[Deck] GW/x Maverick

[Seraphix]

...

They are both Legendary and Hexproof for Karakas on our side of the board.... I don't know. They both seem eh in spots but neither jump right out and make me feel like I need them. Part of me would rather just play like an Eternal Witness or a Kitchen Finks or some other 3 drop. 4 and 5 mana just seem like such a far reach sometimes without Cradle and already being WAY ahead on board. Like even me with no Black might even just consider throwing in a Bayou and 1 DRS just to have ZP in the board.

I don't think you play Sigarda at all without a Cradle in your deck. I don't know why you wouldn't play Cradle in GW or GWb though because its really, really good.

What about Ground Seal? I know it is not GSZ-able, but my version I don't run DRS so I don't think I lose much by turning off the graveyard that way. Stops Snapcaster, Reanimator, DRS but doesn't reset the graveyard like Spellbomb/Crypt/Bojuka Bog/etc. I find DRS is an issue against me since I only have the 4 removal spells in StP in my GW version. GWb has ADecay to kill DRS, but I am left trying to be a little inventive :) (or once again I could stop being stubborn and just run black).

If you want more cheap answers to DRS in GW you can play Path or Sunlance in your board.

[oSeabass]

I don't think you play Sigarda at all without a Cradle in your deck. I don't know why you wouldn't play Cradle in GW or GWb though because its really, really good.

If you want more cheap answers to DRS in GW you can play Path or Sunlance in your board.

I'll have to try these out. Thanks for the help.

EDIT: I wanna also ask if anyone has done any testing with new cards from BFZ. As far as I know my understanding of the rules states that Devoid creatures have no color which is characteristic defining even when it is in the deck, so it cannot be searched up using GSZ.

Has anyone tried any of the Retreats that people got excited about when the Blue one was announced? I might slip a white retreat in mine online once it becomes available to see how it plays in the more Miracle heavy online meta.

[Warden]

I usually have 4 grave hate that double as things:

2 Rips/Relics/Nihil Spellbombs/etc..
2 Grafdigger's Cage

Cages are good enough (to side) for Elves and cantripping exilers are nice for lands or similar.

I'll say that Thalia/Wasteland/Discard often seem like enough vs. Dredge.. but I *really* hate the deck :p.

If you're vehement about including grave-hate, this would be my 4-card package:
2 RIP
2 Containment Priest

Dropping RIP shuts down dredge. Priest ruins the creatures-entering-play-from-the-GY shenanigans.
If you feel you need "speed" against the GY, you could run Surgical or Macabre instead of Priest. RIP is by far the best anti-GY effect.

@Dryad: Don't run it. It doesn't do "enough" IMO.

[tescrin]

If you're vehement about including grave-hate, this would be my 4-card package:
2 RIP
2 Containment Priest

Dropping RIP shuts down dredge. Priest ruins the creatures-entering-play-from-the-GY shenanigans.
If you feel you need "speed" against the GY, you could run Surgical or Macabre instead of Priest. RIP is by far the best anti-GY effect.

I tend to prefer 2x Spellbomb 2x Cage.
Spellbombs cantrip and don't hit my own grave. This is good for random things and lands so i keep my aggression (KotR/Goyf/DRS)
Cage hits Flashback in Dredge/Storm. Nuf said

I'm not a big fan of Surgical/Macabre. I've had dredge/reanimator play through them and they aren't reliable against Lands or similar. Nihil can be played around; but it's more difficult, and the cantrip fuels you into more hate. Nihil has random applications like fighting opposing KotRs, Loams, etc.. and is rarely bad by virtue of being one-sided and a cantrip. As you mentioned, I find the T1 answer important so I can get to bigger/better things

I'll say that I've had significant practice with this side against Dredge/Reanimator in a slew of decks. I know you've had significant wins/experience as well; I'm just saying that I'm not in armchair/theorycraft mode.

In that mode, I'll point out that Cage doesn't get Deluged against Elves (I like Deluge, I imagine you use ZP?)

[Warden]

I tend to prefer 2x Spellbomb 2x Cage.
Spellbombs cantrip and don't hit my own grave. This is good for random things and lands so i keep my aggression (KotR/Goyf/DRS)
Cage hits Flashback in Dredge/Storm. Nuf said

I'm not a big fan of Surgical/Macabre. I've had dredge/reanimator play through them and they aren't reliable against Lands or similar. Nihil can be played around; but it's more difficult, and the cantrip fuels you into more hate. Nihil has random applications like fighting opposing KotRs, Loams, etc.. and is rarely bad by virtue of being one-sided and a cantrip. As you mentioned, I find the T1 answer important so I can get to bigger/better things

I'll say that I've had significant practice with this side against Dredge/Reanimator in a slew of decks. I know you've had significant wins/experience as well; I'm just saying that I'm not in armchair/theorycraft mode.

In that mode, I'll point out that Cage doesn't get Deluged against Elves (I like Deluge, I imagine you use ZP?)

Not questioning your experience. You raise some interesting points. Perhaps I was unclear in some of mine.
If you're dealing with just dredge, 100% run RIP and Priest. Hollywood and others have told me those are the backbreaking cards to deal with (although Priest can die to contagion, it certainly inhibits dredge while it's out and only adds to the additional pressure you'll be dropping). Cage hurts you, as you'll want to zenith (either as mana-ramp or for a quality creature like DRS, Scooze, or QPM to self-sacrifice). Spellbomb is also a 1-time effect. I value RIP "doing something" when it is initially cast + while it remains in play.

When I mentioned "speed", I was referring to faster decks. Surgical and Macabre are better than Cag/spellbomb/and even Tormod's because they're both instant-speed and "free". Sometimes you need to protect against the turn 0 or turn 1 combo. Macabre should still be in the mix (lots of folks forget it's a card) because its effects can only be stifled. Force and Daze do nothing to prevent the removal of cards from the grave.

Worrying over storm, I'd still argue surgical being more practical. Any spell they play could be removed. Surgical also gives you valuable hand information. Spellbomb or Cage kinda sit there reactionary whereas Surgical leads to proactive moves. Surgical can ruin storm's plan if you catch them mid-sequence.

As for lands, the deck depends upon the GY. Since Krosan is usually the sb card of choice, RIP removing the existing GY is relevant, IMHO. RIP is an "answer me or you just don't get the GY back" effect. By contrast, spellbomb wouldn't react to split-second. So while you can sit back on "I can 'in response' nuke their grave", a solid lands player will bait you. I've learned this the hard way over the years.

Overall I wouldn't run cage because I find myself zenith-ing for bullets. I think "nobody has a grave" hurts them more than me. I can't say the same for cage's effects because when I can't tutor for specific creatures in the library, my own % go down). Cage could come in against elves, but again, I find myself wanting Teegs at-will. I bring sweepers in against Elves.

[bakofried]

I think 2 Containment Priests should be pretty standard in our sideboards right now. Sure, it shuts off our GSZ's....but at the same time, it turns Dredge off (which gives us time to get some work done with Scooze/DRS) and turns NO/GSZ off for Elves, which gives us time for our Deluges/Persecutions to come online. Not to mention SneakShow and Reanimator...

Question, though: if you are running C. Priest in the board, do you bring it in against Vial decks (D&T/Fish/Goblins)? It hurts our GSZ's, but the mana advantage from turning off Vial could be pretty clutch.

[tescrin]

Cage hurts you, as you'll want to zenith (either as mana-ramp or for a quality creature like DRS, Scooze, or QPM to self-sacrifice). Spellbomb is also a 1-time effect. I value RIP "doing something" when it is initially cast + while it remains in play.

Overall I wouldn't run cage because I find myself zenith-ing for bullets. I think "nobody has a grave" hurts them more than me. I can't say the same for cage's effects because when I can't tutor for specific creatures in the library, my own % go down). Cage could come in against elves, but again, I find myself wanting Teegs at-will. I bring sweepers in against Elves.

[priest]
Priest also hurts you; so i guess this is part of my confusion. I assumed you were taking it because of the hate on SneakShow. The problem with priest in dredge is they can still either T1/T2 you (depending who went first etc..) and if they only establish a bit of a presence (Imps/Flying jelly) they can still use Cabal/Dread to summon boatloads of tokens.

I think the other thing to note; is much like you don't mind RiP making your guys Meh, I think Cage turning off GSZ but insta-gibbing Dredge most of the time is worth it. I imagine you're speaking to Teeg and similar for storm. Certainly in Mav I would probably avoid Cage against storm.

[surgical]
Surgical is OK against storm; but mostly to cause bad brainstorm shuffles IME. If you're trying to eat their mana sources it only really works on Rite of Flame IIRC, as the others are instant speed or aren't cracked until they've played them all (Dark Rit, LED, Petal, CMox. [I've mostly played against TES. I find ANT to be a bit easier to mess with.]) For instance, if you surgical the first Rit, they cast the other in response if they have it. I like Surgical; I just find it to be very "I hope they get unlucky" I guess. Cage here says "You can't win with the grave", and Nihil almost says the same.

There could also be the issue of effectively increasing their storm by 2 (2 life + your spell), though I don't think this has come up for me before.

[macabre]
It'd be good to try again maybe; I didn't have a lot of luck with it the few times I tried it and dredge was able to power through it.

[Rest in Peace]
Certainly this is amazing; as even if they do anything to it; they reset the grave. My thing is utterly hating those moments when you have the golden hand, and they go off anyway. Sorcery Speed can be an issue and T2 can be a big issue. Maybe I've just had lucky Dredge opponents in the past; but getting T2'd with hate in hand is obnoxious.


Disclaimer:
* I doubt we'll convince each other; but I figured the discussion is probably beneficial for the person asking about grave hate.
* I'm also still mostly a Junk player. I used to use GSZ quite a bit in Mav, Nic Fit, or odd Junk builds; but don't usually at the moment; so this may skew my perspective despite trying to keep my brain in your position.


EDIT: I also bring in sweepers against Elves, but anything I can do lol. We have a good Elves player here and I've had a few games where the slightest mistake (thinking I'll get a T2 for instance) has costed me dearly.

[Nik842]

Cage hits Flashback in Dredge/Storm. Nuf said

I'm not a big fan of Surgical/Macabre. I've had dredge/reanimator play through them and they aren't reliable against Lands or similar. Nihil can be played around; but it's more difficult, and the cantrip fuels you into more hate. Nihil has random applications like fighting opposing KotRs, Loams, etc.. and is rarely bad by virtue of being one-sided and a cantrip. As you mentioned, I find the T1 answer important so I can get to bigger/better things

How do you feel about Relic of Progenitus over Nihil?

[tescrin]

My issue with Relic is much the same as Rest. Relic doesn't "count" until T2 and Rest does it better if you want that effect.

Relic is pretty good for pinging the grave of other GB decks (people have used it on me a bit) and it's obnoxious to get rid of because of the cantrip. Nihil, however, is a Tormod's Crypt with a cantrip, making it not only one sided (which i prefer so I can keep my tempo up) and you don't *have* to have the extra 1-mana to pop it; meaning I can tap out for Thalia, or whatever. Leaving a mana-up all the time is annoying if you don't have the ability to instant speed stuff.

I guess to put it another way; Nihil is optional, Rest isn't. Nihil can cost 1; which (you see in my previous posts) I've found to be important. IME Dredge will spill their grave so you have to pop it and then they'll try to recover; while you tax/waste their mana and race them to the finish. Hopefully you set up DRS, Scooze, or another gravehate while they are attempting to recover.


EDIT: This is also what i've found with the Sylvan Library vs. SDT and Bitterblossom vs. Lingering Souls arguments. They each have their moments; but I've really enjoyed Blossom/Library since they (while less versatile) are a tiny one time investment that builds a large effect over the course of the game. This leaves me more mana for equipping, casting through Thalia, or whatever.

[Nik842]

You know what, never mind. I seriously read Relic as removing one graveyard, not all.
I am now back to preferring Nihil.

[Koby]

This is where I like Crop Rotation into Bojuka Bog. In the decks that play the Dark Depths combo, this should be heavy consideration, since it allows Maverick to have a quick clock vs other combo decks. (well, increased chance at it), and you're probably bringing in Bog against Storm anyway. I also like the extra mana source in the SB against Tempo Delvers (with relevant ability).

[bakofried]

This is where I like Crop Rotation into Bojuka Bog. In the decks that play the Dark Depths combo, this should be heavy consideration, since it allows Maverick to have a quick clock vs other combo decks. (well, increased chance at it), and you're probably bringing in Bog against Storm anyway. I also like the extra mana source in the SB against Tempo Delvers (with relevant ability).

Would you board in Crop Rotation against TNN decks as another way to circumvent that SOB?

[tescrin]

This is where I like Crop Rotation into Bojuka Bog. In the decks that play the Dark Depths combo, this should be heavy consideration, since it allows Maverick to have a quick clock vs other combo decks. (well, increased chance at it), and you're probably bringing in Bog against Storm anyway. I also like the extra mana source in the SB against Tempo Delvers (with relevant ability).

I can get behind this. I didn't have tons of success with Crop + Knight, but at the time I was a lot less experienced. I think one of the times this plan screwed me was having Bog in hand and the sorcery speed allowed Dredge to just win. The nice bit about crop is you have 3 or so Knights + 1 Karakas + X Crops and you only need any one of those in hand against S&T/Reanimator and similar for Bog.

Even without Depths; this is a fine way to get quick value from Loam if that's your thing.

[oSeabass]

Even without Depths; this is a fine way to get quick value from Loam if that's your thing.

Does Loam even have a place in the deck? I could see building in a certain way that it adds some decent value, right now you would be recurring Wastelands, Fetchlands, Horizon Canopy, and lands vs Tempo Wasteland Decks. The dredge seems eh since I am running Eternal Witness to get whatever out of the bin if I need it. Shrinking Knight seems sad. Being able to have a card back in hand and then virtually 3 is nice against discard. I don't know... just doesn't seem to be enough value where I would probably rather have another Sylvan Library in most situations.

[Koby]

You want it vs Liliana and 3c mid range and zero basic Delver decks.

[iamajellydonut]

Shrinking Knight seems sad.

You shouldn't be too worried about this. Knight's main value is being an infinite Crop Rotation.

Also, you don't have to bring back all three, and you can usually grab things like Wastelands and fetchlands that get plopped back in the bin anyway.

[Madmankevinx]

Hey folks, longtime delver/stoneblade player here wondering what a good starting deck list would like like in a meta made up of a lot of burn, combo, and delver should look like?

[Jon]

See my list a few page back.


I have fat fingers and I am posting from my iPhone.

[bakofried]

http://www.knight-ware.com/ccg/magic...015legacy.html

6th place, Jacob Kory with Maverick. Interesting choices in the list. He scooped to a friend in the T8 (already had Seattle byes), but went 4-0-double I.D. in the Swiss. 61 people.

[Seraphix]

Hey folks, longtime delver/stoneblade player here wondering what a good starting deck list would like like in a meta made up of a lot of burn, combo, and delver should look like?

GWb with at least 3 basics and 4 Thalias main. For the board, Thoughtseize, Canonists, Containment Priests and 2 Teegs. Extra removal like Decay or Path for Delver. Maybe another copy of Jitte for Burn, or CoP Red/Warmth and a small e-tutor package if you want to go deep.

Something along these lines I think: http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1228697