I've added Dragon Stompy.
I'll be trying to figure out an Aluren list that I like. I'm worried that other combo decks at a similar price are already just head and shoulders better.
I'm wondering how many cards from the upcoming set might actually find their way into these decks.
peace,
4eak
Excellent thread 4eak. If anybody wants to play storm combo without duals, here's the budget TES list I used to play:
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Duress
4 Silence
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Forbidden Orchard
2 Darkslick Shores/Watery Grave
Sideboard
1 Deathmark
1 Thoughtseize
1 Grapeshot
1 Shattering Spree
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Diminishing Returns
4 Xantid Swarm/Pyroblast
2 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away/Krosan Grip
LEDs are expensive but cutting 3 duals and 4 fetches shaves a large chunk off the cost of the deck without sacrificing too much performance. Just be careful of giving your opponent a bunch of spirit tokens too fast with Forbidden Orchard. The Thoughtseize in the board can be replaced with another 1-mana discard spell, but that would be rather suboptimal. Pyroblast vs. Xantid Swarm depends on whether your meta has more Counterbalance or Tempo/Merfolk decks.
I like the list a lot. My budget TES w/LED list looks nearly identical. I have worries about Brainstorm here -- without shuffle effects other than IT, it might be better to just go Preordain. My guess is that Brainstorm is still worth using, I'm just not sure about it.
I've actually been trying to cut the LEDs as well. And, damn, that isn't easy to do. Any suggestions on a non-LED budget list?
peace,
4eak
Hey 4eak,
I know you already have a CounterTop Thopter on the list but back before CounterTop Thopter took off, I was working on a mono blue CounterTop Combo for a buddy of mine. Outside of the actual CounterTop mechanic, the deck worked by having Future Sight and Helm of Awakening on the field (with an active SDTop). Then just keep drawing and replaying SDTop until you get Brain Freeze. It sounded janky but it was great.
I have also tried working on other things. They probably deserve more playtest but it worked out for me on MWS (back before my computer got fried). I would try building them on paper but I have this deckbuilding ADD thing so I cant keep working on the same deck. That and I am always broke.
Some of the things I've tried are a Legacy version of Dark Times (Mono-Black Control with Vampire Hexmage and Dark Depths combo), Budget Aluren, X-land Stompy Elves, CounterRebels (though that deck ran FoWs, I think Mental Misstep from NPH can be used in that spot. That deck lacked on blue cards to make FoWs effective anyways) to name a few.
I think a mono-white Karakas-less Death and Taxes deck would work too (essentially a Weenie deck). I think Squadron Hawks can be used on that deck to gain card advantage instead of trying to lock the game with Mangara. (I still think Squadron Hawks + Scroll Racks have the potential to be the next Buehler Weenie - Essentially Tax Rack Weenie). I was gonna work on that but once again, my deckbuilding ADD kicked in. Now I want to build a Forgemaster MUD deck.
Is Pox.dec still viable? That deck was also budget. Ooze Reanimator (sans FoW and Duals) can also be ran on a tight budget. I think that deck is faster than conventional Reanimator decks anyways.
Brainstorm is still good enough here because this deck is ridiculously explosive and you just want to see as many cards as possible immediately prior to going off. It loses the power to shuffle away trash (unless you have Ponder), but a lot of the time you're just going to Brainstorm, put trash on top, and combo off right there.
I've thought about cutting LED but the alternatives are so awful that I don't think it's really possible. This deck doesn't fill up its graveyard fast enough to consider Cabal Ritual, while pretty much every other card either doesn't work here (Culling the Weak) or is just really bad (all the other red rituals, Rain of Filth, Mox Diamond). Lotus Bloom is too slow, unfortunately. Maybe if it had suspend 2 instead of 3 it would be decent. The only storm deck I can think of without LED is QSI, and that deck is not budget as it runs Seas, Fetches, and Cruel Bargains.
Oh, also. Spiral Tide - I bet there's a decent budget list without Candelabra. Not playing Force of Will would really hurt, but it's probably doable.
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Nice thread. I think it's good to list what cards would be in the "optimal" builds to give a clear upgrade path.
In CounterTop Thopters, I just checked Ebay and Elspeth and Enlightened Tutors are currently more or less equal in price (~$12). Elspeth has gone way down since rotating out of Standard and being reprinted in Duel Decks : Elspeth vs Tezz, and E Tutor can only go up. She's the nuts against aggro and gives the deck an alternate win condition.
Also, a note for any budget buyers building towards better manabases: get real fetches first, then just one dual, then the rest. Mostly this applies to two color decks. Especially if you already have a Ravnica shockland in the proper colors. Fetches will give better manabase stability than an equivalent number of duals, and if you have just one Ravnica shock or ABU dual in the deck you'll still be able to get it out fairly often.
I've been messing around with the MBAC list. I cut the Bogs for 2 swamps, an Edict and a Duress/Inquisition. I have to say, it curves out beautifully. It takes it out of the budget realm, but I may put that guy from NP in here - the BBBB one.
Thanks for making this thread 4eak! Often, people don't have ideas of where to start building legacy decks, what the most cost effective ways are to go about building decks--I have a friend who decided to build a legacy deck and bought a moat as his first card--still hasn't built a deck yet. I also appreciate how much you've put yourself in for--everyone and his brother has tried to build a legacy deck they didn't have the cards for, and will have budget recommendations. I appreciate sorting out and testing through all of these recommendations.
Now, onto my own budget ideas (you didn't think I was talking about somebody else, did you? )
When you tested this, did you try spoils of the vault? Now, it seems to me that Spoils is every bit of consistency your deck could want--it's a kill spell, it's mana, it's protection, all for the low low cost of adding a bayou (or an overgrown tomb).
Also, congratulations on your promotion!
P.S. Have you seen TroopaTroop's Goblin Sligh? It looks like the perfect deck for this thread, if you want to talk to him about it. Gogo Gadget Goblin Grenade!
Rishadan Port is like scuba gear.
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No Trinisphere in Dragon Stompy?
Also, you can use Powder Keg instead of Ratchet Bomb there (not much price difference, but still).
No Green aggro budget decks? If I recall correctly, there's a "Poor man's Zoo" thread in N&D which focused on making the 3-c manabase smoother. And you can always use the CiP:T lands that don't CiP:T if you have 2 or less lands, these are pretty viable in aggro decks.
If you fail to explain the reason behind your choice, technically, it's the wrong choice.
Zerk Thread -- Really, fun deck! ^^
As mentioned earlier, Pox.dec is probably a good idea to put up. I have no idea what an optimal list would be nowadays, but the only expensive card I can think of that's good there is Wasteland (Sinkhole is pretty terrible in this meta). The rest of the deck is pretty cheap, with the most expensive card probably being Tombstalker or maybe Thoughtseize (not even sure if that's run).
@ (nameless one)
I greatly appreciate the help and suggestions. I'm in the process of testing and trying to find lists I am willing to recommend for most of those decks, including several you mentioned. Admittedly, I think most of the deck types I'm trying, despite being as optimal as I might be able to make them, may up being not worth building in terms of competitiveness and money; decks of this sort won't be recommended.
@ Admiral_Arzar
I've been trying Spiral Tide decks out. There are several classes of blue-combo decks which pack permission and a combo. Finding the best of the cheap to build ones which are still effective without FoW is difficult.
To your second post, I'm trying to find a Pox deck I like. There are a lot of variations, and the few I like heavily rely upon some very expensive cards.
@ grahf
Honestly, I'm not exactly sure what the optimal upgrade paths are for these decks. I had hoped to leave that up to whoever had tested and bought budget versions to figure out for themselves. I am trying to point out the obvious big money cards which eventually belong. I probably haven't done enough at all to point out smaller card choices which are upgrades as well. Truly, it would take a sizable post to explain a single soup-to-nuts, budget to complete deck optimal upgrade path explanation.
I originally had Elspeth in the budget version. It started getting so expensive that I eventually cut them. I should have mentioned those.
@ bakofried
I started without the Bogs, and you are right, it curves out even better that way. It makes better turn 1 discard, turn 2 something decent plays with pure swamps. However, Bog has been pretty good against a ton of decks for me. But, you are right, Bogs are clearly a metagame choice -- I'll go back and mention that.
Phyrexian Cancellor looks pretty damn sexy. It requires a different deck though, I think. First off, Dark Ritual is auto-4 in such a deck. And, that is a different direction, in my view. That might sound silly, but I think the proper direction for MBAC is not playing Dark Ritual, instead going for parity and 2-for-1's. I think Cancellor is best in more explosive versions. I definitely will be trying to build for him. I don't expect the deck to look the same (although it could).
@ LostButSeeking
I've tried versions with Spoils and IT, I still think straight G/R is still better. Believe me, I want black to work. If you've got a black list you think is better, please let me try it out.
I spoke earlier in the thread about Troopa's Goblin Sligh deck.
@ Gui
Surprise! Honestly, I used to think it was an auto-include. That card has been just terrible for me too often. I will go back and mention it though. It has a real history, and in some metagames, that card is crazy good.No Trinisphere in Dragon Stompy?
I've not found a Green aggro deck that I like enough just yet. I'll see what I can do.
peace,
4eak
Last edited by 4eak; 04-25-2011 at 03:36 PM.
No, I'm definitely on board as far as Rit is concerned. I just couldn't think of any decks where I play that need the GY, but I can think of several that pack Wastes. I'm trying to introduce people in my area to strong, budget decks, and now I can just point them here.
4eak, this is G.
I've been thinking about Dredge sideboard. What do you think about this Elesh Norn over Flame-kin Zealot? Against Goblins, Merfolk, the mirror match, zoo, and almost everything else he demolishes your opponent's board. Even if he doesn't completely wipe it out, the aggro swing is so great to your advantage that it'd be nearly impossible for them to recover in the late game, which is when he's most likely to come out anyway.
I've never tried Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite before. It looks pretty interesting. It wouldn't go in place of FKZ though. FKZ is nice when you need to win on the spot against decks, which while that includes opposing aggro decks which might kill you next turn, it also includes combo decks in general. Elesh Norn is great against aggro decks, but not against combo. FKZ must stay even if only for opposing combo.
peace,
4eak
I have been testing a traditional U/G Madness list. It's been pretty efficient, for what it's worth - seems that flying 4/4 Wurms are still t3h b0nkerZ. Would you like the list?
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Sure, post it. Do you think it is better than Merfolk, and if so, why?
peace,
4eak
Ahem, I've done alot more Cocatrice testing with my Goblin Sligh. I think I've got it where I want it, Mental Misstep included. It costs about $160!
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Guide
3 Tattermunge Maniac
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Wardriver
4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
4 Goblin Grenade
2 Fireblast
4 Mental Misstep
20 Mountains
changes
-4 Mogg War Marshal
-2 Price of Progress
-1 Chain Lightning
+3 Tattermunge Maniac
+4 Mental Misstep
I cut Mogg War Marshal for Tattermunge Maniac when I realized that casting Mogg War Marshal was awful :D. I also realized that having a 1 drop creature on the play is one of the most important things. He's definitely the worst card in the deck, but a necessary evil. Mental Misstep is in there to be generally awesome. It's a great choice if you want to fry some fish! My 2c
So, I was digging around in the Berserk Stompy topic and found the following budget list:
3 Vine Dryad
2 Jungle Lion
4 Skarrgan Pit-skulk
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
4 Kavu Predator
2 Talara's Battalion
4 Rancor
4 Vines of Vastwood
4 Invigorate
3 Giant Growth
3 Manamorphose
2 Gleeful Sabotage
2 Land Grant
15 Forest
Figured it might be of interest.
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