[Deck] Painter-Stone

[Hawaii]

Yes, if only I could scrounge up 4x Imperial Recruiter I'd be all set...

[Whippoorwill]

Was going through various cards and came across one that could possibly work in this deck. If its been discussed before, my apologies.

Artificer's Intuition

The card has very limited use and is in the 'danger of doing cool things' zone, but most of the artifacts in the deck can be searched for with it and the discarding works well with Welder.

Example: Pitch Painter to find a Grindstone to complete the combo.

It would probably be best with the Bomberman transition from the board.

[Whippoorwill]

Went 4-4 at the Seattle Open. 3 of the losses were due to big play errors on my part. I'll type up a report shortly.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...e&goto=newpost

[mulder]

I've been utterly unimpressed witht he Blood Moons in the sb. Most decks run enough basics not to be bothered by it, or play mountains themselves or have mana fixers like BoP, Noble Hierarch.
Since i'm having trouble with zoo, wouldn't it be a good idea to replace them with Razormane Masticores to improve the matchup?

[Chikenbok]

@ Whippoor - Seems like the Swords/Thopter combo came out almost every round, anything you'd replace it with in future tournaments?

[Whippoorwill]

I've been utterly unimpressed with the Blood Moons in the sb. Most decks run enough basics not to be bothered by it, or play mountains themselves or have mana fixers like BoP, Noble Hierarch.

I've been quite happy with them. Granted there's quite a few decks where you won't want them, but there's also times where it will just win you games. Lots of decks are using high amounts of non-basics right now, so its worth considering.

@ Whippoor - Seems like the Swords/Thopter combo came out almost every round, anything you'd replace it with in future tournaments?

I like the idea of having the combo available as a backup, but it was generally the first thing I cut when Sideboarding. I'll probably cut them for the 2 Spellskites and cut the maindeck Crypt for a Wurmcoil Engine as a backup plan since I can always Entomb it with a Transmute Artifact if I have an active Welder.

Alternately I may add the 4th Misstep in place of the Crypt.

[JimmyC27]

Hi there,

I was thinking about trying this deck at a local tournament this week. Our metagame is pretty diverse, so I see pretty much everything. I've only seen 1 or 2 Hive Mind decks lately.

I had two questions: 1) what do you sideboard out for the SnT+Emrakul plan? (I realize the debate says this might not be a great SB plan, but I wanted to test it out); and 2) has anyone tried Progenitus over Emrakul to get around Karakas?

I would probably be bringing SnT in against aggro decks like Zoo.


My list for reference:

4 Painter
4 Grindstone
4 Welder

4 FOW
4 Misstep
2 Pyroblast
1 REB

4 Intuition
4 Top
4 Brainstorm

3 Mox Opal
1 LED

21 Lands

SB:

4 Show and Tell
3 Emrakul
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pithing Needle
2 REB
1 Pyroblast



Thanks,

Jimmy

[deadlock]

Are their any other applications of Sundial besides Hivemind? If not then it would be an extremly narrow choice (related to Whippoorwill decision to run it).
If Hivemind is a huge concern then I would run Stifle, which looks actually an amazing in this deck. Most importantly it can hit Deed, Pridemage and Wasteland. While a one for one on the hand, which doesnt make it a permanent answer, it is a huge tempo boost on the other hand. E.g against Deed, they cast it and lets say, blow it for 1 - thats 4 mana vs our 1 mana. In case of Needle they wouldnt even bother to cast it in many cases. This amplies to Pridemage and Waste too. It may even blow out people if used on a first turn fetch. Not that this is related to the decks strategy, but the tempo boost might be enough to get ahead significantly.

Has someone actually tested Tezzeret, he looks so intriguing with his ability to tutor for both combo pieces and self protecting cards like Bridge, Spellskite or Needle on of the alt win option. The casting of of 5 is the only obstacle in my eyes, still with Opal and Sol lands it might work out okay.

[Di]

Are their any other applications of Sundial besides Hivemind? If not then it would be an extremly narrow choice (related to Whippoorwill decision to run it).
If Hivemind is a huge concern then I would run Stifle, which looks actually an amazing in this deck. Most importantly it can hit Deed, Pridemage and Wasteland. While a one for one on the hand, which doesnt make it a permanent answer, it is a huge tempo boost on the other hand. E.g against Deed, they cast it and lets say, blow it for 1 - thats 4 mana vs our 1 mana. In case of Needle they wouldnt even bother to cast it in many cases. This amplies to Pridemage and Waste too. It may even blow out people if used on a first turn fetch. Not that this is related to the decks strategy, but the tempo boost might be enough to get ahead significantly.

Has someone actually tested Tezzeret, he looks so intriguing with his ability to tutor for both combo pieces and self protecting cards like Bridge, Spellskite or Needle on of the alt win option. The casting of of 5 is the only obstacle in my eyes, still with Opal and Sol lands it might work out okay.

Sundial's applications are primarily limited to Hive Mind, but it does have the benefit of forcing people to play everything at sorcery speed given people won't want to walk into having things "countered" on your turn from it. Then again, I'd be surprised if it was boarded in against anything but Hive Mind, with the exceptions for rare decks like Stax, Solidarity, etc. That said, it's still the best hate card this deck can use for it. Nobody would argue Stifle's usefulness against Hive Mind or anything else, but I'd prefer Sundial given the synergy it has with the rest of the deck, using it with Welder or Transmute Artifact. Given there's already an answer for permanent-based abilities in Pithing Needle, I don't think it's worth running Stifle in addition to it when there's a better hate card available in Sundial.

As for Tezzeret, I was rather disappointed when I tried him. Even with acceleration I still found him quite difficult to cast consistently, and this is coming from a build running Grim Monolith. In most cases, I'd have to immediately tutor Ensnaring Bridge just to protect him from dying the following turn, and if I got a combo piece instead, he would die the next turn and essentially be nothing better than a 3UU tutor. In matchups that he would live a few turns he was solid, but at that point I'd rather just run more copies of Intuition/Transmute Artifact/Trinket Mage/Thirst for Knowledge/etc simply because they're a lot faster and achieve the same thing.

[Whippoorwill]

I like the idea of Thirst, so I'll probably try that at some point and see how it goes. It sounds especially nice when you have excess Opals in your hand that you can pitch.

Recently another card crossed my mind as a possible sideboard option based on the current popular decks.

Bribery

With so many people playing Emrakul (either Main or Sideboard) and Progenitus, why not punish them for it? I'm likely going to add 2 of them to my board mainly because of LGS opponents adding Emrakul to their boards just for me. Also works nicely against Reanimator and potentially Dredge (steal their Iona, name Black). I think this would be the best time to try out Thirst as well since I'd only be running 2. I could also cut a Blood Moon in the board since I wouldn't have to worry about Intuitioning for 3.

Edit: Do you think Monolith would be neccessary with this change, or should the basic mana base be ok with just Ancient Tombs and Opals work?

[deadlock]

Thirst is more a control card than a combo card, but could be very strong in control heavy metas. While not directly comparable, one should notice that Thirst is restricted in Vintage unlike the other choices (disregard as you please). It just feels like casting a Thirst against aggro is a suboptimal move, considering a typical Painter shell. It makes the deck slower, but gives us a way to refill our hand. In my opinion in order to make Thirst work we have to add Ensnaring Bridge (main or side).

Bribery is certainly very interesting, but the 5 mana are quite problematic. Same as Tezzeret I guess, which is a fantastic card besides his mana cost. On the other hand Show and Tell decks and NO Rug doesnt run any mana disruption, so you might pull it off. It is still pretty hefty, as you often want to have Blast mana up as well, which requires 6 mana. This would make it more attractive in a Transmute / Grim build, which already has alt-win options, so this might be overkill. On the other hand we have to look at concrete Transmute targets. Input from someone who has expierence with this build would be nice at this point. Against combo decks Platinum Angel looks pretty solid for example, but its still 4 mana and a Grim to be sacced.
On second thought, Bribery looks pretty powerful, but is more narrow than Tezzeret, which can be used against both combo and control. For example if you side in Bribery against Hivemind, you are not protected against a Pact kill and can just hope kill with Bribery -> Emrakul before he resolves his Hivemind or his own Emrakul. With Tezzeret you can search a Sundial or a Ensnaring Bridge (or both after a couple of turns), depending on what you fear more in the respective situation.
Consider this sample board:
3 Blood Moon
3 Blast
3 Bridge
2 Tezz
1 Needle
1 Sundial
1 Crypt
1 Spellskite
Note thatn you cut away the Tezz package and replace it with other cards, (e.g Misdirection / Spellskite / Stifle), but I think the base configuration of 3 Moon, 3 Blast, 3 Bridge is extremely strong and versatile.

It pretty much boils down on the g2/3 gameplan against problematic decks, do we try to push through the combo at all cost and reinforce it with board cards like Spellskite, together with a suited maindeck like Wilson Hunters GP list OR do we add an alt win with a more Transmute / Grim centric list?
Till now I played with first approach only, which I view as faster, but a little bit more fragile (scoop to two Progeni / Surgical Extraction etc.). Additionally Show and Tell decks really pick up in Germany (two top 8 in one of the biggest german events), so adjusting the deck might be necessary.

[Whippoorwill]

I agree the 5 mana cost is an issue (for Bribery), but at the same time when an opponent has Emrakul in their deck, the 2 card combo now becomes a 3 card combo since Crypt is now needed. With Bribery it becomes essentially a 1 card combo if you resolve it since they likely won't have creature removal that can kill Emrakul. Progenitus isn't much of a problem since that just gives them 1 turn to win and Progenitus will be in their hand.

Till now I played with first approach only, which I view as faster, but a little bit more fragile (scoop to two Progeni / Surgical Extraction etc.).

Don't scoop to 2x Progenitus, if that comes up the game will be a draw. So no reason to give yourself an unneccessaary loss.

[deadlock]

I agree the 5 mana cost is an issue (for Bribery), but at the same time when an opponent has Emrakul in their deck, the 2 card combo now becomes a 3 card combo since Crypt is now needed. With Bribery it becomes essentially a 1 card combo if you resolve it since they likely won't have creature removal that can kill Emrakul. Progenitus isn't much of a problem since that just gives them 1 turn to win and Progenitus will be in their hand.

Against Emrakul I often side out combo pieces and try to go for a Welder + Intution play, getting all three combo pieces at once. Problem is if he gets a Leyline out, then its a 4 card combo basically, as you need a Blast as well >.<
What I was trying to say, while Bribery is a 1 card combo, it doesnt interact with their gameplan. They can still cast they own Emra and thus reseting the game state, only that they have have more ways to go off again, or they can simply go for Hivemind.

Don't scoop to 2x Progenitus, if that comes up the game will be a draw. So no reason to give yourself an unneccessaary loss.

You misunderstood me here, I am not concerned about the draw, but about winning. Its just frustrating to try and get a grindstone activation only to find out that they have 2 Progeni or something. Its not a solution to say just draw, you draw in the best case and lose in the worst.

Besides this, do you have any input on a solid list? Did you still use Cryp and the Thopter combo maindeck, which looks a little bit too much imo, as I would prefer to play either cryp or an alt win maindeck, if at all. Speaking off Thopter, how do you like the combo in general? I figured that it is pretty strong together and currently trying to make it work in a deck which is build around it (in the new and develop. forum).

Edit:
Played a standard Painter list in a small local tournament to a 3-2 finish, lost against Stoneblade (partly because of play mistakes) and the mirror, which I find very hard.
Currently as I see it, the Intuition based list is the strongest, but has the most problems with the above mentioned scenarios. Transmute lists have good access to an alt-win, but look slower and weaker in other cases. For that reason I will try to find a good alt win for the Intuition list and will go back to Show and Tell + Emrakul in the worst case (or somebody puts up a strong Transmute list).

[lordofthepit]

Why did this deck fall off the map? Mental Misstep?

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Why did this deck fall off the map? Mental Misstep?

Zoo. Emrakul. Progenitus.

[Grymer]

Sundial of the Infinite?? pretty good against Emrakul in GY and hive mind

[Sloshthedark]

browsing result of our local tourney I found an interesting take on Painter of a guy I do not know, taking 4. place of 47 people (+1 round, Top 8 not played I believe), even excluding blue I think it could be most inspiring...

top decklist - http://cernyrytir.cz/index.php3?akce...65&db=clanecky

decklist

4 scalding tarn
4 arid mesa
2 plateau
2 great furnace
3 mountain
3 ancient tomb
1 plains
4 painter's servant
4 goblin welder
3 ethersworn canonist
4 grindstone
4 sensei's diving top
4 enlightened tutor
4 pyroblast
4 red elemental blast
4 mishra's bauble
1 pithing needle
1 tormod's crypt
1 ensnaring bridge
2 gamble
1 lion's eye diamond

side
1 pithing needle
3 tormod's crypt
2 ensnaring bridge
3 shattering spree
3 mindbreak trap
1 phyrexian unlife
2 ricochet trap

[deadlock]

Interesting for sure, would be nice to get some input from the deck creator though.
My first impression is that it is weaker than the blue build, simply based on card comparision - what this build brings to the table compared to an Intuition based list.

Concretely I dont like the lack of Mox Opal, which is an insane card.
Also completly relying on Blasts seems iffy, as they often do nothing without an Painter and are slower than Mental Misstep and FoW.
He obviously has problems getting Welder online, otherwise he wouldnt run crap like Mishras Bauble. Last concern is that he doesnt have an alternate win condition, so he is completely stuck on Painter, which can makes things really difficult in some cases.
An extended discussion of the list warrants its own thread imo, as I dont want to pollute this thread.

[Sloshthedark]

Well I never met him, maybe in next two weeks there is another Cup round I haven't been on this one

I does bring more consistency in E-Tutor, enabling effective silver bullets without relying on GY
I love the Canonist idea as a control element, slowing your opponent, simplifying protection in your BIG turn
8 blasts are ok with me

In blue infested meta it seems strong to me, on the other hand the mishra's bauble and tutors each generate card disadvantage, no MM, and Gamble seems inappropriate... and I wonder why phyrexian unlife is in the SB

I think it belong to this thread because the list still strongly incorporates - Painter-Welder interaction - just with different kind of tutors

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Played this deck to a 5-0 finish getting first place in a 32-person tournament. I beat UB Control, Deadguy Ale, 12-Post, Affinity and Puresteel Paladin. That's pretty much the tournament report right there.

'twas fun.

Here's the list I played. Pretty typical.

21 Land
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Detal
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Mountain
4 Seat of the Synod
3 Great Furnace
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors

9 Creatures
4 Goblin Welder
4 Painter's Servant
1 Wurmcoil Engine

30 Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Intuition
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Grindstone
3 Mental Misstep
3 Mox Opal
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Mindslaver
1 Ensnaring Bridge

15 Sideboard
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Mental Misstep

As for the sideboard, the meta had 3 Dredge decks and 2 Reanimator decks. Probably gonna skip out on the Surgical Extractions next time and throw in Spellskite. Never used Surgical Extraction. Spellskite would have made some of the matchups a lot easier, serving as a blocker and a way to dodge removal without having to use Mental Misstep.

Ask me about Mindslaver.