Similar to mine, I like it ;)Originally Posted by TheoryCraft
Why do you guys dont play SFM anymore?
Currently playingEldrazi
It's generally considered to be one of the worst cards in the deck often and Thalia is a pretty good replacement
I think we're considering that the new Thalia is going to be excellent, and the cuttable slots are basically SFM and original Thalia. I basically wouldn't want to cut anything else. It does raise the curve a tiny bit, and I guess if you wanted, you could shave a Knight. I think a 3/3 split of the new and old Thalia seems just fine. All I want to do is drop Thalia HC and then Wasteland + Loam them into oblivion.
How often did you faced in testing moments when you have Thalia (old one) on table and calculating to cast Thalia (new one):
On play and on draw:
- In BUG matchup: conditions - turn 3, opponent doesn't have a thread on table,
- In Miracle matchup:conditions turn 3, opponent have SDT on table,
- In Eldrazi matchup: conditions - turn 3, Chalice resolved on opponent side,
- In Sneak & Show: conditions - turn 3,
- In Elves matchup: conditions - turn 3, he didnt glimpse,
- In Lands matchup: conditions - Exploration on table, loam in GY
- In Aggro Loam matchup: conditions - Liliana with 1 counter, turn 3 (your hierarch/shaman in gy).
- In Delver MU (grixs/rug doesn't matter) - turn 3, with a thread and without on table.
-EDIT, legend rule != plainwalker rule, you can have both Thalia on battlefield. So nvm.
Last edited by Fatal; 07-18-2016 at 08:47 AM.
Thalia seems insane against Eldrazi. Her plus old Thalia is 5 power of first strike against a deck that has no man generally bigger than that.
Got some playtesting in this weekend. Tried out GW and GWb variants.
-I missed having DRS in the straight GW build.
-Sylvan Safekeeper is a pretty nice card. Nice enough to consider it a main deck playable card. I will probably do a 3:1 split of Mother of Runes : Sylvan Safekeeper for the time being. Sylvan Safekeeper is great against Eldrazi and Jitte and has nice synergy with KotR (bombing a bunch of lands for lethal).
-I find the SFM package to still be pretty important. GW doesn't have much in the realm of CA other than SFM and Sylvan Library. I feel comfortable running 2-3 SFM and 2 Equipment main board along with 1-2 Sylvan Library.
-The new Thalia was pretty nice. In one game she directly lead to a win as my opponent could not curve into a Liliana thanks to a ETB-tapped fetchland. The following turn I bombed it with a Wasteland and they were never able to hit their 3 untapped land before I presented lethal.
-As of now a 3:3 split of old and new Thalia seems good. It's a feelsbad moment to clutter your hand with a bunch of Thalias, but as of now it hasn't been overly cumbersome on a consistent basis.
Because the mana curve of the deck is increasing with the inclusion of 3 more 3-drops, I intend to put in a 6th mana dork. I had been running a 4:1 DRS:Noble split but I intend to add in a 2nd Noble.
@Seraphix' Punishing Fire List (Starcitygames Open): I really like your list, it looks like a streamlined, straightforward Punishing Maverick list without too much cute things. Still I have some questions and I'm curious about your reasoning regarding some card choices.
- Playing no Sword of Fire and Ice. SoFaI seems like a good tool against the grindy MUs like Shardless, Miracles, etc. especially with the 3rd Stoneforge Mystic.
- Winter Orb, I get it why Delver wants to play one or two in the SB but I do not get why we want it in a deck like Maverick. What was your reasoning behind this and did the Winter Orb fulfil it's purpose?
- Lack of Maze of Ith. When I'm building Punishing Maverick Maze of Ith is a card I always wanted to squeeze into the deck because it helps to survive early onslaughts until you stabilize or for the tricks with Knight of the Reliquary. Punishing Maverick has just more to fetch with KotR than the usual Abzan Maverick version. Though I was slinging the Abzan version the last years I just may be wrong on this and Maze of Ith is not good enough anymore.
- Fiery Justice looks really good in this deck. You said you played it for personal reasons so do you think there is a more powerful choice as additional Removal out of the SB instead of Fiery Justice? (4th Punishing Fire, Path to Exile, Oblivion Ring, ...)
thanks, Fl0do :)
Formerly known as Bierbaron.
Thank you for your interest in the deck :)
1. Sophie is a great card and I often play a 2 SFM + Jitte + Sword configuration in this deck. As you note, Swords shine in the Miracles and Shardless matchups and are superior to Batterskull against those decks. My main motivation for switching to Batterskull for this event was Eldrazi, which I was expecting to see a lot of. I still don't have a lot of experience with the Eldrazi matchup, and while Batterskull is great against them I'm starting to think the matchup is good enough without it. I should also note that Swords are slightly worse in Punishing Maverick than in GWb due to the lower creature count.
2. Winter Orb is a card I honestly have no experience with but decided to try in the SB instead of Garruk Relentless. Winter Orb fulfills a role as an an anti-Miracles card like Garruk, but is also relevant against decks like Lands and Cloudpost, which I expected a lot of at the Open. I haven't cast this card yet so I still don't have a useful opinion on it.
3. I really like Maze of Ith, but its hard to squeeze into the same deck as Dark Depths outside of a dedicated Loam deck. Maze is less powerful than summoning Marit Lage but has the advantage of taking up only one slot. I don't play Maze much in any Maverick these days (prefer Cradle in GWb) but I tested it again before the event, primarily as an anti-Eldrazi measure. Testing quickly re-affirmed my belief that Dark Depths is generally superior in the deck.
4. While Fiery Justice is a pet card, I honestly believe it to be the best sweeper effect available to this deck in Naya colors. I like to have a sweeper in Maverick for decks like D&T, Elves, Merfolk and Goblins. Electrickery is too narrow and Sudden Demise/Pyroclasm hurt us too much. Fiery Justice has also been unexpectedly useful against Miracles as a reasonable answer to both Jace and Mentor.
If you don't mind, I will jump in on that point. I was also trying witer orb out in my sideboard in Worcester, and actually got to cast it, both times against miracles. My opinion on it is that it's not that good, as both times the miracle played already had control of the board. In the end, It did nothing to pull me back ahead, which is already the problem I had with armageddon.
Initially my thought process was that I wanted a card that didn't get stopped by teeg, that helped in more than just the miracles matchup and that could show up very early in the game. Aside from that, it also had the upside of limiting how much monastery mentor took over the game (which is also why I ended up cutting bitterblossom from my sideboard too, it's not good enough when they can wipe your board and land mentor after). That's how i ended up with 2 orbs in my sideboard, over choke and geddon.
Now, after testing, I would play armageddon over that card (bigger blowout, less likely the miracles/lands player can come back), and another garruck. Sword of war and peace was also really good out of the side.
(for reference, I finished 40th, lost my last round for certain top 32, and did not make it on breakers after that. I believe we were the only 2 maverick players on day 2, actually).
quick edit. Play safekeeper. that card is nuts. Really. it is.
Do miracles players generally board out Force against you guys? Counter spell? Counter balance? What counters do they usually keep in against this deck? I know in the past they took out force, but I could see it staying in if they are on the mentor plan
Also on the red version I'm trying out Boil like Lands. Brought it in against Shardless and Show and tell the other night. Probably wrong, but I didn't draw it and it seemed better than something like scooze/tireless tracker against show and tell at least
they board out all forces usually. they keep balance and counter spell. You have decays for mentor, and don't keep plows (or a lot of them) post-board.
So Seraphix got a nice mention in the mtggoldfish Legacy write up: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles...-control-decks. Punishing Maverick involves sending the deck to The Spice Corner!
miracles always side out balance vs decay decks, they dont usually side out forces
I 3-2 a league with 4 color loam and two 3-2's with punishing maverick. So I thought to myself to just play my gwb version because it's always consistent. Once again I 5-0 with it, so maybe Sunday at SCG Columbus ill play it but not sure, I do like the free wins I get with 4 color loam. Here is the deck for reference same list as this http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=99973 but a couple changes. Wanted to try out batterskull with eldrazi being popular, it was pretty good and played out like what death and taxes felt like when you play turn 1 mom into turn 2 stoneforge for bskull. I played vs 2 delver decks, death and taxes, Reanimator and miracles.
main +1 stoneforge +1 batterskull -1 light and shadow -1 garruk relentless
sideboard -1 banishing light +1 garruk relentless.
Tried this pile out tonight:
Creatures:21
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Mother of Runes
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Tireless Tracker
Spells:15
3 Mox Diamond
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Life from the Loam
1 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
Lands:24
2 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Tranquil Thicket
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath
Tied with Shardless, won the mirror, lost against U/R Delver.
Tracker was great. I liked the small Loam package. The Moxen were sometimes great and other times not so great. I'll be moving parts around to squeeze in the new Thalia. Stoneforge is the likely cut. A single Safekeeper might replace a Mom.
All in all it was a decent mix of both Maverick to which I'm new, and 4C Loam from where I was.
Just starting out with the deck, here's what I've been trying out:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Mother of Runes
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Bayou
1 Maze of Ith
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Thespian's Stage
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas
1 Dark Depths
1 Sylvan Library
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Qasali Pridemage
SB: 2 Zealous Persecution
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Armageddon
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Choke
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
I can't really offer much insight, but I've been having a lot of fun with the list so far, new Thalia seems very good (in creature matchups at least, haven't played against miracles or combo yet).
Dropping her turn 2 on the play vs Eldrazi is a beating!
I had a question about "swords of" for those of you more familiar with the deck.
I get how SoFI is great value, but if miracles is such a bad matchup, wouldn't one of the white swords be better? Could keep a teeg safe from STP for example (maybe that's just wishful thinking and raw value is just better, and we already have Mom).
Is it a case of SoFI in the main, white sword in the board to swap out for the matchup?
I think SOFI always in the main, and if you're playing 3 Equips, then you can play a white sword in the main as well. War and Peace/Light and Shadow both offer advantages and disadvantages.
I don't think we can count on Teeg being our horse in the Miracles matchup, but with Safekeeper and 4 Mother, he's well protected (and we're more well diversified in threats against Miracles). A possibility is also running 6 manadorks total, and siding into Winter Orbs and Armageddon, along with the new Thalia, could be an absolute beating. Thoughts?
-Matt
I really want to try out Thalia HC with Crackdown and Winter Orb in SBs. Not many of our threats are non-white and have 3+ power permanently.
Crackdown would also work with Thornscape Apprentice as GSZ-able tap enable. Probably too fancy, though.
Played new Thalia in my quarterly win a mox today. Unfortunately went 2-3. Beat Shardless, it wasn't close. Beat 4 color loam in a close one. Lost a close game to Lands. Lost an insanely close game to Shardless. Got beat by infect in 7 minutes to drop. It was a tough day, but Thalia's together were completely insane. Even new Thalia alone was really really good. Really interested in hearing how a junk list does. I definitely got to have an opponent cast brainstorm, put in a tapped fetch, and get rekt by a wasteland. And had a shardless player fire off 3 visions and I was still him brainstorming into a removal to push through the last point
Also definitely gonna try a couple winter orb in place of boils with her
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