Miracle Control

[gh0st_b1rd]

I've been tempted to try 19 land predict build, but felt it would be too inconsistent with Jace. How did you find ETA without access to consistent opponent EOT triggering?

Brainstorms and Snapcaster targeting Brainstorm. For me is has been enough to trigger EtA.

[Goofball]

Why is Miracles still a DTB with Sensei's Top banned?

I believe it has to something to do with monthly review of how decks are performing, and said period hasn't rolled over yet.

[twndomn]

Brainstorms and Snapcaster targeting Brainstorm. For me is has been enough to trigger EtA.

In few instances when your opponent's actually on fair deck, usually he's on something that would run DRS, like Grixis YP. If that's the case it's very difficult to rely on Snapcaster, since you have to time it well for every flashback cards and sometimes brainstorm is just not an option.

Looking at the meta, EtA is almost a dead card. Sure it's good against lands, but right now the meta is full of combos, and the tempo delver decks that try to fight combos. In both cases, Entreat is just horrible. I agree with jdmdave, EtA timing is just not worth the setup.

[Poron]

Jeskai control, anyway, will be a thing, imho.

Kozilek's Return or Volcanic Fallout resolve 80% of the threats around and we have access to Judgement Snapcaster and StP for everything else

No to mention Flusterstorm, Pyroblast and Wear/Tear. Being white so rare we are also one of the few that can play Containment Priest

3 Mentors and Clique+Karakas will finish him. We can move on

The only problem is the combo of Fatal Push + Decay + Command + Bolt around. May be Flash-Avacyn is worth its spot

[gh0st_b1rd]

In few instances when your opponent's actually on fair deck, usually he's on something that would run DRS, like Grixis YP. If that's the case it's very difficult to rely on Snapcaster, since you have to time it well for every flashback cards and sometimes brainstorm is just not an option.

I would say it depends on the board state with the DRS in play. If its early game I still have enough other gas in my hand to eventually find an answer. If its late I'm assuming its a topdeck war and I'm more than likely going to hardcast my EtA instead of Snap into BS as a way to set up my EtA. While sculpting your hand you could sculpt around having two Brainstorms in hand to set up your EtA. It isnt very hard to do when you run a full set of Portents and Predicts as well a deck with mostly generic cards. I generally find most of my topdecks satisfactory but the lack of Top has made ratios healthily awkward.

Looking at the meta, EtA is almost a dead card. Sure it's good against lands, but right now the meta is full of combos, and the tempo delver decks that try to fight combos. In both cases, Entreat is just horrible. I agree with jdmdave, EtA timing is just not worth the setup.

I would argue that if you wanted a win condition vs Delver it wouldnt really matter and that having a Moorland Haunt or Millstone as your win condition would be about as close to that of EtA. I left the EtA in because that was how I felt about my match ups vs fair decks, but had alsp felt that EtA was at least a decent insurance vs these fair decks in case of emergencies where JTMS wasnt enough for me to turn the corner. You're right that EtA has been very mediocre vs combo decks but I tend to put the onus on my Snapcasters in this case.

[jdmdave]

Went 4-1 in the league with the 4 cb no vclique list. I think we have something here guys.

What are your MTGO testing names?

[Nestalim]

We need to start sharing decklist.

Portending the Miracle

1 Arid Mesa
2 Plains
2 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Counterbalance
2 Predict
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Council's Judgment
2 Entreat the Angels
4 Ponder
4 Portent
4 Terminus
SB: 1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
SB: 2 Wear / Tear
SB: 1 From the Ashes
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Kozilek's Return

I am currently on this. Went 4-0 like as said against Shardless bug, Grixis Delver, Goblins and Rug delver.

I went pretty lucky against goblins as he had a shitty hand game one and didn't mull in vial on game 2. For the others, the deck simply runs smoothly.

Portent into Terminus is extremly regular. I simply played more than 10 games against RUG delver and lost only 2 times. I even managed to deal with goose four times in a single game.

I played yesterday versus Esper Stoneblade and Grixis Delver. Stoneblade feels the same way, the deck can't reach Jace. I managed to deal with Nahiri, Litomancer's ultimate thanks to Entreat the Angels.

I do believe that the deck is weaker, but now it is on the same level at the rest of the format. It is way weaker against Combo and the sideboard should be nearly entirely dedicated to it, but we still prey on creature deck.

There is a to say, to test, about the number and the win condition, but we shouldn't stop playing it. Jace, Bs, Snap and Stp are still powerhouse and be able to setup Terminus is smooth.

[Minniehajj]

We need to start sharing decklist.

Portending the Miracle

1 Arid Mesa
2 Plains
2 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Counterbalance
2 Predict
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Council's Judgment
2 Entreat the Angels
4 Ponder
4 Portent
4 Terminus
SB: 1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
SB: 2 Wear / Tear
SB: 1 From the Ashes
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Kozilek's Return

I am currently on this. Went 4-0 like as said against Shardless bug, Grixis Delver, Goblins and Rug delver.

I went pretty lucky against goblins as he had a shitty hand game one and didn't mull in vial on game 2. For the others, the deck simply runs smoothly.

Portent into Terminus is extremly regular. I simply played more than 10 games against RUG delver and lost only 2 times. I even managed to deal with goose four times in a single game.

I played yesterday versus Esper Stoneblade and Grixis Delver. Stoneblade feels the same way, the deck can't reach Jace. I managed to deal with Nahiri, Litomancer's ultimate thanks to Entreat the Angels.

I do believe that the deck is weaker, but now it is on the same level at the rest of the format. It is way weaker against Combo and the sideboard should be nearly entirely dedicated to it, but we still prey on creature deck.

There is a to say, to test, about the number and the win condition, but we shouldn't stop playing it. Jace, Bs, Snap and Stp are still powerhouse and be able to setup Terminus is smooth.

I played a similar variant for a little while last night:
// 60 Maindeck
// 1 Artifact
1 Engineered Explosives

// 4 Creature
4 Snapcaster Mage

// 2 Enchantment
2 Counterbalance

// 17 Instant
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Predict
4 Swords to Plowshares

// 20 Land
1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
2 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island

// 3 Planeswalker
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

// 13 Sorcery
1 Council's Judgment
4 Ponder
3 Terminus
3 Portent
2 Entreat the Angels


// 15 Sideboard
// 1 Artifact
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives

// 3 Creature
SB: 3 Monastery Mentor

// 10 Instant
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Wear // Tear
SB: 3 Flusterstorm

// 1 Land
SB: 1 Mountain

Based on the version that Thomas and Johannes played on Eternal Weekend. I definitely feel as if there is something there, but it just isn't nearly as consistent. I think if you play Terminus and have the Snap/BS/JTMS engine, 4 terminus is likely necessary, even as clunky as it might be.

[gh0st_b1rd]

Here's mine:

4 scalding tarn
4 flooded strand
1 arid mesa
3 tundra
2 volcanic island
2 plains
4 island

4 snapcaster mage

2 jace, the mind-sculptor
1 entreat the angels
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 portent
4 predict
1 spell snare
1 spell pierce
2 counterspell
4 force of will
1 council's judgment
1 engineered explosives
3 terminus

Sideboard

3 flusterstorm
2 red elemental blast
1 pyroblast
2 surgical extraction
1 pyroclasm
1 kozilek's return
1 disenchant
1 from the ashes
2 vendilion clique
1 mountain

I am not sure about how I feel about the 4th Terminus. Right now the ratios feel perfect and in the match ups where I want more sweepers I feel as though bringing in Pyroclasm effects is adaquate.

Right now Vendilion Clique is what I have at the moment as an attempt to speed up post board games if I might be behind on the clock.

Has anybody here tested Gideon of the Trials yet? That is a card that might end up finding its way into the maindeck for me.

[RankaLee]

Has anyone thought of going back to RIP Helm Combo with energy field with most of the control package ?

[jdmdave]

This is my decklist

* 10 fetch
* 3 Tundra
* 2 Volc
* 2 plains
* 3 Island
* 4 Bstorm
* 4 Portent
* 4 Ponder
* 3 Cbalance
* 1 Vclique
* 4 Snap
* 3 Jace
* 2 Counterspell
* 2 Spell Pierce
* 4 Fow
* 4 STP
* 4 Terminus
* 1 Judgment

Sideboard

* 3 Pyroblast
* 1 Containment Priest
* 2 Surgical
* 2 Ethersworn
* 2 Disenchant
* 2 Blood Moon
* 1 Vclique
* 1 Flusterstorm (budget issues)
* 1 K-return

[gh0st_b1rd]

So I'm going to try a couple maindeck Burning Wishes. From the main I cut

-1 Council's Judgment
-1 Snapcaster Mage
-1 Entreat the Angels

+1 Mountain
+2 Burning Wish

And my SB is now

1 From the Ashes
1 Council's Judgment
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Pyroblast
3 Flusterstorm

[JackaBo]

I'm considering jumping on the miracle train. I've been intrigued by the deck before being one of the hardest deck to master. Now it's even more intriguing as it's lost some of it's power. My base line is 4 counterspell, 4 portent, 4 SCM, 4 predict, 2 ETA, 2 Jace under the assumption that counterbalance is not good enough anymore. The list feels a bit too cantrip heavy. Do you think it's ok to cut a porten and maybe a predict for two more action spells? I'm thinking councils judgement for all the bullshit out there and a third jace or maindeck blood moon.
I'd like some feedback from you who have been testing ETA builds.

[Julian23]

This thread has been moved to the New and Developmental Decks forum, following the DtB section update that Dice_Box will perform later today. We internally discussed what to do with the Miracles thread but decided against archiving it since you guys seem to still be very actively working on the deck, and we don't want to stand in the way of that. In general, I would still be happy if eventually one of you created a new thread for this new Miracles deck, as the current opening post is now even more out of date than it already was before the ban of Sensei's Diving Top.

I'm pinning this thread to the top of the New and Developmental Decks forum for a couple of days.

[twndomn]

I'm considering jumping on the miracle train. I've been intrigued by the deck before being one of the hardest deck to master. Now it's even more intriguing as it's lost some of it's power. My base line is 4 counterspell, 4 portent, 4 SCM, 4 predict, 2 ETA, 2 Jace under the assumption that counterbalance is not good enough anymore. The list feels a bit too cantrip heavy. Do you think it's ok to cut a porten and maybe a predict for two more action spells? I'm thinking councils judgement for all the bullshit out there and a third jace or maindeck blood moon.
I'd like some feedback from you who have been testing ETA builds.

First of all, you've missed the train. We're back at ground zero, and it doesn't appear the deck would be in DTB anytime soon, if ever.

Second, Miracles wasn't the hardest, it just shouldn't be the first Legacy deck if the player was new to the format.

As to card choices, I don't see the value in Predict, not before and certainly not now. You can only make a worthy Predict either after you have resolved a cantrip, or you have flipped for CB. For the first case, it's likely a sorcery speed Ponder/Portent, so you are sinking 3 Mana for CA. I would advise against it, especially when your opponent is likely to be a combo deck. For second case, it's now even harder to put back the Terminus/EtA you drew off Predict (without knowing) but could not trigger. If you run 4 BS and 4 Portent, that's 8 already. I would consider Ponder before I get to Predict.

As to the outlook of this deck, remember Lossett said that the most powerful card in the deck is Terminus. I personally believe it's both Terminus and SDT. Hence, that's enough to keep us developing. If possible, I would like to avoid the Miracles Blade approach, but that should be on the table.

[JackaBo]

First of all, you've missed the train. We're back at ground zero, and it doesn't appear the deck would be in DTB anytime soon, if ever.

Second, Miracles wasn't the hardest, it just shouldn't be the first Legacy deck if the player was new to the format.

As to card choices, I don't see the value in Predict, not before and certainly not now. You can only make a worthy Predict either after you have resolved a cantrip, or you have flipped for CB. For the first case, it's likely a sorcery speed Ponder/Portent, so you are sinking 3 Mana for CA. I would advise against it, especially when your opponent is likely to be a combo deck. For second case, it's now even harder to put back the Terminus/EtA you drew off Predict (without knowing) but could not trigger. If you run 4 BS and 4 Portent, that's 8 already. I would consider Ponder before I get to Predict.

As to the outlook of this deck, remember Lossett said that the most powerful card in the deck is Terminus. I personally believe it's both Terminus and SDT. Hence, that's enough to keep us developing. If possible, I would like to avoid the Miracles Blade approach, but that should be on the table.

I meant the development train obviously!
I mean to run 4 ponder, just thought that brainstorm, ponder, swords and terminus was a given 4-off. But of course, since deck is in flux i can see why that wasn't obvious. I'm totally in on not running stoneforge mystic.

[Richard Arschmann]

Tried testing various lists all weekend.

JDMdave's list feels like it's a lot harder to play than Predict Miracles was. You have to anticipate how a situation will unfold in advance and have the right card on top of your library to Counterbalance it or use one of your precious Brainstorms, whereas with Top you could just rearrange to 0, 1, or 2 at will. I feel that Entreat is completely dead and Terminus requires setup and is highly vulnerable to people not overextending. This is also a very slow deck: even slower than previous iterations of Miracles.

I am having a lot more success in UWR control by implementing a second card advantage engine: either Punishing Fire or Engineered Explosives/Academy Ruins. MTGO player ItIsUnfair has been using Punishing Fire to great success in UR/x Thing in the Ice decks, but I do not feel Thing is a very good card, so I put it in here. I'll post a list if it continues to do well in testing.

[Minniehajj]

Tossing this together because some stuff has impressed me:

// 60 Maindeck
// 1 Artifact
1 Engineered Explosives

// 4 Creature
4 Snapcaster Mage

// 15 Instant
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Counterspell

// 22 Land
2 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Mountain
2 Plains
4 Island

// 6 Planeswalker
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Gideon of the Trials

// 12 Sorcery
4 Ponder
3 Portent
4 Terminus
1 Council's Judgment


// 15 Sideboard
// 6 Creature
SB: 3 Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Keranos, God of Storms

// 8 Instant
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Wear // Tear

// 1 Sorcery
SB: 1 Pyroclasm

one of the cliques or the pyroclasm might want to become a staticaster
Options: Mentor/Clique/SFM+Bskull over the gideons

[phg22]

So I've been high on Gideon in legacy but I want to know what made you go for 4 StP, 4 Terminus, AND 3 Gideon

[jdmdave]

So if I read this correctly, our general plan is to gain vast virtual CA by Terminusing their board then setting up neo platinum angel to blank everything?

As for my list being hard to play, I 100% agree - the deck is extremely reliant upon metaknowledge.