I need everyone's help.
I'm designing an evaluation matrix for the most popular SB cards. This matrix is going to be big and I need lots of help. When this matrix is done, it will act as a general SB building-guide. The reason why I'm doing this is because a.) I'm bored, and b.) I want other Maverick players to be ready for GP Vegas for those battling, c.) For new Maverick players, this will help them build a SB for their respective home meta.
I'm going to state some assumptions:
1.) This Matrix is for GW/b builds (I don't have experiences in Punishing Maverick, however, if someone wants to create one for that build, they can use this model to help construct it).
2.) We are ignoring any and all MB list. The reason why is because the MB game plan has not changed since its inception, with the exception of Deathrite Shaman.
I"m going to list 8 decks that I want everyone to rank from most difficult to win to least difficult to win.
Grixis Delver
Show and Tell
Death and Taxes
Shardless Bug
Storm
BR Reanimator
Elves
Death/Stoneblade Variants
According to my matchup tracker over my last 56 games, this is the ranking for these decks.Originally Posted by Thunderknight
0-2 (Favorability -4) Elves
0-1 (Favorability -2) Show and Tell
1-1 (Favorability 0) BR Reanimator
1-0 (Favorability 2) Death/Stoneblade Variants
3-1 (Favorability 3) Shardless Bug
4-1 (Favorability 5) Death and Taxes
4-1 (Favorability 5) Storm
0-0 (Favorability n/a) Grixis Delver
Match record tracks matches won, favorability is scored per games won/lost. The way I did the math is I gave myself +1 for ever game I win, and -1 for ever game I lost. The best showcasing of this is with the BR Reanimator matchup.
I played two matches against it, winning one and losing the other. One match I lost 0-2 meaning I got -1 for game 1 and -1 for game 2, totaling a -2 unfavorability. The second match it was reversed with me winning both games 1 and 2 for a total +2 favorabilty.
As can be seen, Storm and D&T are super great matches while Shardless is more back and forth. However, with only 2 matches each for Elves and Reanimator and only 1 match for Show and Tell; the rest of the list is not as effective at telling a narrative. My prior iterations of Maverick had a high favorability against S&T and Grixis Delver, but those two decks all but disappeared from my meta for a long time now. My prior trackers showed negative matchups against elves so even though its only over two games its still consistent with my past experience.
If I were to use my intuition instead of my current numbers the ranking would be as such.
Omnishow
Elves
TES
BR Reanimator
UB Reanimator
Death and Taxes
Death/Stoneblade Variants
Shardless Bug
ANT
Sneak and Show
Grixis Delver
I expanded the matchups that should be expanded due to how different the actual games are against them.
EDIT: Had them ranked in the wrong order, it is now fixed.
isnt it easier to just make a list with a selection of sideboard cards to bring in against these decks?
everybody is maybe ranking matchups different.
kinda like:
Elves :
Best Cards: Zealous P, Toxic D, Ethersworn Canonist
Good Cards: Gaddock Teeg, Containment Priest
etc. etc.
Because it's about seeing which cards have the most impact versus which cards have the most relevance.
Elves
BR Reanimator
Show and Tell
Death/Stoneblade Variants
Grixis Delver
Shardless Bug
Storm
Death and Taxes
Show and Tell
Elves
Grixis Delver
Death/Stoneblade Variants
BR Reanimator
Shardless Bug
Storm
Death and Taxes
To make a prairie, it takes a clover and one bee. One clover, a bee, and revery...
I'll chime in, even though I'm really unsure about the order here - feel free to ignore the list. I think the list depends on which version you play against and what sideboard cards you have, thus I have commented on the matchups and my reasoning and if anyone thinks I'm wrong somewhere I'd like to read your comments. E.g. I always play tutor+plague (lately even double plague) which is pretty good vs elves and tutor + leyline + RiP and pithing needle/-s which have been good vs reanimator.
Grixis Delver (w Cabal T)
Show and Tell (w Omni)
Storm(TES) / Elves
Shardless Bug
Grixis Delver (w/o Cabal T)
Show and Tell (w/o Omni)
BR Reanimator
Death/Stoneblade Variants
Death and Taxes
It's been a while since I played these decks, and I'm really unsure about the list - thus comments.
Grixis Delver should be an ok matchup, Choke can win it but if they play t2 Pyromancer and t3 Probe + Therapy the whole hand is gone and it's really difficult to come back. I tried Depths + Stage as a meta call in an important local tournament and it worked out, Knight can be hard for them to remove and similarly Marit Lage who they can't block many turns and have some difficulty in fighting. We have enough creatures to not worry about Diabolic Edict.
Show and Tell used to be a good matchup but Kozilek's return means all the hatebears die, unless we can put a sword/jitte with counters on them (and these are tempting to board out). Show into Omniscience can be troublesome but Canonist and Thalia with Qasali backup cab answer that. I'm trying Prelate now who answers all the problematic cards.
Storm and Elves feel pretty equal to me, but I usually play against TES which is quicker than ANT (a disadvantage for us, also they have Burning Wish which doubles as sweeper/win condition) and he knows I'm often on Maverick and by default Therapies t1 for Thalia if on the draw. Regarding Elves maybe it's worse than I feel but with Wasteland and plenty of removal it's often possible to delay their combo-wins, and that can buy time to get an active Jitte [edit: and/or Gaddock into play]. I don't feel like it's super bad, and post sideboard discard and engineered plague help out a lot in slowing the game down further to get Jitte online.
Blade decks - Thalia + Wasteland is ok, Deathrite gives further tempo advantage, StP takes their Deathrites and we have 6 Qasali + X decays to make sure they never get any equipment online. I feel like it's usually pretty ok. [edit: and Titania can swing the game and win quickly with an active KotR/Mother, Sigarda good too but easier to race with TNN, equipment etc]
Shardless - I didn't play against this deck for a long time but Thalia + Wasteland is great, we have a mana denial deck and they are very mana hungry. Also Sigarda or Titania usually wins the game. So as far as I remember starting out by StP-ing their Deathrite, following up with our own Deathrite/Thalia/Wasteland that they need to deal with and then playing KotR, untapping Knight and getting Cradle, tapping Cradle for a) GSZ for Titania/Sigarda, or b) playing, equipping and connecting with Jitte/Sword of F&I is a pretty good gameplan. With Choke being very good too. Still Deluge + Planeswalkers is a bit tough. Aura Shards was very good in this matchup since you just destroy all Strixes and Agents for free, you just need to answer their goyfs.
BR Reanimator - I feel slightly favored in this matchup, maybe that is wrong but if they don't have the super great start we have a lot of relevant 1 cmc-cards before and after boarding, and even when they have the great draw chances are I have my 1 of Leyline too (much less chance of course) or t1 tutor into t2 rest in peace. They have potentially great starts but are more vulnerable to mulligans while we have a lot of ways to answer their not blazing fast starts - and with leyline sometimes there is even the very easy wins. [edit: Pithing Needle on Griselbrand means an StP answers their entire gameplan, Karakas too to some extent]
Death and Taxes - we win the removal, the equipment and the topdeck battle and thus the game.
Last edited by pettdan; 05-12-2017 at 08:31 AM.
I'd like to chime in on your BR Reanimator comments as its relevant overall.
Oftentimes you need to know *what* advantages an opposing deck has and decide if the cards needed to answer it are worth the sideboard space. BR Reanimator, similar to TES, Belcher, and all the other fast combo lists often only wins because the have a fast turn 1 or turn 2 opening. For some of them, even a turn two combo is too slow. So you end up never needing sideboard cards because why sideboard for a card that will only be relevant in the opening hand?
So even if an opposing deck is super unfavored--its often better to not have sideboard hate for it at all if there isn't enough gains losing the sideboard slots.
As for your comment on Show and Tell *AND* TES--I find more and more that Prelate on 3 and 2 respectively often wins it.
#PrelateHype
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
Just came back from a 25 player tournament with 2 prelates main, 2 side in a pretty standard GWb list.
Felt pretty good overall, although the meta was mostly creatures, so I only got to prelate for value a couple of games.
I was expecting way more combo than there ended up being.
Just made it to the finals of the legacy challenge on maverick. I just put together the deck this week using TMagpie's list with a few budget replacements.
Went 8-2 in 10 rounds including Top8. Both losses were to elves including the finals.
Solnox on MTGO
Miracles is a good matchup for depths. Quote me on this
Griselbrand is not an interesting creature.
Dread it. Run from it. Marit Lage still arrives
Congrats! Could you share your list please? :)
To make a prairie, it takes a clover and one bee. One clover, a bee, and revery...
Sure:
// 60 Maindeck
// 2 Artifact
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
// 27 Creature
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
1 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Sanctum Prelate
// 1 Enchantment
1 Sylvan Library
// 4 Instant
4 Swords to Plowshares
// 22 Land
2 Forest
2 Plains
1 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Horizon Canopy
// 4 Sorcery
4 Green Sun's Zenith
// 15 Sideboard
// 5 Creature
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Sanctum Prelate
// 6 Instant
SB: 2 Zealous Persecution
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay
// 4 Sorcery
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Council's Judgment
I didn't do particularly well, 3-1-2, hindsight meta would have had me go back to two abrupt decays main, really needed the extra removal over combo stopping ability (which is what I assumed I needed going in).
I see, Decays are pretty useful, agreed. And sometimes (e.g. mirror, D&T) there is just no good number for Prelate to name that doesn't affect you too.
What about the sideboard ones, were they as useful? I'm currently thinking whether I want to squeeze a couple of them in, probably instead of a Pithing Needle and a Maelstrom Pulse.
P.S. Do you really think that we still need a second Teeg in sb, since Miracles are gone?
To make a prairie, it takes a clover and one bee. One clover, a bee, and revery...
I played in a local tournament today, higher stakes than the weekly event but slightly less players at something like 26-28.
I played the same list as DoomRabbit but +2 Abrupt Decay, +1 Titania [edit: +1 Renegade Rallier] and -1 Mother, -1 KotR, -1 Noble Hierarch. Sideboard quite different. I'll just give a few brief comments.
SB:
1 Golgari Charm (to regenerate hatebears vs combo decks, also a sweeper, more comments below)
1 Engineered Plague
2 Thoughtseize
2 Duress (I've lost a lot of games vs UR Delver, also Burn has been prevalent)
1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation (see above comment, also good vs Storm)
1 Containment Priest (I added it for some extra game vs Elves and Big Red etc)
1 Pithing Needle
1 Phyrexian Revoker (I want a second card after Needle vs Walking Ballista, but Revoker works vs Storm hence the split)
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Rest in Peace (glad to have had this today, though I managed to dodge the multiple lands players)
1 Leyline of the Void
1 Choke
I expected a lot of Storm, Infect some Elves and maybe some Lands and Sneak 'n Show as well as probably two thirds fair stuff. I was hoping the Prelates would swing the unfair games to my advantage, didn't meet too much of that. Prelate on 4 was relevant in the Elves matchup, they died quickly vs Czech Pile who play a lot of removal and with varied CMC's and in the other games I didn't see them. Another deck building choice for today was to sideboard Golgari Charm since I realized (or rather, I was reminded by another thread) that it's very good at protecting our hatebears vs sweepers, especially I think of Kozilek's Return that I run into all the time, while also clearing goblin tokens or Sneak Attack/Blood Moon in the same combo matchups. It's a much worse sweeper though. In the end I only experienced the downsides, I had to destroy 4 of my own creatures vs Elves to do the same to the opponent so Zealous Persecutions / Engineered Plague would have been better today in this slot [edit: or actually, two of my creatures that died were Deathrites at 0/1 due to Plague, so a second Plague would have still destroyed two of my creatures]. Still I like the idea of regenerating all hatebears.
R1: Grixis Delver (no Therapies, not sure it matters but still). G1 he drew well and the game looked lost (Bolt my t1 Mother, Daze Thalia, Waste my black mana source, FoW my second Thalia, Delver, Bolt my Qasali, Deathrite, Gurmag. Staring down a Gurmag, Deathrite and Delver with not so much life I get Scryb Ranger and then Jitte and can turn it around. Scryb Ranger's flying and protection from blue was great today.
This match: 2-0. Matches in total: 1-0. Games in total: 2-0
---
R2: Belcher 1-2. Losing the dice roll was bad, also I mulliganed for discard but couldn't find it in G2 and G3. Won G2 when he had a slow start. I had t1 Pithing Needle for Belcher in G2, but he got the belcher win t1 in G3.
This match: 1-2. Matches in total: 1-1. Games in total: 3-2
---
R3: Czech Pile / BUGr control 2-1. Mana denial won 2 games, and in one of them he played three cantrips and only found two lands throughout the game. Choke was great.
This match: 2-1. Matches in total: 2-1. Games in total: 5-3
---
R4: BUG Delver with Stifles and Hymns, 0-2. G1 I think a TNN went the distance. In G2 I didn't draw too well and a Liliana of the Last hope with a Strix that he could replay thanks to Liliana prevented me from interacting. I tried to waste him out before that but he commented that he drew all lands but 1 this game, so that wasn't very successful. I was really waiting for equipment in game 2, I just had to crash all my creatures into his Strix to try to deal with the Liliana.
This match: 0-2. Matches in total: 2-2. Games in total: 5-5
---
R5: Elves 0-2. We were already out of contention for top 8 at 2-2 but played it out. G1 I think I StP'ed his t1 mana dork but if I'd kept it for the Symbiote I could have connected with the Jitte in my starting hand. T3 GSZ for Gaddock kept GSZ and Natural Order away but after replaying the Visionary a few turns he could hardcast Craterhoof. G2 was really strange and we both draw pretty bad, I did get Engineered Plague into play and eventually a Jitte, he Reclamation Saged to destroy the Jitte and then after 5-8 rounds of staring at each others nonexistant armies he Glimpsed three times and drew half the deck off his 0/0 elves, he managed to find 5-6 creatures that survived and thanks to the two Cradle activations he achieved he could Craterhoof for the win.
This match: 0-2. Matches in total: 2-3. Games in total: 5-7
Conclusion: will do more testing of Prelates.
Last edited by pettdan; 05-15-2017 at 03:19 AM.
I quite liked the 2-2 split. When they're good, they're very good, and hitting them is a pretty big play, and when they're bad, they're pretty bad.
So game 2-3 on you should have the perfect number in the deck, and game one is a hedge.
For Gaddock teeg, I'm not sure. He plays a pretty similar role to prelates, but has some downsides for us too, question becomes how important is it to blank 4 and up instead of just 4?
If the answer is just 4, then is the fact that he's much easier to cast, and is GSZable enough of an advantage to still run him over prelate.
On another note, had a bunch of friends come back from a big tournament in the Netherlands and say that the meta was Elves Elves Elves and ANT and SnS.
Big thalia is pretty great against two of those decks, but is she better than prelate in that meta?
The biggest draw to Teeg is Prelate + Teeg...
And the GSZ-ability, 1 Gaddock is easier to find than 4 Prelates.
Edit: Which DoomRabbit just said. Having some consistency in finding Gaddock is very important.
Yes, I think we never cut one for the other, finding the balance between the two is the key.
hi new mav player here, was a junk player but trying to switch decks for the moment.
have tested this much yet.
went with the DD thespian as an alternative kill here.
most list i see there are 25+ creatures
and no maze...
do you think this list has to much removal?
will post results on how this build turns out soon. (",)
thanks
25 LANDS
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
4 Windswept Heath
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
1 Maze of Ith
22 CREATURES
3 Mother of Runes
2 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
3 Dark Confidant
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Qasali Pridemage
10 INSTANT & SORCERIES
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 OTHERS
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sylvan Library
15 SIDEBOARDS
2 Pithing Needle
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Choke
3 Thoughtseize
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Faerie Macabre
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Containment Priest
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Golgari Charm
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