What does Damping Sphere provide the deck with that it can't already get with other cards? Not that I can't see it being useful, but genuinely interested in where people see it as having the most application.Originally Posted by Hisa
Damping Sphere is artifact based hate for Storm. It is targeted hate which synergies with the deck for a relatively common bad matchup.
Don't Sphere of Resistance and Thorn of Amethyst already do this job? The trade-off being that Thorn taxes some of our spells but Damping Sphere makes our sol lands worse. That said, in builds like yours with only one Tomb I can see how Damping Sphere is an upgrade.
The other big benefit of damping sphere is against post and other big Mana decks. This card is also descent against any deck playing a bunch of cantrips and it has some play against omniscience.
(PS. Stupid auto correct)
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Last edited by drude1; 03-13-2018 at 02:48 PM.
Anyone else still playing/working on this deck?
Sadly, I think I am giving up on Smuggler's copter. It combo's really well with Tezzeret, but we otherwise run pretty few creatures and I've been finding it really hard to consistently crew. I just ended up swapping those out for a couple ponders and the deck feels a lot smoother. This is where I am currently at with the deck:
// Lands
1 [MR] Great Furnace
1 [UNH] Island
1 [B] Volcanic Island
1 [UNH] Swamp
1 [B] Underground Sea
3 [MR] Seat of the Synod
1 [B] Badlands
3 [KTK] Polluted Delta
2 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [UNH] Mountain
1 [KLD] Inventors' Fair
1 [KTK] Bloodstained Mire
2 [TE] Ancient Tomb
// Creatures
4 [SHM] Painter's Servant
3 [UL] Goblin Welder
3 [C16] Baleful Strix
// Spells
4 [TE] Grindstone
3 [IA] Pyroblast
2 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
3 [SOM] Mox Opal
4 [C15] Brainstorm
2 [MBS] Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [AQ] Transmute Artifact
1 [CN2] Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast
1 [MR] Pyrite Spellbomb
2 [XLN] Search for Azcanta/Azcanta, the Sunken Ruin
1 [SOM] Ratchet Bomb
2 [M10] Ponder
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [CH] Blood Moon
SB: 1 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 [AL] Helm of Obedience
SB: 1 [C15] Fiery Confluence
SB: 1 [US] Arcane Laboratory
SB: 1 [ARB] Sphinx of the Steel Wind
SB: 1 [TE] Cursed Scroll
SB: 1 [EMA] Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 [XLN] Sorcerous Spyglass
Once damping sphere becomes legal I will probably play one of those main, moving the ratchet bomb to the board and probably cutting the ancient tombs for another island and maybe try out an Academy Ruins.
Speaking of damping sphere, I think that is definitely a maindeck-able card. Here is a short list of the decks it screws over...
storm, belcher (if you can get it out on time), manaless dredge, elves (big time), eldrazi, 12 post, MUD, Aluren, any omniscience deck, any other deck that wants to play more than 2 spells in a turn. I play a one-of canonist in R/W painter and it is always good. This card functions similarly, albeit maybe not quite as good against Miracles, but better against any big mana decks. Really looking forward to this card.
Last edited by drude1; 03-23-2018 at 08:27 PM.
I played a similar list to yours (no Copters) over the weekend in a league, unfortunately finishing 2-3. I found that the deck does powerful things, but that the mana is just atrocious. Baleful Strix was often left stranded in my hand, reaching double blue was awkward, and I don't think I ever managed to cast Daretti. There is also a fundamental, difficult-to-reconcile tension between Mox Opal and Brainstorm. Mox Opal wants you to play artifact lands to turn it on and enables and encourages you to play out your (proactive) cards quickly. Brainstorm, on the other hand, wants you to play lots of fetches (I don't think five is enough, really) and wants you to keep (reactive) cards in hand.
Academy Ruins is a card I like a lot, but I think I would find it difficult to justify given the already shaky manabase of the deck. Inventor's Fair is similarly poorly positioned. I think the best colourless lands for the deck are Ancient Tomb just because of the boost in speed.
I think Damping Sphere warrants testing in the maindeck, and the comparison to Canonist is an interesting one. That said, Canonist is tutorable by Recruiter and much better against decks that just want to cast two spells a turn, because paying three mana for two one-mana spells isn't actually that inconvenient.
I would be very wary of cutting Ratchet Bomb from the main deck. Doing so leaves you with only one (pretty questionable) answer to Chalice in form of Daretti.
The first part of a three-part article series I've written about Painter, specifically my Mono-Blue list featuring Chalice of the Void, has just gone up on The Library at Pendrell Vale. It's a short history of (recent) Painter decks and talks about why I designed the deck to include Chalice in first place. I'd love to hear people's thoughts and hope I haven't made too many egregious mistakes in the history section. Check it out below if you're interested!
https://thelibraryatpendrellvale.com...dern-painting/
Parts 2 and 3 will be out over the course of the week, which go much deeper into the card choices in the deck and the sideboard. Stay tuned!
Just want to make sure you see the two transmute artifact in the deck. That answers a lot of your scenarios. For example, you say I only have one answer to chalice in the main but I actually have 3 (without ratchet bomb). For the same reason, I essentially will have 3 copies of damping sphere (2 "tutors") so the comparison to canonist is very applicable. Canonist is better against certain decks (eg. has a little more application against control decks) but damping sphere is better against a bunch of decks that are generally really bad match-ups for us, notably Eldrazi ramp. And it's still just as good against elves, omniscience, storm. I think your comments about brainstorm are primarily related to play-style. I am using brainstorm and ponder to find combo pieces, silver bullets and lands I need (by the way, there are 6 fetches). I'm typically not using it to find "reactionary" cards. Really, other than the blasts and force, there aren't many reactionary cards in the deck. I've really been having good luck with the deck, running at about a 70-75% win rate over the last several weeks. I keep making tweaks (just cut a search for azcanta for a third tezz). I do really like the ancient tombs but obviously they become less good with sphere. We'll see how that goes.
I did play the whir deck on Monday night. However, I actually played a version splashing black for tezz and the thopter/sword combo. Went 3-1, beating lands, burn and miracles and lost to elves. As I mentioned in the other thread, I beat lands game one just because I had a crap ton of basics and turn 2 I combo'd quickly with leyline/helm. Just got super lucky against burn as I combo'd on turn 3 in game 2 and dropped 3sphere turn 2 of game 3 and he never saw a third land. Overall it's probably a better MU for whir than other versions specifically due to chalice, but I never saw one. I did see chalice every game against elves but he just played around it. He choked me game 3 at an opportune time and I just got blown out from there. Whir is good against miracles and he just got beat down by thopters both games even after multiple terminus.
It's a pretty fun deck but does feel quite a bit slower than other versions. It also has some really bad draws as well, as the curve is a little high. I think I would probably play a couple mox diamonds in the list to add speed and turn redundant sol lands into something more useful. I do like playing chalice as it feels a little like blood moon in that it just doesn't let your opponent play magic sometimes. Whir is also a hell of a card as long as you have the mana for it.
Im doing good with this list link
not the usual build, painterstone is more of a late game finisher, but its working for me, sadly, elves seems a nightmare.
Im thinking about going for a w splash for plows, etutor and some lock pieces tho.
"You either die a Onesto-Player, or live long enough to see yourself become a Dredger"
Can you tell us your feedback?
I saw this list and it's the first recent list with this build.
Well, firstly the deck plays like a control, the combo is absolutely secondary.
The deck is basicly a control with some really nutty plays, we have a good edge against most combo and pretty much a bye against control.
We need a really solid play to overcome delver, id suggest to try some Harvest Pyre or even Roast in order to deal with pesky anglers and goyfs, meekstone helped me a lot during that specific tournament, I was able to beat a tombstalker team america thanks to them.
In general, the deck feels pretty decent against anything playing creatures we can bolt, and struggles to beat heavy threats (still, eldrazi ramp is an absolute bye for us).
In the near future ill test thw W list, plow should help immensly.
"You either die a Onesto-Player, or live long enough to see yourself become a Dredger"
Your list looks sweet, I have something like that "brewed" up and only got a few matches in. How have the cliques been? That card looks kind of clunky on paper. I can't imagine that any of the combo matchups are that good since you're giving up the ability to race them in favor of more grindy elements. Also the deck lost the ability to play the countertop combo, which doesn't help out when it comes to combo.
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Ponder
3 Volcanic Island
1 Academy Ruins
4 Polluted Delta
3 Pyroblast
1 Trinket Mage
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Mountain
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Spell Pierce
3 Painter's Servant
3 Island
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Imperial Recruiter
2 Grim Lavamancer
1 Grindstone
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Search for Azcanta
1 Great Furnace
2 Arid Mesa
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Blood Moon
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
3 Flusterstorm
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Meekstone
Generally speaking, combo is decent, its kinda hard for them to overcome the barrage of counters, and clique is super important because we are likely to win those games by racing with a snap/vendilion.Your list looks sweet, I have something like that "brewed" up and only got a few matches in. How have the cliques been? That card looks kind of clunky on paper. I can't imagine that any of the combo matchups are that good since you're giving up the ability to race them in favor of more grindy elements. Also the deck lost the ability to play the countertop combo
list
In your list there are a few things I know for a fact that wont work considering my tests.
1 Trinket : its too weak, really, despite it being a natural fit in the deck there is no way we can afford to tap 3 sorcery for a 2/2
2 jace : Imho jace is currently kinda weak, we have an hard time making sure the board is good enough to cast him, and the amount of reb effect is super high, also pyromancer is gives jace an hard time, i am playing 1 and considering 0, but he still is game if landed correctly, 1 copy is the correct amount imho, id rather play some other planeswalker than multiple copies of jace, dack is doing wonders for me atm
2 recruiter : same as Trinket, hella bad w/o sol lands
1 grindstone : is not enought, because we cant afford to be forced to go for academy if it gets countered/discarded, playing the second copy makes the deck work much smoother, also searching for grind w azcanta becomes much easier, that's the reason why im playing 2, even if the card is often not that good, we have enought manipolation to get rid of it, also it doubles our chances to go off naturally, which is not that bad
"You either die a Onesto-Player, or live long enough to see yourself become a Dredger"
Your list looks sweet, I have something like that "brewed" up and only got a few matches in. How have the cliques been? That card looks kind of clunky on paper. I can't imagine that any of the combo matchups are that good since you're giving up the ability to race them in favor of more grindy elements. Also the deck lost the ability to play the countertop combo
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Ponder
3 Volcanic Island
1 Academy Ruins
4 Polluted Delta
3 Pyroblast
1 Trinket Mage
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Mountain
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Spell Pierce
3 Painter's Servant
3 Island
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Imperial Recruiter
2 Grim Lavamancer
1 Grindstone
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Search for Azcanta
1 Great Furnace
2 Arid Mesa
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Blood Moon
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
3 Flusterstorm
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Meekstone
So I think that the removal of Welder, artifact lands, the full set of Grindstones, etc. makes this is a fundamentally different deck than the one we've been discussing. I don't think that that's bad, necessarily. This list is much more of a classic UR Control list, with REBs and Painter to cheat. I was playing something not super far from this in 2010 (JFC I'm old), and I really think its begging for a set of Lavabros.
I've been away from the game for a few weeks because of work and life and stuff, but I am almost certainly gonna give a list like this a couple of tries in the next week or so.
Although I'm not super interested in this list specifically I will get behind a list that plays 4 brainstorm and 4 ponder. I was just listening to a podcast that made a good argument explaining why you don't short yourself on those cards. It seems that if you are playing blue, there is no reason to not play for that consistency. I would also say that if your plan is to play more of a control/grindy game then I would also definitely play more search for azcanta, as that card just takes over games when going long. It also help you to get through the deck to find a grindstone if you aren't going to play 4.
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Yeah, you're right that Transmute Artifact gives you a few extra outs to things. Still, Transmute is pretty slow and card disadvantage as opposed to card advantage like Recruiter, so using it to find cards that aren't combo pieces comes at a higher price. What makes Eldrazi ramp a bad matchup in your experience? I've found that Painter slows them down significantly and you can lock them out with bridge. I disagree that Damping Sphere is as good against Elves and Omniscience as Canonist. It's still considerably worse because Elves can generate enough large amounts of mana in order to be able to pay the tax on at least one or two spells, meaning that it slows them down but doesn't stop their shenanigans entirely. Omniscience means they have extra mana lying around and can plausibly cast an answer to the sphere on the same turn as they have cast omniscience. It's pretty similar against Storm, yes, but still weaker as they can cast a discard spell and a cantrip in the same turn, for example.
Good to hear you had some success with a whir version. I've built it as a blue-black deck splashing for tezz and thopter-sword, too, but I didn't find that it added that much. Tezz AoB is pretty awkward with a chalice on one in that deck because he can't find half of your combo. Thopter-sword is strong but again very slow—against decks like miracles it seems pretty great. Choke is definitely a blow-out, and possibly something worth trying to find an answer for.
I'm not sure how much slower it is than the other decks. You still have a lot of fast mana and can combo on turn 2 or 3, but only running a couple of copies of Grindstone lowers your chances of drawing the combo naturally. I used to play Mox Diamonds but found them pretty clunky in hands with only one or two lands. The deck needs a fair few mana sources, and Mox Diamond doesn't actually up the number of sources in the deck in practice.
Since writing the articles I've been testing a couple of Chrome Mox which does double duty as ramp and as another blue source which is important for whir.
Maindeck
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Grindstone
2 Chrome Mox
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Painter's Servant
4 Trinket Mage
1 Spellskite
4 Force of Will
4 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Whir of Invention
1 Transmute Artifact
2 Search for Azcanta
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
13 Island
4 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors
1 Academy Ruins
1 Seat of the Synod
Sideboard
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Back to Basics
2 Echoing Truth
2 Flusterstorm
2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Padeem, Consul of Innovation
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Walking Ballista
That's the list I played last night at the legacy weekly, going 3-1 against Mono-Red Sneak, Elves, Esper Mentor and 4c Loam, with the loss coming against Esper Mentor. Didn't drop a game against the other three decks.
If anyone's interested, all three parts of my series are now up.
As mentioned earlier in the thread, the first part is a history of the recent developments in the Painter archetype since the Sensei's Divining Top ban. I go into my reasons for eschewing the traditional shells for Painter, namely Imperial Painter/Strawberry Shortcake and Painted Stone, and my thinking behind including Chalice.
In the second part, there's an in-depth discussion of the cards in the main deck and how to get the best use out of them. There are a lot of fun niche interactions with cards like Painter's Servant in Legacy—did you know, for example, that if you have a Chrome Mox imprinting a blue card, and you name red with Painter's Servant you can tap your Chrome Mox for red mana as well?
Part three talks about a number of sideboard options for the deck as well as possible cards to play in the main deck. It's not a sideboard guide per se, but that is something I'm working on as well so stay tuned.
The problem I have with more controlling lists is that I think, if playing a brew, one should have a good reason for not playing an established deck—A+B combo decks need to justify being better than Sneak and Show, control needs to justify being better than Miracles, and so on. Of course, playing Painter is sweet and reason enough in itself in terms of having fun, but as far as actual deckbuilding goes I think it's worth evaluating what you gain and what you lose by trying to build, say, a more controlling version of Painter.
That said, Search for Azcanta is definitely a sweet card and I think Noctalor's list could use it to good effect.
Actually I think I was wrong, with the way exile now works. I am sorry.
Seth
…no matter how much you think you love somebody, you’ll step back when the pool of their blood edges up too close.
Yes, transmute is definitely a little durdley but it is mostly finding you combo pieces or ensnaring bridge to keep you in the game or helm for alternate win, etc. With a welder in play the transmute is much much better. As for damping sphere, it's good against omniscience because it will at least likely give you a turn and they will have a hard time winning with release the ants so bridge is better. Against elves it is quite good because it will limit them from just unloading all their Guys early and it shuts off cradle so they don't have all the Mana.
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Yeah, with a Welder Transmute gets a lot better. I'd just hesitate to call it extra copies of a card like Damping Sphere because the effect isn't game winning against most decks and you'd probably be better off trying to do something proactive.
I think the card is a reasonable option, but I would be cautious of overvaluing it against a deck like Elves. Yes, it shuts off cradle, which is strong, but overall they still have Heritage Druid to make a fair bit of mana. Playing two or three guys each turn across several turns is very feasible, which is relevant in terms of the comparison to Ethersworn Canonist. It's better than a card like Sphere against Elves, but you wouldn't bring in Sphere for the matchup.
Don't get me wrong, canonist is leaps and bounds above sphere in general. But we aren't playing white. I was playing canonist main in shortcake for a long time, mostly for the storm match up. In game one in particular it just won the game. I really like playing those tool box sort of answers and we don't have that kind of card right now. Against storm sphere functions similarly while also being pretty good in your hand against decks like elves and various big Mana decks. Btw, If you haven't played against eldrazi ramp before the match up is atrocious. You can't combo them due to eldrazi shufflers and they eventually just draw ulamog and blow up your prison pieces and just win. This card would maybe slow them down enough for us to get our plan together. And true, I would never use transmute to go get this card but I wouldn't hate seeing it either.
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To be fair, I came up with my list not by tuning painter but by looking for a decent control to play.
I have played miracle and had success with it, but in my opinion the deck is hella overrated atm, the lack of a decent finisher and in general the lack of real action makes it pretty poor.
I agree on ponder and brainstorm, honestly, its pointless to argue about it, if you play blue and fetches there is no reason not to play the full set of both, at any given time in a game the card you want the most is likely to be a cantrip and in general, unless you are somewhat locked having cantrips is always good.
I think i am going to play painter at the next GP, still unsure about the list, id like to give a shot to the monoU whir list, what do you guys think about it?
"You either die a Onesto-Player, or live long enough to see yourself become a Dredger"
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