us miracles players, has been able to play the same deck while it was the best deck for as long as we miracles have. We have been very spoiled.

There was plenty of control decks before miracles (landstill, stax, 43 lands, UW stoneblade before it got midrangy) and there will be control decks after the top ban. Parcher is right, miracles would still be a playable with scroll rack if you really just cannot fathom playing another deck. It is ok to play a deck that's not THE BEST deck. If you need to play a teir 1 deck to enjoy legacy, then you really cannot let yourself get attached to any one deck.


This is a welcome changed for me. Miracles was so good, I could not overcome my inner spike and play another archtype when I could improve my win rate by just playing miracles for the 1000th time. I for one will probably go back to playing an Esper Mentor brew like I did during the dig through time days, UWx Blade Control or UBr Tezzeret.

[TheBoozeCube]

If you're looking for a non-midrange control deck, may I recommend a C/g build of 12 Post? You get to play with tons of removal, board wipes, great card selection and card advantage, and even a bit of countermagic. And there's nothing quite like taking infinite turns with Emrakul + Karakas…


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[ESG]

... I do care about them banning the last control deck outright.

This is extremely shortsighted, and the carping about hard control vs. non-hard control is ridiculous. Monastery Mentor + double Top enabled Turn 5 beatdowns many times. That's a faster clock than Shardless BUG. Yes, if you wanted to, you could remove all but one or two win conditions from Miracles, but the most dominant build of Miracles was Mentor Miracles. There's an entire format of cards to play. If you want to build a "hard control" deck, you certainly can. As Parcher pointed out, you still have a deck full of other great cards to start with, and there are hundreds of other combinations to explore.

[Crimhead]

Isn't Stax and Lands both "hard control" decks though? And both are at least tournament playable, lands is even tier 1 if I'm not mistaken.

RGCL is combo/control. Too many quick combo wins for me to consider it hard control. A hard control deck is defense first and has a hard time doing anything else in a timely manner.

RUG Lands (the version I usually play) I would consider hard control. I get fast combo wins, but they are by far the exception.

It's good we have a tier one prison deck (if you believe RUG Lands is tier one). But it's nice to have a more reactive (hard) control deck too. I can't see Landstill coming back.