[Deck] GW/x Maverick

[Morte]

Yeah, Life from the Loam, recurrent and not subject to standard removal, is a terrific spell and makes plenty of sense to me as a long-game CA singleton (in the slot where some people put Sylvan Library, I would guess) even without a Punishing list. I haven't run it in Maverick but I've seen it used in non-Punishing builds, particularly in board.

Life from the Loam doesn’t make the cut in straight GW maindeck lists, it’s simply not required. There, it’s just a sideboard option against control. In Punishing lists, which have a much more fragile manabase and rely heavily on Grove of the Burnwillows to recur Punishing Fire, a lategame tool to recur lands is a key for the stability.

I did guess that Crucible is in place of LFTL, but why the choice? Seems to have very little advantage over Loam in our context.

Maybe I wasn’t clear enough in my previous post. The list with Crucible you mentioned was played by Fabian Gorzgen. The same Gorzgen, the day after, chose to switch Crucible for LftL in the list he actually played to T8 the GP. Hence, the same Gorzgen came to the conclusion that Life from the Loam was better than Crucible of Worlds. The list you mentioned was just a final test, and is an outdated list.

Actually, I suppose thinking about it more those Enlightened Tutors are still there in the sideboard (...)

In fact, you never play Enlightened Tutor MD. It’s a sideboard option to improve your hate density, usually against non-blue decks.

[sir]

In fact, you never play Enlightened Tutor MD. It’s a sideboard option to improve your hate density, usually against non-blue decks.

You misread me. :( I know this. I am an experienced G/W Maverick player and a good one if I may say so, and I know how Enlightened Tutor is properly used. Mainboarding it (if you're actually playing this deck) is insane.

I was being rhetorical to point out what I perceived as the flaws of trying to pull off the one copy of Crucible of Worlds effectively, and I wondered if the point was to use Tutors on it in G2 and G3 since it's all by its lonesome in G1 which seemed to me like a poor plan. That is my point and my point only.

Maybe I wasn’t clear enough in my previous post. The list with Crucible you mentioned was played by Fabian Gorzgen. The same Gorzgen, the day after, chose to switch Crucible for LftL in the list he actually played to T8 the GP. Hence, the same Gorzgen came to the conclusion that LftL was better than Crucible of Worlds. The list you mentioned was just a final test, and is an outdated list.

Ah, okay, no I didn't pick up on that or misread. I should have checked out the names on both lists. Well, I'm glad he came to the same conclusion that I theorized -- Crucible is worse than Loam for us. :P

What's really nice about his lists are the sideboard choices and the use of Bojuka Bog (did that make maindeck in the final draft as well)? I've always thought a Bojuka Bog can be quite nice in the main. Really messes with a lot of people's day, and you can fetch it.

It's probably harder to pull off without having mana difficulty when you're rolling with Groves, but also synergistic (in a way), as Fatal drafted out. The same trick as I use it for anyway against aggro ... suddenly hobbling their creatures ... but with the fire to throw at things newly toughness-2.

Life from the Loam doesn’t make the cut in straight GW maindeck lists, it’s simply not required. There, it’s just a sideboard option against control.

Which is how I saw it, although I don't see it as such a bad slot include in the place of Sylvan Library (or, say, Elspeth .. and it's a far better choice than Edric), depending on what you're up against. The thing about Loam is that it's fine to turn up in the late game, which is why it's not uncommon to see people just running a single copy without any way to fetch it.

Or maybe I'm just scarred from playing an inordinate number of games against Pox. I agree, it's an irregular inclusion. Not unheard of, is all I'm saying.

In Punishing lists, which have a much more fragile manabase and rely heavily on Grove of the Burnwillows to recur Punishing Fire, a lategame tool to recur lands is a key for the stability.

Yeah, absolutely. The additional pertinence should be very clear. The fragility of the manabase is the first thing I noticed, although it seems like the makeup was selected with a lot of care, and it appears to have paid off.

Crackpot suggestion time. I think they (Punishing Mavericks -- sounds like a pro wrestling stable) should try a couple copies of Living Wish, which has proven pretty bad for straight G/W Maverick but worth a check. Put one grove in sideboard and grab it when you want it, utility lands like Bog or Tower of the Magistrate or Maze* grab one when you need one, take the creature you want, yadda yadda. Too bad it's slow ... but hey, not as slow and transparent as Enlightened Tutor for desired pieces, if you indulge my asymmetric comparison.

*(would be kind of nice to sideboard that for Living Wish as long as you have enough -- would help the mana stability you mentioned if not in main -- not that I can suggest this, Maze is too good as a KotR fetch -- but I don't play Punishing Fire. Same goes for Tower of the Magistrate ... moreso. That could be a colored-mana producing land.)

I think we're on the same page about Crucible.

But!! Now I demand you two justify (i.e. enlighten me as to the apparent effectiveness of) the use of 1 Qasali Pridemage mainboard with 1 Qasali Pridemage in the sideboard ... did Fabian hurt for artifact/enchantment hate? My impression was if you want to cut down to 1 Pridemage main (and we're splashing not blue but red) then you want something more comprehensive in the board, like several Krosan Grips (which a few months ago were pretty common as a duo on top of 3, only occasionally 2 Pridemages main), or Serenity, Null Rod/Stony Silence, etc. I suppose Oblivion Ring can work in a pinch, and Phyrexian Metamorph will wipe out a more common Qasali target.

The other component of Pridemage of course is that it's a nice beater and team player, but I imagine this is made up for with recurrent direct damage, so that's not what I wonder about so much.

Thanks for the replies and apologies for my unclear and brain-damagedly parenthetical writing style. This is a good discussion. Over at mtgsalvation, the Maverick thread is ... *crickets*, you know?

[Asthereal]

Cutting down on the Pridemage count is primarily done because the Punishing Fires tech allows us to do a lot of damage to the creatures,, which makes destroying artifacts less important. The biggest artifacts we must destroy nowadays are equipments, and if we kill their carriers, that will do fine as well.
The one Pridemage sideboard fits well with Zeniths and the rest of the deck. A one-of Grip would do less damage. I would advise on a Serenity or Null Rod only if you expect many Affinity/Mud decks in your meta. They seem narrow for something as big as a GP.
I usually play two Pridemages main and one side. That does okay for destroying nasty artifacts so far (but I don't play the Punishing Fires tech).

I usually drop my games to nasty buggers messing up my mana base. Wasteland + Stifle does me in so many times, it's getting annoying. Really because my teammates playing Tempo Thresh are complaining on how badly the Maverick matchup is for them. Am I just unlucky, or do I need to side imn additional Loams to stop them from hurting my mana base so much?

[Koby]

@ Tempo Thresh
I think this matchup can be difficult if you're not playing carefully. You have to manage your fetchlands & Wastelands very closely and be wary of Stifle. Fetching basics is always a good call. Having a healthy paranoia of Wasteland will lead to your success! Aside from Stifle, the RUG versions are fairly easy to beat once you have some lands out. Kill Lavamancers on sight, try to get Mother of Runes to stick, and resolve Knight of the Reliquary. Don't be afraid of baiting out some counters with SFM, but also be wary of Stifle on its ETB ability. GSZ for Terravore, KotR, and Ooze are the best here.

Post-board remember that Gaddock Teeg shuts off their Submerge. They will likely take out Force of Will too. Keep an eye out for Gilded Drake and Mind Harness.

[bakofried]

I'm going to be putting together a list, essentially from scratch. Which list should I shoot for? Punishing? Edric? Traditional?

[Koby]

I think the Punishing Fires version is really tricky to play correctly (even having a ton of experience with Maverick). I would recommend to start off with traditional GW Maverick. The decks are only different by less than 10 cards at that point. The consensus regarding Edric is that it's win-more and doesn't provide enough advantages compared to the cost of the card in the deck.

[Eatatjoes]

So with counterbalance coming back, do you guys think this deck needs to put 2 krosan grips back in the board again, or is green sun zenith good enough to beat it?

[Asthereal]

About Tempo Thresh: the thing with managing fetches carefully is: if I wait with fetching until he taps out, I just get killed by a flipped Delver. I have to just go for it and hope he doesn't carry too many Stifles. Killing any Lavamancers on sight is also not that easy carrying only four StPs. Even after siding when I played sever StP effects they managed to keep one on the table. But perhaps I'm just not lucky enough to consistently go turn 1 Forest into Hierarch. They seem to have trouble with that.

About Counterbalance: you normally run 2-3 Pridemages, 4 Zeniths and a Thrun somewhere in the list. If you see a LOT of Counterbalance again, perhaps you should include Elspeths (which are also good against other control and give a nice edge in the mirror). I think you should beat Counterbalance quite consistently if you pack all the above, and then I'm not even mentioning Choke.

For people starting with Maverick: just start out with the stardard GW list. Pack 3-4 Mothers of Runes, and 3 Mindcensors. Take any of the green bullet creatures you like, pack 1-2 Sylvan Libraries and off you go. Just play with it for a while and familiarize yourself with the mechanics. There's more than enough tricks in the standard list as it is. If you like it and play well with it, maybe it's time to experiment a bit with 'funny' stuff like Punishing Fires, or a bigger Loam package. Edric is very cool, but if he sticks and you get value out of him, you were already winning without him. An extra Knight would then have done the job just as nicely. Not worth messing your mana base for, IMO.

[sir]

Top-secret tech I thought of: 1 Absolute Law in the enlightened tutorboard? What do you guys think?

Cutting down on the Pridemage count is primarily done because the Punishing Fires tech allows us to do a lot of damage to the creatures,, which makes destroying artifacts less important. The biggest artifacts we must destroy nowadays are equipments, and if we kill their carriers, that will do fine as well.

Gotcha. Good reasoning ... I guess taking over for Qasali Pridemage also helped the choice of maindecking 1 Tower of the Magistrate in Gorzgen's list, despite mana being difficult. Kill a germ or unattach an equipment from anything else.

Equipment is the main Qasali target for sure. Other than that I've Qasali'd chalice of the void, storm combo pieces (from the less adept players who put out their stuff too early), Bitterblossom occasionally, etc. But I suppose the 1 Pridemage that you could fetch (and 1 in sideboard) is enough for these purposes. OK, makes good sense. Not about to cut Qasali from my traditional Maverick lists -- 2 would be minimum and I like 3 -- since it's a perfectly good beatdown, but yeah for Punishing that makes total sense, thanks.

[Julian23]

Top-secret tech I thought of: 1 Absolute Law in the enlightened tutorboard? What do you guys think?

Why would you want an Enchantment, that can not be protected by Mother of Runes, instead of Ethersworn Canonist?

/edit: yeah, got it confused with Rule of Law. Look at me, using Card-Tags and shit, yet failing to talk about the actual card, lol.

[sir]

Why would you want an Enchantment, that can not be protected by Mother of Runes, instead of Ethersworn Canonist?

You're thinking of another card, not Absolute Law -- I remember what you mean although the name escapes me. I would not run that card.

Absolute Law is this:
1W
Enchantment
All creatures gain protection from red.

It's not for Storm naturally, but as something you could pull in for all the lightning-bolt/chain-lightning/lavamancer/fire and ice/Snapcaster people running around who want to blow your poor support cast to smithereens. Seems it could be pretty helpful, as long as it's worth it to board in the Tutors to search for it. (And it seems it is ... since you probably wouldn't mind fetching Choke either against most of these opponents -- not talking about burn, which isn't that threatening to us anyway, but Threshold et al.)

Of course I run 2 Ethersworn Canonists. (and 4 Mother of Runes maindeck) That's something I'll never cut from board. Along with other stuff that helps, like Stony Silence.

========

edit: I just remembered ... Rule of Law is the one-spell-per-turn enchantment you're referring to. Yeah, not what I would consider a good choice at all, for precisely the reasons you outlined. Ugh, it even costs 1 more than Canonist, gross.

[unicoerner]

That's my listi am running now.

// Lands
1 [IN] Forest (4)
1 [B] Plateau
2 [U] Taiga
2 [A] Savannah
3 [FUT] Grove of the Burnwillows
2 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
4 [JGC] Windswept Heath
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
2 [TE] Wasteland
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [DK] Maze of Ith
1 [ON] Plains (2)

// Creatures
2 [COM] Scavenging Ooze
1 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
3 [COM] Mother of Runes
2 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
2 [8E] Birds of Paradise
1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
1 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [TSP] Scryb Ranger
1 [COM] Eternal Witness

// Spells
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
1 [GPX] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [MBS] Sword of Feast and Famine
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
3 [ZEN] Punishing Fire
1 [NPH] Batterskull

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
SB: 2 [TE] Choke
SB: 2 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
SB: 4 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 [U] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [IA] Pyroblast

Some comments to the main:
I am back to 4 Mystics+Batterskull+2 Equips. The reasons are:
1) If we fetch a Skull and they destroy our Mystic they already have one removal less for our real creatures.
2) While boarding they have to decide whether they want to go grave hate, artefact hat or to dilute their deck entirely

I removed the Avens because i felt that opponents always saw them coming and keeping the 3 mana up didn't let me put pressure on the opponent.

Witness is back in, because getting equips or a swords back is crucial sometimes.

On the side:
With access to red now, we perhaps can attack combo and blue decks at the same time with our blasts.

[privatevendetta]

This is my first post on this forum so yay me.
I wanted to throw in my opinion concerning Batterskull. I have often read the argument that Batterskull is stuck in your hand, when Stoneforge is destroyed. I personally have never found this to be a problem. In cases where I expect a removal for Stoneforge I usually dont fetch Batterskull without the possibility to hardcast it in the near future. That means, that I should have access to around 4 mana at the moment (usually 3 in play and one Mana Dork, GSZ or Land in hand). If that is not the case I go for Jitte or SoFaI. Most of the time you should have something to do in the mean time, so if Batterskull would be your only spell and you have not enough mana, youre going all in for Batterskull, which is not the kind of play I prefer.
So the argument depends heavily on your use of Stoneforge.

Next would be my current list, so here it is.

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Mother of Runes
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Aven Mindcensor
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Birds of Paradise
2 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Scavenging Ooze

4 Green Sun's Zenith

3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

1 Dryad Arbor
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Tower of the Magistrate
4 Wasteland
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Savannah
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath

SB: 4 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Phyrexian Metamorph
SB: 1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 1 Stony Silence
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
SB: 2 Choke
SB: 1 Serenity
SB: 1 Life from the Loam


I've forgone the mainboard tricks for 3 Phyrexian Revokers. They have their uses against a great variety of cards, especially against fringe decks. I'm not sure if I would take them to a GP but I'm in love with these cards. Together with the full package of Wastelands and Mindcensors they let me switch into a control roll pretty easily. It also improves the BUG matchup slightly, because casting it can either force an opponent to use a Pernicious Deed or render it useless.

Scryb ranger seems kind of win more to me.

Scryb Ranger provides three key elements:
1. Re-use for creatures that have a tap ability (Mother of Runes, Knight of the Reliquary, etc)
2. Works with Dryad Arbor to produce a "fog" effect against non-trampling ground guys
3. Pro-blue flyer against Jace TMS, Vendilion Clique, and Merfolk.

Other uses
4. Helps provide extra mana when you don't have any lands to play for the turn.
5. Protects your Savannahs and Dryad Arbor from Wasteland.

1. Although an additional mother seems nice I rarely need two. Most opponents dont have 2 spot removals. I'd rather have a 2nd Knight. But one should be enough against most opponents.

2. Don't we have the biggest nontrampling ground guy in the format?

3. Although it is Jaceproof TM im mostly happy with them bouncing my guys. Because most of the time that means they are going down. I rarely find a Clique in play to be of any problem. And Merfolk what is that besides dead fish?

4. + 5. I like that really but its conditional. And a Wasteland on Dryad Arbor shouldnt be a good play for our opponent most of the time.


Concerning Tempo. I usually have no problem with that matchup. Maybe that's because of my huge number of basics maindeck or my sheer luck I don't know. Have some ramp in your hand and your good to go. Once you reach three mana you should win most of the time. Roughly spoken.


So I've rambled about enough. Some of my points may be exaggerated but I stand by them. I'm happy to hear your answers.

[Esper3k]

Just a point about the producing extra mana with Scryb Ranger - I don't think it's as conditional as you believe it is. All it means is that you have to have 0 lands in hand.

[Gustavoslash]

Hummm, what about GW order?
What do u guys think about it?

I did something like
-3 Stoneforge - 2 Sword of x and y
+4 Natural Order +1 Progenitus

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...8&iddeck=51133
This list doesnt use STF. I removed 1 Qasali, 3 Crusaders and 1 Ooze for NO Progenitus.

Do u guys think it can work?

Ill face Merfolks, Goblins, zoo, GW and a few dredge/Combo on my next champ.

[maurobad2k4]

Hummm, what about GW order?
What do u guys think about it?

I did something like
-3 Stoneforge - 2 Sword of x and y
+4 Natural Order +1 Progenitus

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...8&iddeck=51133
This list doesnt use STF. I removed 1 Qasali, 3 Crusaders and 1 Ooze for NO Progenitus.

Do u guys think it can work?

Ill face Merfolks, Goblins, zoo, GW and a few dredge/Combo on my next champ.

If you wont face a lot of blue decks, then it works. Otherwise, dont.

[privatevendetta]

Hummm, what about GW order?
What do u guys think about it?

I did something like
-3 Stoneforge - 2 Sword of x and y
+4 Natural Order +1 Progenitus

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...8&iddeck=51133
This list doesnt use STF. I removed 1 Qasali, 3 Crusaders and 1 Ooze for NO Progenitus.

Do u guys think it can work?

It can work and has in the Mental Misstep era. Though I think its a little bit weaker in a faster Meta than the Standard list and you dont really need it, i think its playable.

You should ad a second Sylvan Library though, to avoid drawing Progenitus.

[_erbs_]

It can work and has in the Mental Misstep era. Though I think its a little bit weaker in a faster Meta than the Standard list and you dont really need it, i think its playable.

You should ad a second Sylvan Library though, to avoid drawing Progenitus.

Hello,
I've always liked the idea of NO combo in the GW aggro shell but the problem of it is its very delicate in the sense if you draw the progen automatically 3-4 cards in your deck are dead draws already. If you use 1 mongrel or fauna shaman in your deck you still need gsz to find it. Using elspeth is a much safer and more consistent route, but i will not deny the fact that able to resolve a NO combo is a very very good win con over the equipment route. another problem with NO combo is that its weak against blue decks especially against merfs... funny how it seems but 2 early drops of cursecatcher by your opponents and NO is a dead card already.

I feel the best way to use NO is in a aggro bant shell in where you have counter backup for your NO.


@RED MAV
This seems to be off topic but i really don't understand whats the big fuss about red mav, i feel and based on playtesting its a slowwer big zoo, and red mav has a weaker build compared to it aswell. I know mav needs to evolve or add a new tech to fight against the new meta but i think going to the route of big zoo is not the way to do it unless we just merge mav and big zoo into one deck. I know people will argue that big zoo doesn't run mother of runes, but big zoo can run it aswell who's to say big zoo can't use mor in there deck. I know red mav is really strong mid to late bec of the recurring punishing fires and adds removal in which mav really needs help since day 1 but , that doesn't proved to be fatal as 4 removal was sufficient enough to make mav a good deck since day 1.

[Red Army]

Brainstorm is the key card that keeps Natural Order from sucking when you draw Progenitus. Silly elf decks are desperate enough run it, but seriously, I don't think it should be run without Brainstorm, or survival...

[Morte]

@RED MAV
This seems to be off topic but i really don't understand whats the big fuss about red mav, i feel and based on playtesting its a slowwer big zoo, and red mav has a weaker build compared to it aswell. I know mav needs to evolve or add a new tech to fight against the new meta but i think going to the route of big zoo is not the way to do it unless we just merge mav and big zoo into one deck. I know people will argue that big zoo doesn't run mother of runes, but big zoo can run it aswell who's to say big zoo can't use mor in there deck. I know red mav is really strong mid to late bec of the recurring punishing fires and adds removal in which mav really needs help since day 1 but , that doesn't proved to be fatal as 4 removal was sufficient enough to make mav a good deck since day 1.

I couldn’t agree less. Did you seriously test Punishing Mav? Direct damage is very useful early game too: when I was playing straight GW with 4 removals and failed to draw one, from time to time a single Bob or Lavamancer could own me. Punishing Fire solve the problem AND is brutal later. The mirror is also improved dramatically, planeswalkers becomes much less scarier, especially the new Liliana. I’d point that, besides speculation, the results of GP Amsterdam are a good evidence of how Punishing Mav is one step above (1st and 9th place over 1800+ people after Swiss, above all GW lists, with Fabian Gorgzen finishing first both at the GP and the trial).

About Zoo players, I think it’s a right choice for them to try to overlap more with Maverick. Of course… an even better idea would be totally switching Zoo for Maverick, it’s just a stronger deck