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Thread: [Deck] Painter-Stone

  1. #41
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    Re: [PRIMER] U/R Painter

    First, most game ones against no show should end in a draw. If you're conceding every time, you're doing it wrong. Second, having wurmcoils is a lot better than nothing. A smart opponent will board out his show and tells for Goyfs, but keep the Emrakuls in because that's your only win con. Beating with Welders and Painters is not realistic after Goyfs come in. On the other hand, if your opponent knows you don't play show and tell, or he just decides not to board his out in any case, you can tutor for Duplicant. They don't play removal so your Welders are pretty strong. An Emrakul will outrace a Wurmcoil, but not a Dup.

    Also, don't forget about countermagic. Forces and blasts can stall for a long time if you need to.

    Quote Originally Posted by PanderAlexander View Post
    Didn't I borrow a Null Rod from you for the last tournament :)

    I just bought my own playset of them last week.
    You borrowed them for all of 3 minutes before changing decks lol.

  2. #42

    Re: [PRIMER] U/R Painter

    Why is Show and Tell in SB? because its totally different and unrelated to the rest of the deck except for blue mana, that's it ...
    Ive tested the reanimation plan and is usually too slow or ineffective... its more tempting with the Transmute Artifact, which you cannot cast consistently, and welders will usually get killed asap anyway by these decks... zoo will sword them, sneakshow race them, with burn the turn hardcasting it you would be probably dead anyway... still it looks like a considerable SB option while playing Transmute artifact, but not to replace S&T as a whole

    with grim monolith you end up with a different deck...
    http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=1163

  3. #43

    Re: [PRIMER] U/R Painter

    Quote Originally Posted by Sloshthedark View Post
    Why is Show and Tell in SB? because its totally different and unrelated to the rest of the deck except for blue mana, that's it ...
    Ive tested the reanimation plan and is usually too slow or ineffective... its more tempting with the Transmute Artifact, which you cannot cast consistently, and welders will usually get killed asap anyway by these decks... zoo will sword them, sneakshow race them, with burn the turn hardcasting it you would be probably dead anyway... still it looks like a considerable SB option while playing Transmute artifact, but not to replace S&T as a whole

    with grim monolith you end up with a different deck...
    http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=1163
    Have you tested Transmute Artifact? You can absolutely cast it consistently. I wasn't advocating the Wurmcoil plan, S&T plus Emrakul has been lights out vs bad match-ups. Not sure why others don't like it.

  4. #44
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    Re: [PRIMER] U/R Painter

    Will try to keep this brief :D (sorry was on vacation for a while no Internet + TV for a few days needed to regain my sanity lol)

    @Keys -- Wonderful idea on the trasmute artifact tech package. I actually read about this in Eternal Central during my research on Painter/G-stone. However I did not mention it at all because of the fact that I have not found any recorded decks reaching top 8 (in any tournament) that utilized this type of tech. Not saying its bad. But maybe it hasnt been tested enough yet? Anybody here wanna test this?

    In Eldrazi/NO show matchups game 1, I would strategicaly give them the win and try to win quick G2 and G3's with GY hate SB. Especially in particular areas where time limits are strictly followed. I need to watch pros fight decks like this to get a better feel, as usually G1 has the lowest win% so if i think he has the advantage i'll scoop before revealing more of my deck to him.

    @nayon -- Sadly its an uphill battle. Not impossible. However it requires you to beat down your opponent to death with a painter and goblins :p (not exactly a sexy win but a win nevertheless...) I think Alex has experienced this before? Usually if your expecting a heavy emrakul field try to MD X 1 Crypt. (in replacement of a LED or land)

    @Sroncor1 -- I actually tried MD wurmcoils in my meta for a week. It helped quite a bit as it allowed me to use "tricks" (i was careful to not use the word "combo" as you are correct in that respect) against Sui Black decks and fast weenie decks. While it is not exactly an optimal solution it does provide me wins when my painter finish does not become available in Game 1.

    Personally I think Imperial variants are probably the best versions out there. However the main reason painter/grindstone works so well is that the Meta is usually unprepared to handle it.

    @Sloshthedark-- Totally agree

    @Doomsday -- Well as much as possible we would like to play arround with the deck. Its good. But we want it better :D Which would also mean trying out different ideas. Legacy is a wonderful meta :D If we dont evolve others will surpass us :p

    By the way did anybody here test out the Transmute tech?

    Has everybody seen this article from Starcity? http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...Last_Four.html

    Lots of wonderful information here for staticians and analysts :D I get goosebumps reading this data. I think were going to have trouble. Seems that painter does very well in the past couple of legacy tourneys. But because of that people might start copying the deck... making the meta evolve against us T.T

  5. #45

    Re: [PRIMER] U/R Painter

    So lets just say NPH is out. Does the deck suddenly look something like...

    4 Painter
    4 Grindstone
    3 LED
    3 Opal
    4 Top

    4 Welder

    4 Brainstorm
    4 MMS
    4 Force
    4 Intuition

    5 Fetches
    1 Island
    4 Volc Island
    3 Tomb
    2 City
    4 Seat
    3 Furnace

    (For the unobservant, that's -2 MD REBs, -1 Trinket Mage, -the 2nd mage/Misdirection, +4 MMS)


    Also, for what its worth, I hate casting Force in this deck if Painter isn't in play. Removing any other blue card sucks. Brainstorm and Intuition are far too good to drop to Force.

  6. #46

    Re: [PRIMER] U/R Painter

    @Doomsday

    I said I haven't, i tried only counterbalances, which was usually a dead card due to its CC, so I'm skeptic about the TA for this reason but I know both would be played under different conditions and board positions... I would really love to play it, and for sure I will try every option, but it will make deck more fun and a bit worse I feel.. If you play it and like then do so! Mtg is not about playing generic lists (I hope so), I never play standard lists and have my own take on Painter from my previous experience and tuned to my meta, it's a bit different and I'm comfortable with it


    @Professor
    I'm happy to be mostly unaffected by whatever is on the Starcity to read other than top 16, as European scene plays under different rules a bit (and is considered more "competitive", at least by the europeans) and you face minor decks more often.. On the other hand, I'm a bit sad about mr. Kwan winning the SCG, its not as I would not like him or his play, but its not good for the archetype, Painter is not the best combo of all the time and can be beaten quite easily by experienced player, and the popularity creates experienced players or at least familiar with the archetype and get prepared for it... forget the times when you played Grindstone and half of the people had to read the card...
    Still I'm surprised how good Painter went in the statistics...

    @Sintheros

    I think its not be better in theory, make proxies, test it...

    the whole Misstep thing is overrated all over the web in my opinion, I think it will be use extensively at the start then part of the mix in the counter suite and end up with the same role as spell pierce in blue decks - marginal use maindeck, mostly just extending boarding strategies and maybe can somehow balance the die-roll advantage at least I hope so..

    If it could replace Force, I'm 100% in...

  7. #47
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    Re: [PRIMER] U/R Painter

    IMO we should not totaly cut REBs from the maindeck. But with Misstep, hmm it's tough. I think a 2/2 split with REB is ok as REB is just so flexible and can deal with nightmare cards like Revoker (God I hate that card).

    Quote Originally Posted by Tacosnape View Post
    I've always felt that Show and Tell/Emrakul is an absolutely terrible sideboard plan, especially given how bad it is against what you're already weak against: Other decks packing Emrakul.

    Why doesn't the deck pack a combination of more red Blasts and Llawan, Cephalid Empress, who with Painter Servant locks down the opponent's ability to play creature spells? Then with enough Blasts for counter backup, it's pretty easy for Painter and Llawan to just swing for the win over a few turns if you can't get the combo off.
    I think the LLawan + Blasts plan is a great idea. Sure Emmy is great against Show and Tell decks but Painter is not well designed to run the show and tell plan in general. Welder, LED, opal, painter all do not have synergies with Show and Tell. Alexander Kwan wrote in his tourney report that he rarely boarded SNT in and prefered some other method of winning as the plan is not that great. Painter+Llawan+ Blasts seems like an excellent way of kicking ass postboard. So -3 SNT, -3 Emmy, +3 Llawan + 3 Flex.

    Don't forget that with Painter on the board, when your opponent SNT an Emmy into play, you can drop your LLawan into play too. PAWNED! This plan just seems like a much better postboard choice. The fact that Llawan alone pawns merfolk is awesome. Playing Llawan with Painter gives you an alternate combo so you don't die to Revoker/Needles. Seems good.

  8. #48
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    Re: [PRIMER] U/R Painter

    Quote Originally Posted by TheProfessor View Post
    In Eldrazi/NO show matchups game 1, I would strategicaly give them the win and try to win quick G2 and G3's with GY hate SB. Especially in particular areas where time limits are strictly followed. I need to watch pros fight decks like this to get a better feel, as usually G1 has the lowest win% so if i think he has the advantage i'll scoop before revealing more of my deck to him.
    Just want to point out that graveyard hate is not enough to beat NO Show if they have 2 Progenitus in their deck. You won't have the opportunity to use Crypt in response to Emrakul triggers because the 2 Progenitus will throw the game in an infinite loop and it will be a draw. In order to make this work, you would need to assemble Painter + Grindstone + Crypt, be at 11+ life, and let your opponent resolve Natural Order for Progenitus. They will mill their entire deck except for one Progenitus, giving them one turn to attack before decking (assuming they don't have a way to discard).

  9. #49

    Re: [PRIMER] U/R Painter

    I'm thinking about trying out this deck at the GP.
    A few questions for you guys:
    Do you think Misstep will hurt this deck at all?
    How do you beat Chalice for 1?
    Are the win percentages as good as they were in the Starcity events? In other words, have people on this forum been having high success with this deck in other tournaments?

  10. #50
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    Re: [PRIMER] U/R Painter

    Chalice is rough, especially on T1. The only out is probably Force. Postboard, some bounce might help. Or you can just go painter +llawan/ Show And Tell plan. It's nice to have alternative plans postboard. We shouldn't fool ourselves into thinking that just because we can run misstep, it doesn't hurt us. Misstep does hurt us! And when Merfolk has + 4 cards against us, we are going to have problems for sure.

  11. #51
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    Re: [PRIMER] U/R Painter

    @keys -- Oh yes I realize and know that as well regarding the loop thing. However in most variants of NO Show should only have 1 Progenitals. But yes that would be the best way to defeat the progenitus problem.

    Which was one of the reason why I MB'd Wurmcoils in my meta, it was because we a few NO Shows pop up and I was forced to race against him. He beats me.. I beat him etc. Usually ended in my favor :D

    @Patrunkenphat7 -- That is actually hard. Ivanpei actually describes one of the best ways of handling that. Knowing your meta is part of the solution. On my SB I had hurkyls recall and echoing truths available to me just incase of chalice. But again.. you cant prepare for everything.

    Statistics are decieving, in the Starcity event you will notice that there were very FEW painter decks that played. The main reason for success was because it was a UNKNOWN variety. If decks actually prepared for Painter/G-stone it would make it very hard to win.

    @ivanpei -- Actually thats an interesting SB option :D Wonderful idea... when i playtest i'll try that out. Have you tried out the deck in your meta?

    RE: Misstep...
    well... personally i know this card will affect the entire legacy meta alot. Imagine decks without blue having access to a counter? Crazy.. but thats what makes it nice :D I guess we'll probably insert this in the MD and probably see. Again its all about the skill of the player, this just add another variable right? :D

  12. #52

    Re: [PRIMER] U/R Painter

    Hello again,
    I am going to start playtesting this deck soon for a possible GP deck (which is obviously after the new set comes out). I was wondering what people think about this list, as I have no experience with this deck yet. I am still not sure how good Misstep will be in this deck, but it seems good at stopping other Missteps as well as other obnoxious disruption. Is 3 the right number? I really have no idea.

    Artifacts
    4 Grindstone
    1 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Sensei's Divining Top

    Artifact Creatures
    4 Painter's Servant

    Creatures
    4 Goblin Welder

    Instants
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Force of Will
    4 Intuition
    4 Mental Misstep
    1 Pyroblast
    1 Red Elemental Blast

    Sorceries
    1 Transmute Artifact

    Legendary Artifacts
    3 Mox Opal

    Artifact Lands
    3 Great Furnace
    4 Seat of the Synod

    Basic Lands
    1 Island

    Lands
    3 Ancient Tomb
    2 City of Traitors
    2 Misty Rainforest
    2 Polluted Delta
    1 Scalding Tarn
    3 Volcanic Island

    Sideboard:
    2 Shattering Spree
    4 Tormod's Crypt
    2 Pyroblast
    2 Red Elemental Blast
    3 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
    2 Misdirection
    Last edited by Patrunkenphat7; 04-30-2011 at 03:46 AM.

  13. #53
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    Re: [PRIMER] U/R Painter

    Quote Originally Posted by TheProfessor View Post
    Have you tried out the deck in your meta?

    RE: Misstep...
    well... personally i know this card will affect the entire legacy meta alot. Imagine decks without blue having access to a counter? Crazy.. but thats what makes it nice :D I guess we'll probably insert this in the MD and probably see. Again its all about the skill of the player, this just add another variable right? :D
    I'm unsure what number of missteps is right, but we HAVE to play it. I'm also of the opinion that we should drop some LEDs if we run Missteps. Reason being that REB/Misstep/Force are pretty bad with LED. The deck can win perfectly without LED, so maybe -2 LED, - 2 Trinket, + 4 Missteps. LEDs give you plenty of speed so you can beat aggro handily but with a disruption heavy hand, you can Misstep their T1 Vial, Lackey, Necatl etc etc, slowing them down somewhat.

    I'm not sure if just playing 1 LED is the right call as you need to power Opal/Welder but the format is going to revolve around mistepping misteps and we cannot afford not to run a full set of Missteps.

  14. #54

    Re: [PRIMER] U/R Painter

    There needs to be at least 1 LED so you can intuition for LED/Painter/Stone with welder in play and just win.

  15. #55
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    Re: [PRIMER] U/R Painter

    Yup, we must have at least 1, I'm just unsure if we should run 1,2 or 3. I currently run 3 because I love the speed, but with Missteps, I think we can drop to just 1 copy. So -2 Trinkets, -2 LED, + 4 Misstep. Done.

  16. #56

    Re: [PRIMER] U/R Painter

    @Patrunkenphat7 - you can't beat Chalice on 1 without force or welder in play while not playing the TA =), in older versions it was usually solved by trinket mage -> EE, this deck has none... btw. with the whole misstep thing be ready some people revive their chalice aggro decks and weird new Mud aggro will follow

    Have anyone of you EVER tried dropping some lands? hello everyone, does anyone realize it's the only combo deck with so many lands aroud.. I play 20 - its completely ok and horraay you got 1-2 slots for your missteps...

  17. #57
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    Re: [PRIMER] U/R Painter

    Quote Originally Posted by Sloshthedark View Post
    [B]Have anyone of you EVER tried dropping some lands? hello everyone, does anyone realize it's the only combo deck with so many lands aroud.. I play 20 - its completely ok and horraay you got 1-2 slots for your missteps...
    That is an option I guess. I would probably take out a fetch/Volcanic and an LED. You never want to see more than 1 LED a game, and even then it's not necessary. I wouldn't cut any Opals, however, that card is one of my favorites.

    Has anyone tried out Transmute Artifact yet? It's been pretty nutty for me. It's like a Green Sun's Zenith for artifacts! They have to counter the Transmute or you're home free, AND it beats Chalice @ 1. Or you can use it like an entomb with Welder in play and not pay the mana cost. It also has the side effect of powering up Welder if, say, you've got double Top and no artifacts in your grave. I've never had trouble paying UU, and there is always a redundant artifact or artifact land to sacrifice. You guys should give it a try.

    I might get a chance to test out the Wurmcoil SB plan at a tourney this weekend as well. We'll see.

  18. #58
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    Re: [PRIMER] U/R Painter

    Quote Originally Posted by keys View Post
    Has anyone tried out Transmute Artifact yet? It's been pretty nuts for me. It's like a Demonic Tutor, except better because it puts the card directly on the battlefield! This means they have to counter the Transmute or you're home free. It also has the side effect of powering up Welder if, say, you've got double Top. I've never had trouble paying UU, and there is always a redundant artifact to sacrifice. You guys should give it a try.

    I might get a chance to test out the Wurmcoil SB plan this weekend as well. We'll see.

    I've been running a Transmute Artifact-based list for the last 5-6 months and I think it's insane. The card is freaking Tinker for crying out loud, and makes the deck function incredibly well. I personally think it's better than Intuition as it not only puts the card into play, but also doesn't require Welder and can also put multiple win conditions into play and doesn't require multiple pieces (namely Wurmcoil Engine). The UU can be difficult on occasion, but if the deck is built properly then it should function fine.

    My personal list abuses Transmute Artifact to the max, and offers more flexibility than any Painter list I've seen. It really opens you up to a lot more options and I think it's the direction the deck wants to go. Here's the list (just note this hasn't been updated post-NPH, so Mental Misstep hasn't been thrown into the mix yet)

    4 Goblin Welder
    1 Trinket Mage

    3 Painter's Servant
    3 Grindstone
    1 Thopter Foundry
    1 Sword of the Meek
    1 Wurmcoil Engine
    1 Ensnaring Bridge
    1 Pithing Needle
    2 Sensei's Divining Top
    3 Mox Opal
    3 Grim Monolith
    1 Lion's Eye Diamond

    4 Transmute Artifact
    4 Brainstorm
    2 Thirst for Knowledge
    1 Intuition
    4 Force of Will

    4 Seat of the Synod
    3 Great Furnace
    3 Ancient Tomb
    4 Scalding Tarn
    1 Polluted Delta
    3 Volcanic Island
    1 Tundra
    1 Island

    Sideboard:
    4 Red Elemental Blast
    2 Pithing Needle
    1 Tormod's Crypt
    1 Nihil Spellbomb
    1 Meekstone
    2 Ethersworn Cannonist
    2 Mindbreak Trap
    2 Seal of Cleansing



    As you can see this list has some serious differences between it and a traditional U/R Painter build, but they're there mainly because of this being based on Transmute Artifact. I'll go over the differences/slots below:

    Transmute Artifact v. Intuition: I still run Intuition as a 1of, sometimes as a 2of over the Trinket Mage, but I cut down on them in favor of TA because I feel Transmute has a far more powerful effect in this deck. Intuition is heavily reliant on having a Goblin Welder in play to get full use out of it, otherwise it's a tutor that dumps all the rest of a combo piece into the yard, which sucks if the card you tutor for gets countered. Transmute's drawback is minimal given the number of artifacts, and is insane when dumping Grim Monoliths. The fact that it puts the card directly into play is huge as well, as it allows you to combo quicker. At the worst it Entombs something so you could Welder it into play, which does allow you to run something like Sundering Titan if you choose to. Transmute also allows you to run a minor toolbox for dire situations, which is important in certain matchups. Intuition is still good in the deck, but I feel using TA is a better option.

    3 Painter/Grindstone: Given we have 4 Tinker and don't have as much reliance on Intuition, we don't need to run full sets of these. This frees up slots for additional needs, fair and simple.

    Thopter/Sword: I added this combo to give the deck versatility, not to mention it's downright insane. Traditional Painter lists can't win through Emrakul game 1, and Zoo is a pain in the ass for them. ThopterSword bypasses this, and also is great against other aggro decks or decks that can remove Painter easily. It's incredibly easy to assemble and gives the deck an entirely new dimension.

    Wurmcoil Engine: I initially had this in the sideboard as an out to Null Rod and aggro matchups, but I found myself boarding it in almost every match so I just added it to the maindeck. Wurmcoil is flat out insane. It allows you to use Transmute by itself without other combo pieces, completely stops aggro in its tracks, is bonkers with Goblin Welder, provides the deck with a means of winning through crap like Null Rod, and it also good at getting around stuff like Pernicious Deed. It's by far one of the most underrated cards in the deck.

    Ensnaring Bridge: Half the format is cold to the card, and you can tutor it up with ease. One of the best control cards in the format.

    Pithing Needle: Decent as a bullet in the maindeck, and additional copies in the board to handle whatever crap is out there.

    Sensei's Divining Top: I only run 2, most builds run more, I ended up cutting my extra copies in favor of other blue cards to help support Force of Will while still maintaining a good draw spell count.

    Mox Opal: Obvious.

    Grim Monolith: Monolith is one of the better reasons to run Transmute Artifact in the first place. It's incredible acceleration for the Painter combo and is ridiculous when sacrificed to TA. Plus, leading off with it off an Ancient Tomb can be utterly ridiculous.

    Lion's Eye Diamond: I only run this as a 1of because this build plays differently than normal lists, and instead tries to utilize Monolith for mana instead. However, it's incredibly good as a Trinket Mage and Transmute target to open up fast kills, and is also randomly good at dumping your hand for Bridge or to get Welder going.

    Brainstorm: Obvious.

    Goblin Welder: Obvious.

    Trinket Mage: I cut this guy down to 1 because most of the time he just sucks. He's 3 mana and is limited what he finds, so a lot of the time Intuition is better. However, I keep a 1/1 Intuition/Trinket Mage split because of the number of bullets that come out of the sideboard.

    Thirst for Knowledge: I wound up cutting the 3-4 SDT for these because I found too many instances where I'd need to fill my hand back up because the deck gets in topdeck mode far too easily. This is the best draw spell behind Brainstorm for the deck and opens up busted plays. These could very well be Intuitions, but I prefer to have the ability to keep card advantage up to maximize my options.

    Force of Will: obvious.


    Manabase:

    Ancient Tomb: Due to the heavy color needs of the deck I trimmed these down to 3. They're awesome in the deck but having 4+ opens too many times where I'm waiting for a 2nd blue source and sitting with Tombs and Great Furnaces. I still find 3 is good enough to have them enough to make a difference though.

    7 Artifact lands: Obvious. Ancient Den is worse than the 3rd Great Furnace because you can't cast Welder off it, and if you could search up Den to cast something white you could just as easily search Mox Opal instead.

    5 fetchlands: Obvious.

    4 Duals, 1 Island: The Volcs are obvious, the Tundra helps cast Thopter Foundry and some sb stuff, Island is to dodge Wastelands.




    I could go through the board too, but that's likely changing now thanks to NPH, so we can ignore that part.


    Otherwise, I encourage people to start giving Transmute Artifact a try. It just opens the deck up so much more design-wise and play-wise, and is just broken as hell.
    Last edited by Di; 04-28-2011 at 06:27 PM.

  19. #59
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    Re: [PRIMER] U/R Painter

    I like some of the ideas, but I think you give up a lot of speed and consistency by running only 3/3 Painter/Stone and adding so many alternate win cons to the maindeck. Thopter Sword really seems like a SB plan to me, if anything.

    But I agree with you about Transmute Artifact being better than Intuition sometimes. If I stick with the Wurmcoil sideboard, I'll probably cut one.

  20. #60
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    Re: [PRIMER] U/R Painter

    @ DI -- I LIKE!!! waw if you can test this further and get me results of your tourneys I can write a primer on this :D haha My only comment is that stretching into a 3rd color is kinda not the best way to go especially in an environment that can punish you for that. However that is only my opinion :D

    Do you have any testing results? Vs particular decks. Usual turn kill?

    Love the flexibility by the way :D

    @keys-- I'm with you on the Thopter/sword... seems a tad conditional. I wonder who can test this? I'm gonna get myself some transmutes from e-bay hehe :D I think we gotta use the synergy painter has REB and PYRO's? Do you think this list can support that (lets say we remove ... Thirst,thopter, sword,.. and ??)


    @Sloshthedark -- Hm... duno about dropping lands? I mean did dropping lands help? Anybody try this? (drop 1-2 lands for something else?)

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