[Deck] GW/x Maverick

[Deckerator]

How does it perform when you play against the mirror with Thalia. Does it not feel a little bit too slow. Because punishing costs more to play? Or ooze will remove it?

[Esper3k]

I've never had a problem with Pfires + Thalia. 1 more isn't huge in the overall cost given how much mana the deck can generate.

[Water_Wizard]

Plus, vs. the mirror, Thalia is probably coming out.

I usually remove Thalia vs. creature-based decks - Mirror, Tribal, Nic Fit, etc.

TarmoX, thanks for posting you list.

REBs should probably be Pyroblasts - on the off chance Merfolk Phantasmal Images an non-blue creature (your Knight, etc.), you can still kill it.

Your lists looks really solid. I will probably make some small, personal tweaks and run a very similar list

- running 2 Jitte, no other equipment
- running LftL
- including 2 Linvala in the board
- running 2 Sylvan Library

Thanks!

[Water_Wizard]

Okay, so here's the list I just threw together. It's based mostly off of TarmoX's list with a combination of my 'old' (Nov '11) Punishing Mav list and Ben's Stark's GP list.

4 Windswept Heath
2 Woodedfoothills
2 Savannah
2 Taiga
1 Plateau
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Horizon canopy
1 maze of Ith
1 Karakas
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor


4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Punishing Fires
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Library
2 Umezawa's jitte
1 Life from the Loam
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant

3 Noble Hierarch
1 Birds of Paradise
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
1 Stoneforge mystic
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Qusali Pridemage
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Gaddock Teeg


SB (now)
3 Pyroblast
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Mindbreak Trap
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Path to Exile
2 Linvala, Keeper of Silence

In the main, Teeg and Elspeth are the flex slots. Teeg should definitely be in the 75, but he might be sideboard material. I included him the the main because I am not running Choke in the sideboard, and I figured Teeg would give a little boost to the UW matchup.

The sideboard is self-explanatory. I considered adding more graveyard hate, Krosan Grip, another planeswalker, a 4th Thalia, or a 2nd Karakas. Just have to test it and see where the meta is...

[rxavage]

Koby(mav) vs AJ Sacher(ubdelver) rd3 of SCG Vegas on right now.

[Water_Wizard]

Thank goodness Koby picked up Maverick again!

I haven't seen his results yet, hopefully he did well on the day

[Avatar of Light]

Thank goodness Koby picked up Maverick again!

I haven't seen his results yet, hopefully he did well on the day

Standings after Round 8

Koby finished 31st/222 competitors.

[mishima_kazuya]

As a general question, is it time to move back to Punishing Mav?

It seems like the meta has shifted and Tribal and Control are becoming more popular. It's been a while since I've seen a Punishing Mav build do well. A good Punishing Mav build would certainly take some tuning, moving away from Cavern of Souls and possibly Thalia. However, Punishing Fire is very good against Tribal and also as an alternative kill vs. slow control decks.

Another factor to consider in determining if the meta is ripe for Punishing Mav is the amount of graveyard hate. Punishing Mav does better in an environment with lower amounts of Surgical Extractions, Extirpates, Faerie Macarbes, Scavenging Oozes, Bojuka Bogs, etc. With the rise and apparent fall of Reanimator, perhaps graveyard hate is on the decline, but it may take a few weeks for this change to be reflected in sideboard allocations. Interestingly, Grafdigger's Cage does not effect Punishing Fire. Also, you can tap Grove of the Burnwillows in response to Extirpate, because tapping is a mana ability (avoids Split Second).

Overall, it seems like Thalia and Punishing Fire are at odds with each other. Obviously, it's a non-bo to play both. However, Thalia is very good against combo match-ups, whereas Punishing Fire is good vs. Tribal / swarm (the match-ups where Thalia is not so good). Both Thalia and Punishing Fire are good vs. RUG, and this is probably one of the few match-ups where I would want to run both.

The obvious solution is to cut Cavern of Souls, add some number of Grove of the Burnwillows, a Taiga, and a Life from the Loam (and possibly add a Birds of Paradise over a Heirarch -however, this creates Jitte issues) (You would add the lands at the expense the above-mentioned Caverns, some number of Wastelands and a Savannah), and play either Thalia/Punishing Fire maindeck while placing the other in the sideboard, depending upon your meta. The idea being that you would sideboard one for the other, with the possibility of playing both versus RUG.

On the East Coast of America you are guaranteed to play against RUG Delver at least once in a tournament. Combine with the scattered Griselbrand decks presence and you have plenty of reason to not run Punishing Fire...unfortunately.

Sylvan Safekeeper and Life from the Loam seems legit though, might try it out.

[Water_Wizard]

On the East Coast of America you are guaranteed to play against RUG Delver at least once in a tournament. Combine with the scattered Griselbrand decks presence and you have plenty of reason to not run Punishing Fire...unfortunately.

Sylvan Safekeeper and Life from the Loam seems legit though, might try it out.

Punishing Mav is better at beating RUG.
Your maindeck Punishing Fires equal recurring Delver destruction.
Your maindeck Life from the Loam helps out against Wasteland.
The Pyroblasts you bring in from the board defeat Brainstorms.

[mishima_kazuya]

Punishing Mav is better at beating RUG.
Your maindeck Punishing Fires equal recurring Delver destruction.
Your maindeck Life from the Loam helps out against Wasteland.
The Pyroblasts you bring in from the board defeat Brainstorms.

Sure Punishing Fire is killing Delvers. But it doesn't kill Mongoose and Tarmogoyf, which leaves your only out to be Knight of the Reliquary, which they can Submerge.

The problem with going long with Punishing Fire and Life from the Loam is that a good RUG player knows to keep up pressure on your life total so you will rarely have time to durdle with Life from the Loam and Punishing Fire tricks.

Also fetching basics is a good plan against Wasteland.

[KobeBryan]

Is one sylvan safekeeper and one loam enough to keep the engine running?

[Tammit67]

Punishing Mav is better at beating RUG.
Your maindeck Punishing Fires equal recurring Delver destruction.
Your maindeck Life from the Loam helps out against Wasteland.
The Pyroblasts you bring in from the board defeat Brainstorms.

Thalia and Punishing fire hate each other. Thalia is what shores up the actually bad matchups while being very relevant vs RUG. I don't like fires plan in the scheme of things

[Valtrix]

Thalia and Punishing fire hate each other. Thalia is what shores up the actually bad matchups while being very relevant vs RUG. I don't like fires plan in the scheme of things

I don't really see why the punishing fires gameplan is necessary. I feel as though any deck that PFires is good against, just running Stoneforge Mystic for Umezawa's Jitte or even Batterskull is going to just as much, if not more. Jitte is a free "2 damage" every attack phase anyway, and the lifegain is usually pretty tough for small creature decks to fight through. Plus, I think it's way more reliable in other matchups for not taking any setup except itself. Sure, it's a bit more mana-intensive, but I think that that's hardly a concern. And if you're worried about not having creatures for Jitte...Again, any deck that fires is useful against you will probably have creatures in play anyway.

[ryscott85]

I'd love to hear from Koby or Brian Moss if he is on the board. What were your strengths/weaknesses. What would you change if you would change anything going back into the same tournament?

[Water_Wizard]

The whole point of the possibility of switching back into a Punishing Fire build is to combat Tribal. If you read over the past couple of pages, there concern about the tribal match-up - "I can't beat Elves." Merfolk is on the rise. It looked like Goblins was going to make a comeback, but that apparently died.

Punishing Mav beats tribal more handily than GW mav. Punishing Mav also has a better match-up vs. RUG and UW. If Merfolk comes back, Punishing Mav dominates it, especially with the Pyroblasts from out of the board. Umezawa's Jitte is good in most match-ups and is a better catch-all, but Merfolk will often-times run their own for the legend rule (heck, even Elves is running a copy of Jitte). It's true, Punishing Fire can be eaten by an Ooze or Extracted, but it's solid tech vs. Tribal and I believe Punishing is more favorable vs. most non-combo blue decks.

However, straight GW with Thalia is best against combo decks. Personally, if I expected to play against a lot of combo (>50% Reanimator, Sneak & Show, Storm, Doomsday, and Belcher), I would would not run Maverick and I would run a deck with blue in it.

I did beat Elves over the weekend with a straight GW version of Maverick. However, I was running 8 exile effects (5 main, 3 board), 2 Jittes, in 2 Linvalas, and 1 SFM and we played 3 close matches. So, perhaps I detract from my own argument, but it was just an idea. Thalia and GW Mav have definitely been dominate the past few months.

[_erbs_]

Hi,
Im not sure how effective really is punishing mav vs merfs... on paper and theory it is because it has recursion but would 2 points of damage worth anything against LOA, MotPT, Coralhelm, Reerey & Phantasmal Image. thats 16-18 lords.

[mishima_kazuya]

How is Punishing Fire going to help you against RUG Delver when they are trying to kill you early? By the time you stabilize long enough for Punishing Fire recursions you should have the game locked up with a big Knight or a Jitte.

The only thing Punishing Fire kills is Delver of Secrets, which leaves their Mongooses and Goyfs mostly unmolested. Even at early game you want your removal to cost 1 mana instead of 2 to get around Spell Pierces and Dazes. Just playing more Path to Exiles in the 75 is better since it can also remove a Goyf.

[Water_Wizard]

In my experience vs. RUG, if RUG wins, it happens in 1 of 2 ways:

1) Maverick gets totally mana screwed (they stifle/wasteland/bolt our mana dorks) and then daze/fow some key spells. In situation 1, RUG can beat down with any creature, because Maverick's board never develops. In this situation, it really doesn't matter what version of Maverick you are playing because mana denial is mana denial (perhaps there is a slight argument for the GW manabase being more stable).

2) RUG gets an early Delver or two and flies to victory, bashing for 3/6 per turn. Maverick, with it's lack of flyers, needs to cast StP/PtE around RUG's dazes/fows/spell pierces. The beauty of Punishing Fire in this match-up is that it is recurring Delver removal (plus you can eat those Delvers with your Ooze). Maverick should be able to lock up the ground and produce larger creatures than Nimble/Goyf, especially once the Maverick player gets active graveyard hate in the form of Scavenging Ooze or Bojuka Bog.

This is all conjuncture. I've played GW Maverick and Punishing Maverick vs. RUG and I think the Punishing match-up is better (pyroblast is just good in this mu). However, GW is more focused vs. combo (Punishing Fire is really a dead card in the combo match-up). Punishing Fire is good vs. against tribal. If the meta shifts towards tribal, Punishing Mav is better again. Admittedly, I have not yet made the switch myself, but I haven't seen tribal pick up that much (I play on MTGO and the 13E release is delayed from paper Magic, so MotPT is not yet available). However, the second I start seeing Merfolk, I am switching to Punishing Mav.

@ erbs and regarding beating Merfolk, the secret is not to let them get big. If you can make it to the mid-game where Merfolk is playing off the top of their deck, Punishing Fire kills every single threat in their deck (including targeting a Phantasmal Image). Against Merfolk, Goblins, and Elves, once you handle their initial burst, you can effectively produce Punishing-Fire lock, where nearly every creature they cast can be answered by Punishing Fire. You gain such huge card advantage through recurring Punishing Fires that it wins you the match.

[_erbs_]

How is 2 points of damage from punishing fire going to help you ???? yes don't let the merfs get big... but 16-18 Lords and timely counters ..... vs 4 stp 3 fires ???? do you really think that its a good plan....

if your able to stop the initial onslaught then pfires will really work... but look at the numbers against your removals..

[Koby]

Sure, lets start off with lists. Bitches love lists.

Total: 61
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Mother of Runes
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
4 Thalia, Gaurdian of Thrabajsnkajsbea
3 Scavenging Ooze
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Linvala, Keeper of Shhhhhh

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Snacks
2 Sylvan Library
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith

4 Savannah (Beta of course)
4 Windswepth Heath
1 Green fetchland
2 Forest
1 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Karakas
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Maze of Ith
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 Path to Exile
2 Gut Shot
2 Armageddon
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Life from the Loam
1 Crop Rotation
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Spike Feeder

Nothing in the maindeck felt weak. Cavern of Souls once helped me beat Blue, then helped me to lose against Dredge where I needed to activate Ooze. Gaea's Cradle was never instrumental in a blow out, but also never hurt when I opened it up in my starting hand.

Sideboard...
Oblivion Ring was hardly used, as I ended up playing against relatively fair decks. Spike Feeder was a hedge against the always ever present Burn decks, but double duty against a slow Dredge draw. Armageddon was a blast playing against AJ Sacher, but I never needed it against other decks.

My two losses were Dredge piloted by Joseph Moreno (got Top 8), and Goblins piloted by Phimus Pan, also in the Top 8. I got a grant total of 4 turns against Dredge the entire match, and I mulliganed to 5 on the play against Goblins in game 3. I drew in the last round to get Top 32 for prizes, then went outside to smoke a spliff.

Along the way I beat:
Sneak Show
Delver
Delver
Delver
Reanimator (only lost 3 life the whole match, all to my own fetches)

Didn't feel like I was underpowered in any matchup, but the deck is still at the mercy of its topdecks.