I have no answer to this other than tutor up Engineered Explosives to remove whatever problem permanent is stopping plan A :). A couple Welders/Painters can sometimes be a clock against combo, but not against basically any creature deck.Originally Posted by mordraid
I'm not following, are you saying that we should be trying more white silver bullets in the builds that splash white, or that the Enlightened Tutor line is just a dead end? I'm not sure which is right at this point, would like to hear more.
I am heavily testing a new build currently and got some input:
- ET is mediocre, as it opens us up to a 2 for 1 trade, but the biggest problem is the 3rd color splash. It weakens our solid manabase and weakens Mox at worst. Speaking of Mox Opal is one of the strongest cards in the deck, it is one of the cards which makes the deck tick and got heavily boosted by the new legend rule. Never play less than 4!
- Intuition relies too much on Welder otherwise its really bad imo. Paying 3 to get a card, while pulling out the juice of the deck seems weak in cases without Welder. Welder should be played as a threat, which has to be answered fast otherwise we pull ahead, not as a must protect (for Intuition).
- Transmute is a love / hate card. I would play 2 at most as it opens up the line of adding 2 Grim and a single Batterskull as a decent alt-win / stall tactic. The problem is that there other powerful 2 mana spells, like Dig and Snapcaster Mage.
This deck can be great in the new meta, because if correctly build, it can both take the aggressive combo as well as the control role (at least post board). Miracles is easier to beat that a fast hand from Delver, which reflect this stance.
BBB
My guess would be:
-Enlightened Tutor, -Transmute Artifact, -Intuition
+4 Dig Through Time, +4Gitaxian Probe, moar fetches
The Probes and extra fetches will help fire off early DTTs. DTT may just be enough to find exactly what you're looking for. Targetting yourself with Grindstone also enables 2nd/3rd copies of DTT. The side effect though is enemy red blasts now hurt your plan.
What are your thoughts on running Lotus Petal/Mox Diamond? Since these fuel the yard faster and you stop relying on metalcraft/clunky mana base.
Yep, looking at the previous page, people seem to have been more in love with Treasure Cruise, I was expecting 3-4 DTT builds and found none.
Both Dig and Probe are strong in testing. I currently run 2 Dig and 0 Probes. One of the weaknesses of Dig is that it costs 2 mana (often overlooked). I also dont want to rely too heavily on them, as they tend to clock up my hand in multiples. It is cool to see the hand of my opponent, but with smart play it is not really needed imo. Also I want to have each little bit of life, which can often mean having another turn or not. Having Welder as an additional engine at 1 mana is also stronger, because it stretches thin the removal of my opponent (but it's not I rely on him like builds with Intuition). The super synergy card for Welder is SDT anyway, as it is good without him. You dont need to bother to check the top 3 with a Welder out, just draw cards of it and keep mana up for other stuff.
I currently run 4 Lotus Petal besides 4 Mox Opal and 17 Land. Petal may look weak, but it does an insane of work in my build.
- It enables metalcraft of Mox.
- Can negate taxing counters like Daze.
- Is a easy way to enable Welder.
- Powers up Dig.
- And finally powers up Thoughtcast! A card which I really like, because opponents tend to not counter them, but still have a bad feeling, as they see me draw more and more cards. I crushed control decks by simply chaining Thoughtcasts and replay them of Snapcaster Mage. It is funny to outcontrol Miracles with this approach. It is also the reason why I dont need to go all-in on the huge delve spells while still utilizing them. Between Welder+SDT, Dig and Thoughtcast this deck has an insane amount of draw, which is actually the most fun thing for me ;)
BBB
Most of the mana bases I've seen rely on around 18-20 lands, which makes Mox Diamond inconsistent. Lotus Petal, while helping both Metalcraft and a short burst of mana, also suffers from mana inconsistencies. I've personally liked running the mana base as such:
4-5 Sol Lands
6-8 Fetch lands
1-2 Basics
2-3 Dual lands
2-4 Artifact lands
3-4 Mox Opal
Where the varying numbers depend on which specifics of the deck you run (like Transmute Artifact, or Grim Monolith, etc)
West side
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While TA is card disadvantage (if it resolves!), it is necessary for this deck imo. Without Intuition there is no way to get the single graveyard hoser (Tormods Crypt in my list) in time. Also it gives us an out to Chalice or CB sometimes. It also makes sideboard silverbullets stronger. The question is if we should run it with Grim Monolith together and Batterskull / Wurmcoil from the board? The problem is that we have another 2 card combo of TA + Grim, compared to SFM, which just gets Skull out and leaves a body behind. Is it still a powerful enough play for g2,3? Next question would be to either run a 2/2 or a 3/3 TA/ Grim split? Currently I think that this play is too slow to matter and we should just play two TA without Grim. However if you add Pyroclasm to the equation, the game may become slow enough to make this an ok play. The package would also benefit from a higher Welder count (like 2-3). As one can just sac a artifact land and not pay for Skull / Wurm and weld it in. Keep in mind that it would gives us a way to ignore certain hate cards like Needle alltogether and just beat with lifegainers. This would also shrug off Surgical Extraction on either Painter or Stone.
Edit: Death I actually test a 4 Dig build now. It is an insane card and justifies to build around it. My current build can be insanely explosive, drawing of Thoughtcast in the first turn, but going into topdeck soon after. Additionaly the nature of a 2 card combo makes the requirement of an increased amount of dig necessary, as one tend to draw into the wrong pieces.
Last edited by deadlock; 01-11-2015 at 06:06 PM.
BBB
Hello,
I used to play this deck in the grixis colour combination, with Counterbalance. Counterbalance was quite heavy and I'm happy to not see it there. Nonetheless, CB was my main plan vs a Stp deck, while Welder covered the decay ones.
Then, since you don't play CB, what is your gameplan vs Stp decks ? I often see Spellskite and Wurmcoil in sideboards. Does this plan involve an "overwhelming" of targets ? Or simply reb it ?
Hey guys,
It has been a pretty long while since I have played any legacy, but turns out there is a GP in my neck of the woods next year, and I have decided to dust off the cobwebs and see if Painter still has any play. Here is the list I am looking at it is pretty similar to some of my old lists:
Winning the Game and B plan:
4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone
4 Goblin Welder
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Batterskull
Draw and tutor:
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Transmute Artifact
3 Intuition
Protection:
4 Force of Will
3 Pyroblast
Mana:
2 Mox Opal
3 Grim Monolith
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors
2 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
3 Island
1 Mountain
3 Seat of the Synod
1 Great Furnace
SB: 3 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Blood Moon
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Batterskull
SB: 1 Venser, Shaper Savant
SB: 1 Keranos, God of Storms
SB: 2 Spellskite
A couple of the new choices, and things I am unsure about. First, I don't know if the tutor/draw/etc package is correct it is possible that 3-3 4-2 4-4 mix on TA and intuition is correct, but I am not sure without testing. Secondly, Batterskull is a concession to miracles. I feel like we have the mana to make that a really reasonable threat and it, unlike wumcoil survives terminus sort of. It also has the added bonus of being able to TA off of a Monolith by itself. It is probably slightly worse against tempo, but I think it is probably worth it. As for the SB the old hits are there for the most part Bridge, and Blood Moon, I have however reverted to bringing in REBs over the flusters of the past this is a concession to omnitell being a tough and very present MU. My plan at this moment is to mostly convert to a UR control deck vs Omnitell for games 2 and 3 with maybe 1 copy each of painter grindstone and crypt left in the deck. Keranos and the 2nd batterskull are both for Miracles.
If anyone is still playing the deck, or is interested in trying again (Ish? Koby? tkDodo) I am going to start working on this deck a lot again, so I would be happy to have the theory crafting conversations, and we did some good work in the past.
Spellskite, especially with welder is very good against STP because you can switch targets and then weld the spellskite out so the swords fizzles. In addition, yes, you can just have more necessary targets than they have swords. This is also one of the reasons I am testing out Batterskull in one of the wurmcoil slots because swords is NOT a good answer to it. We also in the past have brought in multiple flusterstorms, right now I am instead bringing in more REBs but that still might be worse than flusterstorm for the reason you are mentioning.
The biggest thing is that we can reload on components very easily. Also, having welder available for tricks means that they usually have to kill the welder before they kill the painter, which sometimes just gives us enough time to win.
@turingTested on twitter
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これは水である。
Hi merfolkotpt, nice to see you again.
If you haven't played legacy in the few months the first thing you should know is that right now the best decks are the ones which can efficiently use Dig through Time: just look at the tier decks and you'll see that almost everyone plays 2-4 copies of the aformentioned card.
The card is so powerful but legacy took sometimes to discover it because everyone was in the Treasure Cruise boat (pun intended ^_^ ), so I'm taking my time explaining you because you might not grasp it immediately.
While TC fueled tempo-aggro decks, DTT is more for controllish or combo decks (though not necessarily); I think you should try to fit in painter stone even of it means to seriously alter your maindeck (see lacks of ponder)!
Cheers.
Ignorance is strength
So I began testing my list last night. I appreciate the advice, and it is possible that Dig is better than intuition or transmute in this deck, but it would require a massive retooling (probably to mono blue, and at that point why not just play omnitell?), but for now I am going to start with an old list and work forward to where the format is right now.
I played against Junk (or Dark Maverick maybe?) anyhow, it was not a great matchup, but historically was only good if you won within the first three turns. I was blown out in game 3 by 3 wastelands and a Nethervoid. I still would have won that game (the turn before he drew nethervoid) I think, but his last card in that hand was swords to murder my wurmcoil. So if not for those two draws in a row (or saved swords) i think i was perfectly in the game, despite a resolved choke. I am alright with that MU being bad, as looking at mtgtop8 it doesn't appear to be all that common.
Onto the meat, I played against 4c delver or grixis splashing green delver 12 times, and as it turns out wurmcoil is still really really good. He beat me once on the back of multiple wastelands and dazes (the way delver wants every game to play out) but for the most part I felt like I could mostly ignore or play around his soft counters. As usual, goblin welder in some games was absolutely absurd, and in other games did exactly what it was supposed to do by drawing a counter/removal spell and allowing the other cards in the deck to just win.
I think this shell is still very powerful, and the reason has to do with the inherent flexibility in plan that you are going for. All the tutors get different things, and work different depending on the cards in play, which, in turn, allows you to adjust your plan on the fly. I was also surprised, despite the fact that my opponent had multiple deathrite shamans in play, how often he had to tap out to execute his game plan. It seems like this might be due to my opponent not being familiar with the match up, but it worked out quite well for me, because as I said, playing around daze with sol lands, and grim monolith is not bad at all.
A couple things I noticed, ensnaring bridge seems like an effective card still, but I think you need to have access to LED to drop down to 0 cards quickly. I was siding out forces a lot, but I dont' know if that actually makes the most sense, for this deck, since we are using them to protect our combo a lot, rather than counter our opponents bombs. It is possible that we could side in 4 skites to make up for them against non-broken decks with lots of removal, as skite with welder is better (and more card efficient) than force, though it can be mana intensive. Further testing is warranted.
The biggest thing that struck me was that it didn't feel like my delver opponent outclassed me, by any means. If that version of delver (or similar) is on the upswing and Jeskai is not popular anymore, I am perfectly content to utilize wurmcoils.
@turingTested on twitter
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これは水である。
Would something like a single Svyelunite Temple round out and compliment early hands that don't have UU to power out the combo with Transmute Artifact?
Svyelunite Temple is sort of interesting, but in general a "fast" transmute is a relative term, and it involves getting a Grim monolith into play, but unless you are fetching up batterskull, it still requires access to 6 mana total. So like the ideal circumstance is something like turn 1 tomb > monolith, turn 2 seat + mox opal > transmute. Since temple comes into play tapped it isn't actually necessarily that much faster.
I think, with the deck manipulation available the key to playing the deck well is being able to understand what plan you are on at any given moment and play accordingly. This is relevant because if I am going for transmute I usually just plan for how I am going to assemble my mana, and mox opal is the great fixer in that regard. In addition, make sure you are fetching for basics (mostly basic island) 85% of the time, and you should be ok.
@turingTested on twitter
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これは水である。
Been playing a lot of UBr tezz lately.
But painter remains one of my favorite cards and archetypes. And the decks share a lot in common.
When looking to update UR painter here I would highly consider Dack Fayden. I've been playing 3 of in tezz and love him.
He's even better in this she'll. you can utilize the graveyard more, and his ultimate is great with red blasts as a backup plan.
I'm tinkering with a list now.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Ish,
Good to see you again. Yeah my last list before my hiatus was a 3 dack list, but I just found that it moved me toward a more slow and controlling build, which isn't necessarily wrong, but definitely looks a lot more like grixis control than these painter decks, and I think that would be a good starting place, specifically including some number of Baleful Strix, and maybe trading out some of the combo pieces for control elements. That probably also contains some number of digs, over our traditional tutors (probably transmute is the first cut) and maybe includes the addition of counterbalance again somewhere in the 75.
This seems interesting to me, and might be a more correct way to build the deck at present, but I am going to stick with a more traditional build at least for my initial testing. We can compare notes after playing a bit more. I feel like the inherent synergies in this build are sort of hard to compete with, but I may be wrong and a shift to a slower more controlling list is the correct move.
@turingTested on twitter
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これは水である。
There has been a grixis version of the deck before.
Here's a list that came in second at a premier iq:
Creatures (12)
3 Baleful Strix
2 Painter's Servant
3 Goblin Welder
2 Imperial Recruiter
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Trinket Mage
Planeswalkers (2)
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Lands (22)
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
1 Academy Ruins
Spells (25)
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Grindstone
1 Nihil Spellbomb
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
1 Dig Through Time
3 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Transmute Artifact
Sideboard
1 Meekstone
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Magus of the Moon
2 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Spell Pierce
1 Firebolt
3 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
its much less explosive and way more controlling
I went 3-0, ID in final round at my weekly legacy event with this deck
Round 1: Death and Taxes
Game 1: I land an early top and painter's servant against a turn 2 Thalia into turn 3 Leonin Arbiter. I Misdirect a Swords to Plowshares to the Leonin Arbiter and Transmute my top into a Grindstone for the win.
Game 2: Multiple Wastelands plus Mangara/Karakas combo lock me out of the game.
Game 3: I start with the combo in hand and lead with Ancient Tomb into Spellskite, which promptly is hit by Swords to Plowshares. I follow it up with another Spellskite, Painter's Servant, and Grindstone against a Mother of Runes, Phyrexian Revoker (naming Grindstone), and Stoneforge Mystic tutoring up a Umezawa's Jitte. I Pyroblast the Revoker end of turn and win.
1-0 (2-1)
Round 2: Omnitell
Game 1: I Pyroblast, Red Elemental Blast, and Flusterstorm Brainstorms and Ponders and my opponent never makes his second land drop. I don't know what deck he's playing other than that it has Volcanic Islands.
Game 2: I quickly assemble the combo with Sensei's Divining Top while my opponent drew many lands. I realize only after he concedes that he's playing Omnitell and I tell him not to scoop next time since he has Emrakul in the deck.
2-0 (4-1)
Round 3: Infect
Game 1: I mulligan to 5 and lose a battle where my attempt to Misdirection a lethal Invigorate is hit by Force of Will, and my Pyroblast on the Force of Will is hit by Daze.
Game 2: I land a fast combo with Misdirections and pyroblasts.
Game 3: I play a turn 1 Spellskite off of Ancient Tomb, which is hit by a Krosan Grip powered by his Noble Hierarch. I play a Painter's Servant with Goblin Welder as backup. I am hit for 2 poison by an exalted Glistener Elf. I attempt to pyroblast an attacking Glistener Elf, responded to with a kicked Vines of Vastwood on the Elf. I use my Goblin Welder to turn the Painter's Servant into a Spellskite and redirect the Vines to itself. The pyroblast fizzles, but the buffed Spellskite eats the Glistener Elf. I land a Blood Moon and he casts double Force of Will onto the pyroblast on his remaining Noble Hierarch (I attempted to misdirect the first one), leaving us both with no cards in hand. I topdeck a Grindstone soon to win the game
3-0 (6-2)
Round 4: ID
Deck
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Ponder
1 Transmute Artifact
2 Intuition
2 Flusterstorm
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Pyroblast
2 Misdirection
4 Goblin Welder
2 Dack Fayden
1 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Grindstone
4 Painter's Servant
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Grim Monolith
3 Mox Opal
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Academy Ruins
4 Seat of the Synod
2 Ancient Tomb
Sideboard
3 Blood Moon
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Batterskull
2 Surgical Extraction
4 Counterbalance
2 Spellskite
1 Pithing Needle
Notes:
-Spellskite was great against both Death and Taxes and Infect, I might move up to 3 copies
-I will probably remove Counterbalance from the board, probably include some Ancient Grudges
-I never sided in the Batterskull or Wurmcoil Engine
-I did not miss Force of Will at all; Misdirection was as good or better each time I cast it
-Flusterstorm was great
-Did not use Lion's Eye Diamond or Grim Monolith at all
-I am not sure how good Ensnaring Bridge is; it doesn't stop Omnitell much since they can Cunning Wish for an answer, and it's difficult to empty our hand quickly since we play counterspells
Possible Changes
-4 Counterbalance
-1 Ensnaring Bridge
+1 Spellskite
+1 Relic of Progenitus
+2 Ancient Grudge
+1 Chill? Our Burn matchup is pretty bad...
Hello,
thank you for your answer merfolkotpt.
Lately I have been interested in making UR Painter a Dig Through time Control Deck with a painter kill finish. I thought about the interaction Thought scour + Dig + Welder. But it is actually anti synergistic in the sense that Welder requires artifacts to be in play, and therefore weakens the power of Dig. Welder is strong with top and strix but these two are not the best combined with dig, etc.. I thought that Kolaghan's command is a much better card when you also play Dig. Anyway, I'd like to have your opinion on this (approximative) list :
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins (not sure if this should be a 9th fetch or not) // 1 Bloodstained Mire
1 [UNH] Mountain
2 [UNH] Island
2 [R] Underground Sea
4 [KTK] Polluted Delta
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
4 [R] Volcanic Island
2 [ISD] Snapcaster Mage
4 [SHM] Painter's Servant
1 [C13] Nihil Spellbomb (not sure if main deck -definitely in with ruins ; against omnishow, maybe we can go beatdown (2 cspell 4 blast to get there, and 4 bolts 2 kolaghan to burn)) // 1 Gurmag Angler
2 [TE] Grindstone
1 [CNS] Misdirection
2 [7E] Counterspell
2 [DTK] Kolaghan's Command
2 [5E] Pyroblast
2 [4E] Red Elemental Blast
4 [CNS] Brainstorm
4 [KTK] Dig Through Time
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [M11] Lightning Bolt
4 [DKA] Thought Scour
4 [M12] Ponder
The sideboard is not finished at all but I want an alternative win condition in all MUs (because of Surgical). I'm also debating whether I want pyroclasm or more creatures (dread/sulfur ; Magus/Moon, Dark confidant) : Pyroclasm makes the Grixis Delver MU quite easy but can be anti synergistic with Sulfur (D1T), Clique if chosen as alternative condition where pyroclasm is useful and does not cover Goose, goyf.
SB: 1 [SOM] Koth of the Hammer // 0 - we can't protect him (no bridge, etc)
SB: 2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 [PLC] Sulfur Elemental
SB: 2 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 3 [M11] Pyroclasm
SB: 3 [9E] Blood Moon // 2 Blood moon
SB: 1 [C13] Nihil Spellbomb //2 Nihil spellbomb or Surgicals -useful vs Miracle I guess.
SB: 1 [5E] Pyroblast
The deck is more controll-ish with a painter finish. It could also need an alternative Main deck win Condition other than snap beatdowns (I thought about main decking 1 clique or even 1 Koth). I like it because it should have quite good MUs vs greedy manabase (that are 4c Delver/Lands/Loam) while keeping an ok MU vs Omnishow. Also reb-ing a goyf, an enchantment, or a land is something nice in a grixis control shell.
Last edited by Jizz; 09-26-2015 at 04:23 PM.
Sad, just as we get some interest in a new build, Dig through time goes bye bye. In other news, old school UR painter, (see my list above) is still playing out fine. I like it.
It might be worthwhile to think about that now, especially since one of the bad matchups, just got (presumably) a lot less popular and or morphed back into Sneak and Show which is way easier to beat than Omnitell.
I am excited about testing against whatever tweaks happen to miracles for a full assessment. In general, I think the B&R annoucnement was positive for UR painter.
@turingTested on twitter
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これは水である。
It's about time : a grixis Tezz painter list made its way into day 2 of SCG NJ. I would love to see the list :). I wonder how the Miracle MU is.Sad, just as we get some interest in a new build, Dig through time goes bye bye. In other news, old school UR painter, (see my list above) is still playing out fine. I like it.
It might be worthwhile to think about that now, especially since one of the bad matchups, just got (presumably) a lot less popular and or morphed back into Sneak and Show which is way easier to beat than Omnitell.
I am excited about testing against whatever tweaks happen to miracles for a full assessment. In general, I think the B&R annoucnement was positive for UR painter.
Depends on the build obviously. More exactly how many maindeck Blasts and the type of engine. E.g. I played a build with Thoughtcast and Snapcaster as a draw engine and it crushed Miracles, because they couldnt handle the amount of cardadvantage.
BBB
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