Hi all,
I am new to the Forums and never played Legacy before (modern Player).
I want to start playing Legacy and Maverick is the deck of my choice.
Can somebody post me a decklist for a Burn, BUG and B/R Reanimator meta?
Is it possible to go with GW instead of GWb? Since I have to buy 70% of the cards it would be good if I could start with GW and buy Bayou, Scrubland later.. (I have 3 Noble Hierarchs, Wastelands, Jitte, fetchlands already..)
Thank you guys!
Best regards
Junk comes to Legacy from a different perspective than Maverick. As Junk, you are trying to quickly outvalue other players (Tarmogoyf, Hymn etc). Maverick has a completely different strategy: we don't really want to outvalue anybody, instead we want to screw up our opponents' game plans. And then beat them up with fair creatures. And the faster we do that, the better. This is why e.g. Thalia is our best friend in many games: 2 mana Brainstorm after a Wasteland is just way too expensive. I would recommend playing 4-of.Originally Posted by montoy
I don't think that in the current meta Maze is so amazing. Almost every deck that we might possibly want a Maze against is playing Wastelands, and is literally useless in many matches where we struggle. I don't think that right now it deserves a spot in our 75.
Golgari Charm: has more options than Zealous Persecutions, but there are so many games where we don't want to kill our Moms, Dryad Arbor and Thalias. I honestly don't like it.
3 swords - 3 decays - Pulse: way too expensive, don't forget that we're running Thalia and vs D&T your Pulse may easily go to 5 mana. Put it in sb and play 4 Swords and 2 Decays, these are the best removal we have.
Dark Confidant: this is an awesome card for Junk, and an awful card for Maverick. I understand that from your perspective, it's awesome. But it simply doesn't add to our strategy. It doesn't disrupt our opponents' game, and is simply not good enough for a slot. It is simply just not a hatebear. After a successful Thalia+Wasteland performance, it doesn't really matter how many cards you have in your hands, your opponent will need turns to really come back from it. On top of it, it's another creature that dies to Golgari Charm-like sweepers that we mostly try to survive with minimum casualties.
Mother of Runes: this is one of our best cards, we really want 4 (although, as you are running the combo, you may replace the 4th one with a Sylvan Safekeeper, this guy is brutal as he can protect our 20/20 token from literally anything but Terminus, and the latter is gone for good).
Manadorks: I like running 5 manadorks, not counting Arbor in. But 4 is the very minimum, Deathrite Shamans are so good that should be 4 automatically.
Scryb Ranger: this humble Faerie doesn't look that way from a first glance, but is very strong. It just allows to activate our strongest creatures that wins us the game - Knight, Mother & Deathrite several times a turn, produces mana when we're out of land drops, protects our Savannah/Bayou from Wasteland, flies, with Mom stops opponents' flyers (delver, marit lage, strix, flickerwisp, etc.) and breaks glaring non-flying standoffs, especially well with an equipment. This is the only flyer creature we get (unless we run a Birds), and it has won we countless games. Don't forget that we can Zenith for it, so we virtually play 5 of these.
Green Sun: this card is ridiculously good in our deck, always run 4.
Creature count (22) you are running is low. I would recommend looking at 25-26 for Maverick.
I understand that some of my comments might seem counter-intuitive from a Junk player's perspective, but give it a try. Once you "feel" how the deck works, you will understand that it is an optimal configuration.
Welcome to Legacy!
Maverick is not an easy deck to pilot, but it provides lots of fun and is very rewarding for good plays.
You can certainly play without black, but it will hurt a lot your combo matchups (especially Elves, Storm etc.) If your meta is low on combo, cutting black might be even an advantage (more basics, stable manabase etc.).
You can start with something like this: https://deckstats.net/deck-13131868-...9c2660b5f.html.
Sideboard Orim's Chant and Needles at least give you a chance to survive until Thalia vs fast combo decks. These are not as good as Thoughtseize, but this is your price for cutting black :) If your meta has more combo decks than you thought, more Orim's Chants and some Mindbreak Traps could help too. And you might want to try to fit a Faerie Macabre in sb if B/R Reanimators are going hard on you.
If Burn is a big thing in your meta, what you could also try is 3-4 sideboard Leyline of Sanctity - this also helps against Storm a lot, especially since nowadays they use Abrupt Decays as a tool to solve problems rather than e.g. an oldschool Chain of Vapor.
Last edited by aspsnake; 05-15-2017 at 08:34 AM.
To make a prairie, it takes a clover and one bee. One clover, a bee, and revery...
thanks for the detailed insight aspsnake!!
you were right on the spot where i was still thinking of junk.
also i feel totally naked not running LOTV and thoughtseize MB hahaha... but ill get used to that.
i didn't realize the power of the scryb.
so its something like GSZ replaces bob...something like that...
as for the maze... the meta at my place is infested with eldrazi and BR fatties...
though KOTR is usually larger than eldrazi...considering this as a flexible spot.
considering the birds (",)
all else fails we still have the 20/20 panic button.
thanks again for the comments really appreciate it.
Im wonder - can we play oldstyle maverick in new meta? Something like DNT, but with strong green cards: knight, ooze, teeg, scryb. We can use recruter instead gsz for searching singeltons.
Something like that:
2 Bayou
2 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Marsh Flats
1 Maze of Ith
1 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
1 Sylvan Library
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
4 Aether Vial
3 Recruiter of the Guard
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Mother of Runes
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Knight of the Reliquary
What do you think? Is it competitive or not? Is it worth to run it or we need just to pilot DNT or traditional build with gsz?
yes , it works well
an old example :
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15184&d=292092&f=LE
probably not with many recluiters, probably 1-2
I've played both and will say either is capable of winning.
The oversimplified question to ask yourself is whether you want a strong early game or strong mid/late game. Vial's early sequencing is usually a nice escalation of cc's and threats. Zenith tries to establish mana early and plop finishers late. Zenith is unquestionably better down the stretch than vial (especially topdeck mode). The way lists are configured, Zenith shells care more about 3 drops than vial. You're more dependent upon turn 1 dork/ramp into turn 2 three drop.
However, the utility creatures work better IMO when you can do vial tricks and/or ruin your own mana base with minimal consequence. The earlier Viciano Maverick lists still pack surprises the average player doesn't expect. The lines of play are much more intricate than any contemporary list. Vial at a certain point just laughs at reducing its mana output because playing and hurling wastelands at the opponent don't stop you from playing additional threats. I do not get that same feeling from GSZ. Zenith needs mana (Im a Cradle person when running zenith).
Vial also has the upside of making it easy to run non-green dudes. You're DnT with a few lateral adjustments. Running something like say, Bob, is much easier in vial IMO. With Zenith you need to muck up the lands you run to ensure you have b to cast Bob. Vial itself doesn't care about color and Cavern/DRS more than accommodate his inclusion.
Vial's shell is very DnT driven: 4 vial, 4 mom, 3-4 Thalia, 7 SFM package, 2 recruiter, 3-4 KotR, 4 stp, 4 wasteland.
Zenith shell: 4 GSZ, 1 arbor, 5 dork, 4 mom, 3-4 Thalia, 1 teeg, 2 QPM, 4 KotR, 4 stp, 4 wasteland, 1 cradle, 4 SFM package
I've been playing Vial Maverick before the top banning with some relative success. I found Recruiter to be too slow to be played, but Tireless Trackers work wonderfully: they can e.g. be vialed in a table with an active knight to find a Gaea's Cradle, drop a fetch and draw 3+ cards outright, they compensate a lot for the loss of GSZ.
Compared to Recruiters, Trackers can be biiiig :)
Here's the list that I've been playing: https://deckstats.net/deck-13149794-...0fd747bb3.html
Keep in mind though that this is pre-top-banning list, and it is quite optimized to play vs Miracles, so slight adjustments (e.g., sword of L&S should be probably replaced by a batterskull and +1 mystic should be added, cavern should be replaced by a basic land etc.) are required.
From my experience, vial list performs better vs creature-based decks: goblins, merfolks, d&t, elves, RUG delvers etc, especially with vial in the opening hand; I think it is also slightly better vs certain combo decks such as show&tell, mainly due to the mainboard prelates.
However, it but lacks the power of GSZ vs resource-exhausting decks that go into topdeck mode, such as pox, 4-color control, BUG delver and such.
To make a prairie, it takes a clover and one bee. One clover, a bee, and revery...
Fist thing - thank you guys for reply.
If we watch Magic Online meta, than it is clear that now we have 3 big contenders: grixis tempo, ant and sneak. My thought was to build maverick to answer these decks. And i think that vial maverick have edge in that matchups.
Sure thing that manabase need a single Cradle, it works very well with equipments and ooze. Good point, thank you. Maybe deck can use some confidants, it looks interesting. But i dont know what to cut.
I dont test recruters in the deck, in theorycrafting it looks good. But if you say it is slow, i got it. From my point of view vial maverick main edge is in use of Gaddock Teeg (he is better than prelate vs combo decks). Prelate on 1 or 2 can be beaten by ant or tes, but teeg in first game is like gg. Teeg also stops jace, sneak and fow. And finally - it shines in bloody mathup: elves. No more gsz or order! So - why do we need to run prelate instead of teeg in vial version?
Im understand that in sneak or omni match prelate on 3 is very good, but teeg usually do better things in other matches.
Too bad if recruter is too slow. I know that gsz version have some KA, but in vial version all we have - library. So i think that recruters can give some advantage, but need to test that to know for sure - is it worth it or no.
I agree that teeg is very good against combo like storm/elves but that's why I would make the case for GSZ over vial. Imo you just have a much better chance of actually getting Teeg online in the GSZ version. I think Prelate is a house against SnS and can be really good against Delver so I think that running copies of Prelate in a GSZ build is good. Plus GSZ allows more T1 ramp to try and get Prelate online T2.
Recruiter As others have said is just to slow in my opinion. At best we go into T1 ramp > T2 recruiter T3>*creature(hatebear)*
With GSZ you're faster and getting teeg online T2 against decks like elves and storm is a big deal.
I I think Vial has its merits, but everytime I played it I felt like I rather just play DnT
The first part about Teeg fitting better into Zenith is correct.
I think you're misunderstanding how to play Recruiter. You hold back on casting her -- she's next to last on my hierarchy unless I need *insert creature* immediately. Recruiter is functionally GSZ 5 and 6 for a creature of any color (restricted to what recruiter digs for) that always costs 2W. The odds Teeg comes out t2 via GSZ are extremely low (double dork + cradle + gsz)**.
My opening progression of t1-t2-t3 usually does not involve recruiter if I can help it. I do the usual dork, mom, thalia, kotr with spot removal. Recruiter isn't so high on the list. But at t4 and beyond, she's never a dead draw. Let's not forget how strong she is in Vial lists --> where you can play her, the target, or both off vial. This is why I feel she's part of the vial shell. She fits in so easily and synergizes with that build's inner strategy.
EDIT:**It's possible to play Teeg naturally or ensure you can cast him via turn 1 GSZ @ 0 for Arbor, but I'm looking at "Teeg is not in hand"
I should have clarified. I am referring to the difference of GSZ vs Recruiter and when you want to be tutoring/dropping down a hatebear. My point was basically that with GSZ you can get down a card like Teeg a turn faster which I think is relevant.
In other MU and general gameplan I am completely on board with how you are deploying Recruiter. I also 100 percent agree about Recruiter in a Vial shell. In fact, I think if you're dropping GSZ for Recruiter you need to be playing Vial.
While I know Warden knows his Shite, i figured clarification on the obvious would be good. T2 Teeg via GSZ (or natural) is probably ~40% chance (as it's probably 70+% to have acceleration [4 + 4 + 2ish], and ~40 for GSZ, and then there's natural teeg.)
From the junk mindset, and my recent playing with KotR in bant, i find it curious Goyf has never replaced him and Mav could just accept it's licks against Sneakshow/Reanimator while having a much much faster clock against most decks. I get that KotR can get big, but my recent playing with DRSs everywhere eating my lands has me down on the guy a bit.
That said, he won me a game or two against infect and lands due to wasteland-repeater action.
EDIT: @whoever was new
I hear you on Lily, i ran her for a couple years in *literally every deck I played* as a 3-4 of. The constant protection against combo, untargetable dudes, etc. feels pretty good. But so did $300+. Getting off that crutch really helps the brewing/willingness to play decks/colors.
I'm confused by what you mean. You can easily GSZ for Teeg on T2. All you need is a T1 mana creature and both your land drops. GSZ with X=2 gets Teeg and you get your free win.
I get that the odds of a T2 teeg off GSZ are low but it's possible. With vial/Recruiter it's not possible and part of what I am after is redundancy post sb of having as many ways to have a disruptive T2 hatebear. Recruiter gives me even less of a chance.
Edit: goyf isn't very good in a deck where you play permanents. He'd be much better in a junk list that's casting more spells and discard.
Being big is the least important aspect of Knight of the Reliquary. If you're primarily using Knight for it's size--then it would be better to run Goyf.
Oh I'm so sorry I misunderstood!
LOL thanks. Yeah I brain-farted and typed the wrong word. But I also got confused with what was being said. He comes out 1 turn faster, assuming you have the prerequisites of 1 dork, 2 lands, and a zenith in the opening 8 cards.
I'm still mulling around an updated post-top list but here is what I top 8'ed with a few months ago. 60th card is 3rd Thalia 1.0
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=22761&iddeck=176020
My notes talk about Ghost Quarter bring insane. I think I could make 4 waste 2 GQ happen.
2 Recruiter replace Revokers immediately. Not sure if I trade out QPM for Flickerwisps. Singleton Rallier was solid. It's possible to abuse him further but you need Scryb and fetches to do so.
The Teeg math vs combo is not meant to complicated.
If you run 2 Teeg, even if you have no Teeg/Zenith in your hand, you will have 6/52 chance of drawing Teeg/GSZ, 10/52 chance of drawing Teeg/GSZ/Thalia, and even more if you run Prelate.
The reason for this is because turn 1 mana dork allows 3 mana on turn two increasing substantially the number of live draws you have as opposed to either Recruiter OR Aether Vial which needs substantially more time before they provide you live draws.
That'd be neat. I'm still waiting for a non-Eldrazi deck to run Warping Wail due to running a bunch of colorless. I think a Grove/Pfire deck with wastelands could do it. Maybe you can start moving that direction a bit. I personally think Wail is pretty slick, but can't find a list I'd like with enough colorless sources to do it.
D&T running 4 Wasteland 4 Port 2 Cavern of Souls
I don't see a need for Wail. It doesn't remove TNN or stop combo decks (since I'm not sitting back on 1C every turn). Maybe the Vial list. Maybe.
I am also against pfires engine, as it's not where Maverick wants to be (see: Thalia 1.0). The strain of supporting a manabase with fetches, duals, groves, and wastes is too much. Philosophically, I've been drifting towards a mono-W manabase a la DnT with sufficient basics and mana disruption.
@Recruiter (again): The card is dope. It works best as 2x. The biggest appeal is that you're grabbing a key hatebear (any color) or knights at-will. It's also a set cost to play the "tutor with legs". I find its flexibility in tutoring to outweigh a vast majority of the cons. The more I think of the comparison to GSZ, the more I think we're dealing with apples:oranges as they do not compete for slots. Vial vs GSZ compete for the same slot. Recruiter competes with flex spots and/or allows you to shave down elements of the deck by 1x (as it acts like a virtual copy of nearly everything).
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