He's good, but the mana cost is a problem. Searching for a combo piece on turn 4-5 is a bit slow. His ultimate isn't a guaranteed win for the deck, either.Originally Posted by SMR0079
LED was only good for me in Intuition piles. Don't get me wrong though; it was very good. I just felt like LED provided faster wins with midgame Intuitions, and I didn't really need it to increase turn 2 wins. To answer the question, I would much have more turn 3 wins with increased protection than more turn 2 attempts. Misstep was an all-star all day, often better than FoW.
I found that Llawan is actually extremely good in the Bant matchup, which is what pushed him into my SB. They simply do not have enough resources to deal with it when they are also trying to battle Welder. I would not have top 8ed if I had not resolved Llawan against Bant. I knew Bant was going to perform well, and the fact that Llawan is quite good against Merfolk is very important. Although we are already good against them, I can't afford to win 2 out of 3 rounds against the most popular deck at a GP when I'm trying to top 8. Llawan helped push me over the edge in that matchup.
Also, I have never encountered a competitive deck that runs more than 1 Progenitus... I would also never expect to see something like that with 3 byes at a GP.
Transmute Artifact + Grim Monolith is cool, but that is a different deck than what I was going for. I would never play any less than 4 Intuition in a Welder Painter deck. I wanted my deck to have a consistent and streamlined combo with great protection. I don't think I could have ended 1st in the standings of Day 1 any other way. I think the idea of Transmute Artifact and Grim Monolith is great; it simply didn't suit this event in my opinion.
By the way, every single player who saw Transmute Artifact asked for the oracle text, including PV. I love the card!
Why do you run a 1-of TA over a 1-of Trinket Mage? You wind up down a card rather than up one.
@ Patrunkenphat7 -- Congratulations man :D Your an inspiration (lol) :D Thank you for sharing your tourney report. Good idea on the Llawan, I have been simulating that or ensnaring bridge for a while now. Both have good and bad experiences. Love your deck man and congrats again on the win :D So how did you prepare for the GP?
PS. love the deck. Executes like a dream on T4 and T5 consistently with protection ~70-75% of the time)
By the way when you boarded in the misdirections what did you usually board out?
@Sloshthedark -- LED is a must have in the deck :D By the way love your list it executes the combo faster and more consistent than other builds i've played. Have you ever had problems with protection? Usually i found that the deck kinda goes "all in" mode every T2 and T3? (usually no protection? lol)
Card Choices:
Transmute Artifact? -- its awesome :D Cast it if it resolves = artifact is in play already.
Trinket Mage? -- Its a nice toolbox :D Cast it if it resolves = Bear + key artifact in hand
Both have uses and both have significant drawbacks in my opinion? I do not think either is more superior than the other?
However certain situations do change that view :D Do we need to be faster? Do we need more control?
Congrats Patrunkenphat7, good to see the deck perform well at the GP, showing that it's a consistent deck that can get top performances. I've liked the Llawan in testing, but tell me about how Blood Moon fared for you? I've been testing Blood Moon a lot, and the only real matchup it helped against was Team America.
So what are people's thoughts on Spellskite?
NO Show and Sneak & Show are both popular decks. You also have no way to beat decks with Emrakul game 1 (outside of Welder/Painter beats). Considering that a deck with 3 Emrakuls placed 2nd at the GP... you will eventually find yourself in situations where an alternative win con is needed.
Trinket Mage rarely gets you anything other than Grindstone, Needle, or Crypt. Transmute also gets Painter, or more expensive silver bullets like Ensnaring Bridge. The card disadvantage is rarely an issue since the deck plays so many artifacts, there is often a dead or redundant permanent to sacrifice. Most of the time it just doesn't matter, since you win as soon as it resolves.
It's a good card against Burn, Zoo, (and Pump Infect, as I found out last tournament). It soaks up more bolts than Kira, and blocks Nacatls all day long, unlike Counterbalance. It is competing for spots with Misdirection, however, which is arguably better against Junk, Team America, and other Hymn based decks.
Spellskite, Magus/Moon, Llawan, and Misdirect are all competing for slots.
Also, we appear to be a DTB now. Wheee.
OMG... this primer is really here? T.T... i feel soooo happy...first I'd like to thank all the children of the world, kittens, and other furry creatures that we can devour.
Thank you for all the people who discussed their experiences with this deck in detail and for sharing their ideas. Believe me, your inputs no matter how odd/wierd/far flung they are. They are always welcome and appreciated.
Also on a personal note: I truly hope not many people play our deck :p I love the deck its "rogueness" is what kept it unique :D (its always nice to come up to a tourney being the lower 1% of the field) Can I still request this be returned to Developmental? :D haha As I feel this deck still has a long way to go and can still get WAY better in the comming future :D
I will do updates on the Primer again in another 2 weeks :D
Thank you to the following people (in no particular order):
Non Forum Guys!
Cerberus Team (Philippines) -- Chard thank you for loaning me the parts until i got my own lol
Joscar & Ernest (for testing my deck in tourneys and nice enough to give me tourney reports)
Forum Guys!
Ivanpei -- Great insights on land count and LED/mox opal ratios. (this guy is loaded...)
Sinteros -- Your questions are great man keep them comming.
PanderAlexander -- Your personal insights and experiences + helping me proof read the primer was great help (was wondering if my english skills were degrading).. Although the photos of the eroticon was actually the thing the kept me warm during those nights writing this primer....
Keys -- I think (maybe I'm wrong) that you were the first to suggest transmute artifact? Congrats :D
Sloshthedark -- Thank you for sharing and giving us inputs on your tourney experiences! (am i correct to assume that youre russian?)
Patrunkenphat7 -- Your GP report will and insights will be counted upon in this forum :D
Di? -- Thank you for sharing your Transmute artifact deck experiences!
EddieO -- Thank you for sharing your tourney experiences!
Caleb Durward (for his original deck idea) -- Well without you comming up with the deck design we wouldnt be here. I wonder if he ever reads or posts in these forums?
Did you guys notice that our deck's "parts/components" can be used in two other decks that do well?
Namely: Sneak/Show and Hivemind? lol
Q: What primer should i do next?
Congratulations to Patrunkenphat7, and condolences for the DTB - I really hope this deck would never become massively played
my intent of the design is to push both speed and protection to the deck limits according to my experience; currently I feel the list is nearly tuned to perfection for me - except the 61. card which is due to SB space but historically all my decks have played 61 cards so I can live with that
It's not like that, you just have to know when you can afford going off T2, T3 into untapped lands, usually you just lay down the combo and pass the turn
I also Do SB out some LEDs, but it's important for me to be able to race my opponent if necessary, or finish the game "from hand" in some match-ups
and no - I'm Czech, its quite a difference ; )
I'm interested in this as well.
Congrats on your finish!
Blood Moon is naturally good against Landstill and Lands, but it's also really good against Junk. Odds are they will not fetch around it unless they know it's coming, and unless they have a threat in play by turn 2-3 (which is generally unlikely as they normally start with disruption, unless of course they kept a bad hand) you can pretty much lock them out of the game.
It can also just punish any other deck with a greedy manabase. A handful of Bant lists are like that, as are other blue-based aggro-control decks. It's a great card to steal wins from decks like that.
I meant mostly what bad matchup it would help us against. Lands is almost a bye for us, we combo them out before they do anything relevant and we still easily fight through EE recursion and waste/loam. Team America is a harder matchup I've seem it help, was wondering what others. I've test a lot in junk and they'll grab basics and mox diamond. But it did help against wasteland for that matchup.
True; I was merely mentioning matchups it was good against.
However, neither Landstill or Junk are cakewalks. Any deck with access to Pernicious Deed can be an absolute nightmare, and shutting them off of not only that, but a good portion of their deck, is huge. Landstill essentially can't win through it unless they either have Jace in play or miraculously already have two basic Islands in play. I'll take that instead of trying to win through Deed, spot removal, and counters the hard way.
As for Junk, I think it's worth it despite the fact the matchup isn't overly unfavorable. They are going to walk into it a majority of the time, and even if they don't, it will severly limit them in what they're able to do. They have a whopping 3 basics in the deck, and maybe Mox Diamonds if they don't board them out. If they're fetching them early to get around Blood Moon, then their chances of getting early Hymns and such to connect aren't as high. It just puts them in a rough position that they generally will not be able to get out of in time for you to combo.
He brings up extremely valid points, but isn't it kind of hard to resolve against Landstill?
They really only have Daze/Fow for that. Odds are pretty good that if you play around Daze and are aggressive with MM, you'll stick it. Having Force backup is obviously pretty sweet, but I haven't had too much trouble resolving a quick Blood Moon against landstill.
Landstill's only outs to deal with it are either Force of Will, maybe Counterspell if they run it, or if they already have a Pernicious Deed on the table, and you have Force and ReB to protect it, so it shouldn't be difficult.
Hey guys,
Sorry I have been extremely busy today. I can say that Blood Moon was a metagame call at the GP, as I have found any BUG-colored deck to be extremely difficult game 1 (whether it be Team America or BUGstill), and those decks were everywhere. Blood Moon is better than the Painter combo against Team America and it turns an unfavorable matchup into favorable post-board. This is probably the matchup I tested the most before the GP, as I felt like I was bound to run into it quite a bit. Unfortunately I had a Blood Moon stranded in my hand against PV with 2 mana sources and a Top on board during game 2...
I will also note that I really like playing this deck a little slower with stronger protection in the post-MM format. We don't really need to go all in with turn 2 wins off LED; the additional protection is definitely worth it.
I've been meaning to try this deck outside of just testing (Never felt comfortable enough with it to play it in a tournament) and decided to try Wilson's list last weekend after seeing it as one of the Day 1 undefeated decks. I played the same main deck but modified the board for what usually shows up where I play:
2x Pyroblast
2x REB
3x Blood Moon
2x Misdirection
2x Divert
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Hibernation (Didn't even think about this with Painter naming Green until after the tournament. /fail)
Round 1 vs. U/R Storm
It was kinda like Belcher but without the Belchers. It mainly used EtW for the kill.
Game 1 was a quick kill with the combo. I had countered Gitaxian Probe with Mental Misstep since I didn't know what he was playing and didn't want him to know I had Force in hand.
Game 2 he makes Goblins as I'm assembling the combo. I get hit by them once and end up at 1 thanks to Ancient Tomb damage. He attempts to Bolt me, but REB with Painter out saves me and I combo him out.
1-0; 2-0
Round 2 vs. Elves
Game 1 was over after 3 turns.
Game 2 was over in 4. Didn't bother sideboarding.
2-0; 4-0
Round 3 vs. Junk
Game 1: His version was very removal heavy. He had Vindicate and Maelstrom Pulse main in addition to the usual StPs. I couldn't keep key pieces on the board.
Game 2: He had 2 Non-Basics and 2 BoPs for mana and hit me with Therapy blanking then flashing it back taking something key. I cast Hibernation (For 1 BoP....) on my turn to slow down his mana since I was having issues as well. I didn't draw the Blood Moon until after he had already recovered. I really think an early Blood Moon was the only way I was going to win this without a near perfect opening hand.
2-1; 4-2
Round 4 vs. Team America
Game 1: The deck decided to be nice to me again and I combo'd him out turn 4 or 5.
Game 2: He starts off by mulling to 4 and has some hand disruption. I take his hand with mine though thanks to him Forcing my Divert on his Hymn. We both end up play the draw-go game and I start attacking him with Welder since its not doing anything. He gets a Sylvan Library out but can't find any lands, even with drawing 3 cards a turn. Eventually I get 2 Welders out and Intuition at his EoT for Grindstone, Servant, LED. I try to weld out a Land for the Grindstone and he Stifles it (told him afterwards that was a mistake and he should have saved it for the Grindstone). I just use the other Welder to get it in. I take my turn and activate Grindstone then weld it out for Painter to kill him.
3-1; 6-2
Finished in 2nd overall with the Junk deck taking 1st.
The deck is a ton of fun to play, sadly I never got to use Transmute Artifact to see how much I liked it. I have some questions for those more familiar with it:
-Sideboarding: How do you decide what to take out? Force and Misstep are obvious when I can board them out, but after that I usually boarded out 1x Painter's Servant & 1x Grindstone since I didn't know what else to cut.
-Metagaming: Progenitus is fairly common here and I know for sure one person is going to be playing Hypergenesis. Should I get paired up with him, should I just attempt to make the match a draw due to the endless Progenitus loop or would it be worth it to add a single Tundra and Ethersworn Canonists to the board to stop Cascade? The plus side is this would also help against any other Combo decks.
Sideboarding:-Sideboarding: How do you decide what to take out? Force and Misstep are obvious when I can board them out, but after that I usually boarded out 1x Painter's Servant & 1x Grindstone since I didn't know what else to cut.
-Metagaming: Progenitus is fairly common here and I know for sure one person is going to be playing Hypergenesis. Should I get paired up with him, should I just attempt to make the match a draw due to the endless Progenitus loop or would it be worth it to add a single Tundra and Ethersworn Canonists to the board to stop Cascade? The plus side is this would also help against any other Combo decks.
I wouldn't ever cut Painter or Grindstone, unless the matchup was so abysmal that I was planning on using other routes to victory. However, that list doesn't have any win conditions outside that combo, so it's even more imperative you don't board those out.
Sideboarding can be difficult, but it really depends on the exact build of the deck, play/draw, match, what they can bring in, etc. Generally I end up cutting 2+ Force of Wills against anything not combo, but it's rare to board out Misstep. Other than those it's tough to say due to the variables I mentioned above, but things that are typically boarded out are Trinket Mage (if it's run), Pithing Needle (see above), maybe a land against something without Wastelands, LED/Grim Monolith, or maybe 1 Transmute Artifact or Intuition. Fortunately, that build of the deck shouldn't need to board many cards in at once, so sideboarding shouldn't be too difficult.
Metagaming:
Given decks with Progenitus/Emrakul aren't all that uncommon, most Painter builds run additional win conditions. A lot of decks have adopted an alternate win condition of Wurmcoil Engine, which is generally really good. I run Wurmcoil Engine in my own sideboard and maindeck the Thopter Foundry/Sword of the Meek combo. ThopterSword is probably responsible for 25% of my game wins as it's such a strong combo and difficult to disrupt against most decks in the format. If you're considering adding white for a single Ethersworn Cannonist in the board (which I do as well), then it's probably not as bad of an idea to try Thopter Foundry either. However, I run a full set of Transmute Artifacts, which make it much easier to find.
Speaking of which, this is the build I've run to consecutive 5-0's at my locals and would've run at GP Providence had I not had an airplane malfunction causing me to miss the GP.
4 Goblin Welder
3 Painter's Servant
3 Grindstone
1 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Mox Opal
3 Grim Monolith
4 Brainstorm
4 Transmute Artifact
2 Intuition/Trinket Mage (torn on this, I liked both, but adding Intuition also meant cutting the 21st land for an LED. The locals I've played in I ran Trinket Mage and it worked fine, but Intuition is still solid)
4 Force of Will
3 Mental Misstep
4 Seat of the Synod
3 Great Furnace
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
3 Volcanic Island
1 Tundra
2 Island
Sideboard:
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Blood Moon
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Spellskite
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
Given what the metagame turned out to be like, I was really liking the list. I added the 2nd Island to help cast Transmute under Blood Moon, and it's been solid against Wasteland decks anyway, so I like it. Otherwise my maindeck hasn't changed much since I first posted it, just added Misstep. I'm still teetering on Trinket Mage/Intuition. I like Intuition a lot because it's great tutoring power and it nuts with Welder, but if I ran it I'd be more inclined to go to 4 Painter+Stone, which I've reserved for the Thopter combo maindeck (and I'd prefer not to board it). I also like how Trinket Mage is a decent chump blocker and is fine for getting mana sources and Top against disruption-heavy decks. More testing will prove what ultimately happens here, I could end up cutting the 4th Transmute Artifact to squeeze in more space here too.
I didn't run as high of a blast count as normal in the board because I only ran 3 Painter due to both running 4 Transmute and running ThopterSword alternatively, and because I feel most of what I want to counter is not blue. That said, I ended up cutting the 4th and 5th blasts for Spellskites, which have proven to be insane. I was skeptical at first, but after running through a local playing against Zoo, Sligh, and Junk right in a row, I realized how nuts it is. I suggest everyone give it a second look, because it turns those matchups right around. I also really like Ancient Grudge right now. I had them in there for Null Rod hate, but given this deck is picking up, they could be great in the mirror. Plus, they're also nuts against Affinity, and solid against the Stoneforge decks in killing swords and Batterskull. Everything else is pretty self-explanitory.
Last edited by Di; 06-04-2011 at 07:33 PM.
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