mmm, maybe young pyromancer?
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The sideboarding plan you suggested puts us at only 23 Sorceries/instants if we dont' side out any Transmutes. My opinion is that this is too few to have a solid delver plan with only 4 brainstorm and two tops. Similarly it dampens the impact of YP.
It seems to me that a solid plan if you are worried about getting attacked by TNN and other creatures from tempo is to swap some of the SB'd ensnaring bridges to the main deck. If people are playing more creature removal in UWR doesn't it stand to reason that we should just play other hard to remove permanents, over the course of a long game it doesn't seem as difficult to assemble a winning hand/top of deck, if our opponents have no outs in g1 to bridge just sitting in play. The rise of TNN and fall of BG strategies seems way better to me. Maybe swap 1x wurmcoil to the board and 1-2 copies of something else for 2-3 bridge main. I still think this requires us to possibly go up to 3 top and maybe add the LED back in, but that doesn't seem to bad.
I also would think about playing 1-2 spellskite main, especially if other combo decks are declining, we could play some over force of will potentially.
@turingTested on twitter
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これは水である。
MB Bridge: this is quite common in mono red and very effective. Could easily replace wurmcoil engine as the creature hate. Auto lose to burn now though :). (Is that even worth considering). Also since the tempo push has even further increased the Sneaky Showy decks, could be really good.
MB Spellskite: I don't like this one. I like a 1 of in mono red with IR, but not here so much. The could is a beast SB though. But maybe I'm wrong.
I think there is some serious tuning needed to be made if we are going to survive.
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I still think Wumcoil is quite good (in the relevant MUs) remember that people don't always insta-audible to the "best" version of whatever deck they should be playing Legacy players like to play the same decks, so tempo decks are going to continue to exist without swords. In the meantime, here is the list I would probably run for this deck with TNN in mind:
Combo (13)
4x Grindstone
4x Painter's Servant
4x Goblin Welder
1x Tormod's Crypt
Tutors/Card Draw (12)
3x Intuition
3x Transmute artifact
4x Brainstorm
2x Sensei's Divining Top
Protection (7)
4x Force of Will
3x Red Elemental Blast
Testing slots (3)
2x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Wurmcoil Engine
Mana (25)
2x Grim Monolith
2x Mox Opal
1x Lion's Eye Diamond
4xScalding Tarn
2xPolluted Delta
3x Island
3x Seat of the Synod
1x Mountain
1x Great Furnace
2x Volcanic Island
3x Ancient Tomb
1x Academy Ruins
I cut the City of Traitors because i haven't been liking it as much, but if would rather cut Academy Ruins I could see that. I like it a lot, other people are unimpressed and I can see that it might be a bit slow. I also cut 1x Wurmcoil and as a result cut 1 Grim Monolith since it isn't as critical for this build with fewer wurmcoils, and added back in 1x LED, since that increases the ability to just slam a win onto the table. If you don't like LED you can easily run the 3rd Monolith in that spot, I absolutely don't like going below 25 mana sources.
Random thoughts:
Another thing to consider out of the board instead of/in addition to Spellskite might be Defense Grid, since a lot of these tempo decks don't run a ton of lands, and their defense against our combo is easy access to swords and counters.
Last edited by merfolkotpt; 12-10-2013 at 08:33 AM. Reason: Counting
@turingTested on twitter
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これは水である。
How about 4 Gitaxian Probe? Cut a *gasp* mana source (since we’re thinning the deck), Wurmcoil Engine, and Ensnaring Bridge? With Gitaxian Probe we know what to play around and we can get to the combo just a tiny bit faster.
We are trying to figure out how to beat decks running TNN, counters, and swords to plowshares as our main concern at the moment, I don't know that probe necessarily helps with that. In addition, in my experience finding the combo hasn't been the main problem with winning with the deck. Maybe I am wrong, but probe doesn't seem to be the solution.
@turingTested on twitter
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これは水である。
Spot on. Probe might assist in narrow instances, but not as an overall solution.
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So I am contemplating playing this weekend in the Columbus open with Painter. This would be the list I am going to try:
I think my sideboard is going to look like this:Combo (13)
4x Grindstone
4x Painter's Servant
4x Goblin Welder
1x Tormod's Crypt
Tutors/Card Draw (12)
3x Intuition
3x Transmute artifact
4x Brainstorm
2x Sensei's Divining Top
Protection (7)
4x Force of Will
3x Red Elemental Blast
Testing slots (3)
2x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Wurmcoil Engine
Mana (25)
2x Grim Monolith
2x Mox Opal
1x Lion's Eye Diamond
4xScalding Tarn
2xPolluted Delta
3x Island
3x Seat of the Synod
1x Mountain
1x Great Furnace
2x Volcanic Island
3x Ancient Tomb
1x Academy Ruins
3x Spellskite
2x Tormod's Crypt
3x Flusterstorm
3x Bloodmoon
1x REB
2x Sphere of Resistance
1x Ensnaring Bridge
I want to see if we Painter can hang in the current meta, and I think sphere of resistance + main deck ensnaring bridge is the answer. Let me know if your testing has led you anywhere different.
@turingTested on twitter
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I went back to mono red iPainter. Meta shift to greedy tempo decks are great for mono red.
I struggled with UR painter against blue temp decks. So right now, I don't think its a great choice.
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Hi,
It seems that here is the only active thread on UR Painter. I plan on playing this deck in GP Paris next week and I’ve been working on it for about a month now. I’m still changing a few things here and there but I like the way the deck plays, especially against fair decks, and it’s a bit different from the usual lists. Any suggestions appreciated, and thanks for reading.
youch
MAINDECK
Lands (21, yes I like hitting my land drops)
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
1 Polluted Delta
2 Great Furnace
3 Ancient Tomb
3 Island
3 Seat of the Synod
3 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
Creatures (10)
1 Lodestone Golem
1 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Goblin Welder
4 Painter's Servant
1 Ensnaring Bridge
Artifacts (14)
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Mox Opal
3 Grim Monolith
4 Grindstone
4 Sensei's Divining Top
Instants (11)
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Brainstorm
2 Pyroblast
3 Intuition
3 Lightning Bolt
Sorceries (3)
3 Transmute Artifact
SIDEBOARD
1 Lightning Bolt
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Swan Song
3 Flusterstorm
2 Electrickery
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Sphere of Resistance
1 Trinisphere
What’s the deal ?
One of the goals of this version is, while keeping a good access to the fast combo (welder, transmute, intuition), to be able to fight fair decks, even in the long run, by being more solid and less all in. Main changes :
- 0* Force of Will in the 75: I know this seems strange but I really feel losing a card puts you behind in every stage of the game unless you protect your win. If the game lasts a bit longer, Opponents Forces/Dazes/Spell pierces become less relevant. There are more solutions to delver, TNN can be countered and Tarmo is a pain as usual but you have more time to setup your win.
- Lightning bolt : That card is very good in the format. Delver, Stoneforge, Elves, D&T, Meddling Mage, Clique … For 1 mana, you can deal with many of the cards that impose a clock on you. Post Board, having 4 bolts and 5 Reb effects is really a confort against Delver strategies.
These changes make the game go longer, hence I prefer Tops to Brainstorms.
- 0* Tormod’s Crypt in the main : Ok, that one is a bit risky but to be honest, it’s a really bad card in many matchups. Moreover, S&T has almost never a MD answer to Ensnaring Bridge so I feel it is enough (then you can win with tons of 3/3 wurmcoil tokens from welder). It requires you to land a welder at some point but I think it’s worth the risk. It sucks though vs. Omnitell type decks or other random Emrakul decks. On the positive side, Ensnaring Bridge is a much better magic card can also be auto win vs. decks like RUG delver (assuming you have enough life not to die to bolts but still saves a tremendous amount of time)
- Lodestone Golem : as you have seen, this list is very soft to fast combo decks. However, landing a fast golem from transmute, welder or just hardcast is really really good. One slot for some chance against these decks is a good deal. Morover, it’s a generally good magic card.
Post SB :
Vs. Combo, I privilege efficient 1 mana countermagic. I feel that by just doing land drops, keeping countermagic in hand and slowly (or quickly) assembling the combo works pretty well. The 6 new 1mana counterspells are really handy here. Rebs are also good.
Electrickery is mainly for elves which I think will be in high numbers in Paris and finally, some one ofs artifacts which are pretty self explanatory.
I have a couple thoughts about this list, though I don't think you are totally off base with some of these thoughts.
First, I am not that impressed with Lightning Bolt, we are never going to win through damage without the help of Wurmcoil, and even then rarely, so if you absolutely must have a removal spell I would advocate for flame slash. That being said, I think those are wasted slots 90% of the time. Were I you I would play more ensnaring bridge to slow down the clock of the format, or something else that can at least be welded. Lightning Bolt is a good card in the format, but it is at its worst in a deck that never goes to the dome with it. I would also just consider splashing a color (black is popular for strix, and I have seen decent versions with white as well) if you want to go further down the control route.
As for cutting Brainstorms for Top and talking about wanting more lands. I think these things are related. Top is super mana hungry as is the deck. While both are good in my experience Brainstorm is one of the last cards i would cut numbers on. Especially when i am worried about how often i hit lands.
Lastly, If you want a one of "trump card" in the matchup against combo can I suggest something besides Lodestone? I would say either sphere of resistance or Thorn. They are more likely to have removal for something that is both an artifact and a creature. Lodestone doesn't come out quickly enough to be relevant off of transmute, and Thorn is more likely to be effective agaisnt them, as a artifact fueled combo turn is not unheard of.
For your sideboard, I have never had a hard time with elves but my deck is faster as you admitted, why not just play pyroclasm to kill their deathrite shamans, and Nettle Sentinels too? Yes it kills your Welder, but wiping their board seems potentially more relevant. I also am not a fan of Pithing Needle, general solutions seem less than ideal in a deck like this. We are the broken deck generally, we want our opponents to react to us, I generally side with doing more to trump their trumps as opposed to worrying about them beating us. They have to disrupt us (in most cases) to win.
That all aside, I like the move to a slower version. I believe a couple pages there are some versions with Counterbalance and even some as I said, splashing black for some combination of strix, bob and tezzeret and those have been effective in the right meta.
Good luck in Paris! Hope you do well.
@turingTested on twitter
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The fast builds of UR painter have a better matchup against decks that would play Spirit of the Labyrinth than Imperial Painter decks do.
I think that the problem with current UR lists is that people are trying to make Grim Monolith happen. I think people should try accepting UR painter for what it is and just go with it instead of weakening it to shore up matchups that you will probably lose anyway.
I got 6th in a 33 person tournament last weekend with this list,
4 Painter's Servant
4 Goblin Welder
4 Force of Will
4 Intuition
4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
4 Grindstone
2 Transmute Artifact
3 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Mox Opal
4 Volcanic Island
4 Seat of the Synod
3 Great Furnace
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
1 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Island
-
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
4 Divert
4 Sower of Temptation
1 Pithing Needle
It's fast and Divert catches people with their pants down. I think if you aren't playing Imperial Painter that should be your plan. UR painter is a pretty bad control deck when you build it like that. It's always worked best for me to play it like this.
Hill Giant means business.
Agreed, I think jamming Moons has never been so strong with so many people on ridiculously greedy mana and loam/lands/depth decks becoming more popular over the last couple months. Look at some of the top BUG/RUG lists running zero basics, if you T0-T1 a moon you'll often get an auto-concede.
This is true... but Ur can also play Moons in the sideboard.
The only similarity between these decks is the combo pieces. The way they play, good and bad matchups are very different. Ur also really wants to exploit Welder, where as R/Rw uses it as a toolbox card.
The advantages of Ur are pure speed, and protection. It also has a much better combo matchup. Being able to slam an early WCE also really helps the fair deck matchups.
Where it is weak is the UWR Delver/Nemesis matchup, Rug Delver and other tempo decks. R/Rw has a better matchup here.
However, from my last several tourneyments the meta hasn't been so defined (at least from my local scene), so I have trouble stating that one is truly better than the other.
I just read Drew Levin's article this week about build an ensnaring bridge deck, and as I read I kept coming back to the idea that UR painter is already a lot of this.
I think I am going to work on a major reworking of the deck to include 3x Ensnaring bridge main, and maybe change around the tutor package a bit. I also am considering a change to the cantrip/card draw suite. This might seems crazy, but I think a large change might be in order for painter to be good again.
@turingTested on twitter
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Mono Red and even the white splash have been doing Bridges MD for a while now. Seems counter intuitive for a deck wanting to cantrip, it is good
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