How do you reliably cast Mindslaver and Wurmcoil Engine?
You don't. I cut them after the tournament.Originally Posted by keys
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Snapcaster Mage is the shit. Check this out
4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Mental Misstep
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Brainstorm
4 Enlightened Tutor
3 Intuition
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Argivian Find
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Tundra
1 Plains
1 Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
1 Windswept Heath
1 Arid Mesa
I personally believe that Mox Opal is fairly inconsistant. Grim Monolith too. I've always disliked Divining Top in Combo decks, and Snapcaster + Enlightened Tutor is much more to the point for a deck like this. What does everyone think? Argivian Find seems really fun with Snapcaster too :P It might be overkill.
Snapcaster effectively helps you on offense and defense efficiently! Multiple STP's, MM's, and Daze on defense, and Tutors for the win, Argivian Find for recursion, and Brainstorm for the rest of the time. I'm really intrigued by Snapcaster's interaction with Enlightened Tutor, because it's the last 1cc broken tutor in Legacy, and the pieces are both targetable. Aggro decks can't really kill faster than turn 3-4, and this list plays 12 soft counters to buy time. I think abandoning the artifact core with Mox Opal is wise, because it lets you run a more stable manabase, with Daze. I'm thinking the list needs a Lion's Eye Diamond to tutor for, but I also think that it's unsafe to go all-in on it when you might hold FoW and Daze...
Last edited by troopatroop; 09-07-2011 at 07:13 PM.
Why wouldn't you just play more Argivian Finds instead of Snapcaster Mage? 10 fetches and no Tops?
Swords to Plowshares are unnecessary. Painter doesn't care about any creature not named Phyrexian Revoker. I really dislike white unless you're splashing for Enlightened Tutor and silver bullets, which is questionable. Goblin Welder and red blasts are much more valuable to the deck.
Also, I assume Forsaken City is City of Traitors.
Because Snapcaster Mage also has synergy with Enlightened Tutor, STP, Brainstorm, and MM.
People need to get the hell over Sensei's Diving Top in combo. I'd rather cast a Ponder, at least that replaces itself.10 fetches and no Tops?
The fact that my deck can fit in 3 Swords is what's crazy, and back them up with Snapcasters. There's nothing wrong with playing Combo-Control, and STP is exactly what you want against Zoo for instance. It gives you oodles of time, and is rarely unwanted for me. Revoker and Painter are good examples of why you want it.Swords to Plowshares are unnecessary. Painter doesn't care about any creature not named Phyrexian Revoker.
Red doesn't give you a reliable way to fetch the combo pieces like Enlightened Tutor. Goblin Welder requires that you play artifacts in play, and none of them are very good, and it all de-stabilizes the deck.I really dislike white unless you're splashing for Enlightened Tutor and silver bullets, which is questionable. Goblin Welder and red blasts are much more valuable to the deck.
Welder can be amazing, but he's far from necessary. Red Blasts are cool.
I gave a thought to Silver Bullets, but what's actually going to help that deck? An LED? An Ensnaring Bridge? Defense Grid or something? I can't think of many things that are going to be more valuable than just tutoring for the win every time.
Top + Top + Welder = Profit is awesome...
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Seems cute, but it's cornercase for sure. I think Snapcaster Mage is powerful, because when attempting to cast Grindstone through a Mental Misstep or even 2, you can wait until turn 3 to have MM protection. He pitches to Force of Will when he's clunk as well, and honestly that's a good amount of time. This deck doesnt need to be worrying about Welder tricks, or getting value out of Top, because you can win the game on the spot.
Compare Divining Top to Enlightened Tutor. They're BOTH card disadvantage, but Enlightened Tutor finds exactly what you need. The list I posted is extremely redundant, in that it's extremely focussed on Finding, Protecting, and Recurring the combo pieces. Diving Top is fine in the Mox Opal build, because it gives you easier Metalcraft (which is value!), but I find that whole package a bit dissapointing. Painter-Grindstone isn't married to anything in reality.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attac...0&d=1315454614
Either sweet tech against Painter, or just in case you accidentally mill yourself (I'm talking to you, Whipoorwill)
-Matt
I'm never going to live that down. :(
I don't think its that good against the UR versions though since most run REB/Pyroblast either main or side. I think its more interesting as an option for us to run.
So, MMS is banned. That essentially re-kills Hive Mind. We can be a deck again. What do we put in MMS' place?
I wouldn't be so sure. It was not a big deal with a tormod's crypt in the maindeck. And I'm not sure that hive mind relies on MM so much. As I know some players successfully played without MMs.
The main problem as I see it, is that zoo is going to return. One of the worst matchups for us will become harder without MM for all that 1-mana removal spells. And I cannot think of anything that could replace MM. Perhaps it's time to play spellskite in the maindeck.
Nothing is true, everything is permitted...
I haven't tested Hive Mind without MMS so I'm only assuming the deck will be fine since it still has 4x FoW and 4x PoN to push its combo through. But that was really a easy matchup for Painter anyways.
As for the MMS banning, losing it hurts Painter more than it helps since it was a real boon for the deck. Like Door said, a lot of the 1-mana removal spells will be harder to deal with. Painter has been out of the spotlight lately but I think it can be good again so I may put it back together or not. The last tournament I played the deck, I was the only Painter player out of 50 people and I faced a Rock deck running one Gaea's Blessing in the SB and a Dredge running one Darksteel Colossus in the SB.
Losing Misstep indeed hurts Painter a bit, but can be partially offset by running 3-4 Spellskite maindeck. Misstep's best use in Painter was to nerf Swords to Plowshares, and Spellskite does that really well, in addition to being insane in many other ways. Most lists already ran ~2 of them anyway in their 75, so it's rather logical to just bump them up.
But I think the glaring problem the banning of Misstep creates is the effect it has on the deck's blue count for FoW. I tend to not count Painter's ability towards this as Force usually helps resolve it in the first place, so I do think we'll likely have to add in other blue cards to make up for the loss. Most lists ran 15-16 blue cards between FoW, Misstep, Brainstorm, and Intuition/Transmute Artifact, which is pushing it already, so to lose 25% of that is rough. In order to get good value for FoW, there will have to be an additional blue card put into the deck, whether it's Trinket Mage, Thirst for Knowledge, Misdirection, etc., otherwise it'll most likely be dead half the time.
I also think it makes a bit more sense to maindeck REBs now again, although I'm not sure if they're necessarily better than Spellskite, and it doesn't really solve the issue of the blue count for FoW.
Then lets go back to an older style list. Nothing's stopping us from REBing STP once we resolve Painter.
4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone
4 Goblin Welder
2 Trinket Mage
3 Mox Opal
4 Sensei's Divning Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Intuition
4 Force of Will
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Seat of the Synod
3 Great Furnace
3 Volcanic Island
5 Fetchlands
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
1 Island
That leaves two spots to fill.
I like the list Sintheros, my biggest concern like Di pointed out is the blue count without having to rely on Painter. Those last two open slots will have to be blue, which will put it at the bare minimum 16 blue cards. They could probably be Transmute Artifacts or Misdirections.
I don't know what you guys are talking about. Banning MM is a HUGE gain for Painter. The card took up slots that blasts do better. Now we don't have to worry as much about any of our insane turn 1 plays getting countered for 2 life. Metalcraft will be easier. Welder will stick. Turn 2-3 kills will be possible again. MM slowed Painter down considerably, allowing the opponent too much time to find removal/artifact hate.
Regarding the blue count, FoW is usually protection for Painter once it hits the battlefield and when you activate Grindstone. The blasts are there to push it through counters, and then deal with problem permanents. You're not going to lose to counterspells post board when you have 5+ blasts. I have no problem playing FoW with 14-16 blue spells for this reason.
Sintheros, your list is only a few cards off mine. I use Transmute Artifact instead of Trinket Mage, since it gets both sides of the combo, as well as silver bullets like Ensnaring Bridge and Sundial of the Infinite, which are necessary if you want to beat Hive Mind (and potentially Solidarity if that deck takes off because of Snapcaster Mage). I play Bridge and Tormod's Crypt in the 2 open slots you mentioned, with another Crypt and Sundial in the board. I'm also playing the 4th blast over the LED.
That's the initial thought by most and what I thought when MMS was first spoiled, but after playing extensively the pre-MMS and post-MMS lists, the lists with MMS were simply much better. I don't think Painter ever had trouble with the blue decks that ran MMS since they were slow and gave us a lot of time to setup. Whereas the inclusion of MMS in our lists helped with the matchups that didn't run it (I.E. Zoo, TES, Junk, Burn, etc). I'll gladly fight my opponents MMS over Lightning Bolts, Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exiles, and Chain Lightnings. It's easy to say "just drop a Painter naming blue and blast any removal", but many times you're on a clock against those decks and need to tap out and that free MMS shows its worth in spades.
None of those decks except Zoo were a significant part of the metagame post NPH. Our problem matchups were NO RUG and Hive Mind.
MM did nothing against Hive Mind except counter their own MMs. NO RUG just had too many answers (burn, blasts, Grudge) for MM to make a difference.
The way I see it, all the DTB lose MM and pick up Spell Pierce, Daze, and/or Spell Snare, which are significantly less offensive on our turn 1. We lose MM and pick up blasts, which are slightly slower but much more versatile; they give us more outs to permanents like Energy Flux, Pithing Needle, Null Rod, Leyline of Sanctity, and the new white Null Rod enchantment. Any of these, if unanswered, are GG. I'd rather fight through Lightning Bolts, Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exiles, and Chain Lightnings than any of those.
Basically, I'm just happy I don't have to play MM to beat MM anymore.
Basically this. Painter w/MMS is better than Painter w/o MMS. However, Painter w/o MMS is better vs a metagame w/o MMS than Painter w/MMS is against a metagame w/MMS. If you know what I mean. We're better positioned now. Plus we still get Spellskite out of the deal to throw in against Zoo and Burn and nonsense like that.
It is pointless to discuss which version is better in a vacuum and has to be considered in relation to other / future metagame decks as pointed out.
In regard to the 4 free slots, I agree that it is a good idea to play at least three blue spells in these slots for a total of 16 blue cards. Before the banning I played Wilson Hunters GP list, which I considered to be perfect (the maindeck). The cards I consider for the open slots are:
- Misdirection
- Transmute Artifact
- LED
- Blast
I will start my testing with +2 Misdirection, +1 Transmute Artifact and either the third Blast or the second LED. Relying heavily on Blasts in the maindeck is a mistake in my opinion, but running three is still okay (opposed to 4-5). Going for a speed build with the second (and maybe even a third LED) doesnt look that good either, as it is very all-inish in many cases. So I lean towards the third Blast, also considering that Merfolk and CB might rise. Is there a good reason to run Trinket Mage over Transmute? While TA is card disadvantage, it tutors for both pieces and is another Welder enabler.
Finally I think that running Spellskite in the maindeck is a poor choice compared to Misdirection, which is much faster and versatile. While Spellskite can be amazing, I am concerned that it is dead in some matchups. I might be wrong and I would like to hear some reasoning behind Spellskite compared to the other possibilties.
EDIT: I forgot about Spell Pierce, which is a good choice in my opinion. I currently run 2 Misdirection and 2 Spell Pierce in the MM slots.
Last edited by deadlock; 09-23-2011 at 06:56 AM. Reason: Spell Pierce
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