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Thread: [Deck] GW/x Maverick

  1. #2021
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    Re: [DTB] GW/x Maverick

    Quote Originally Posted by rukcus View Post
    Any predictions on the metagame going forward (possibly past the GP this weekend)?

    We have a major rise on LED Dredge (as expected), NicFit and a little comeback of Hightide here in Germany. MUD is still under the radar, but is putting up results.

    I might say that Elves will be getting better and MUD might ascend to tier 1 or 1.5 in spite of stompy-variance.

    Aggro Loam seems well positioned right now.

  2. #2022
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    Re: [DTB] GW/x Maverick

    For Indy the SCG circuit seems like a good compass.

    I'd take those with a grain of salt though, as severel factors influenced the most recent results

    -> absence of pro-players due to other events (PT, GP)
    -> suboptimal lists
    -> and so on

    Another factor definitely is wether you've got any byes.
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  3. #2023
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    Re: [DTB] GW/x Maverick

    Quote Originally Posted by lordofthepit View Post
    Land + creature in graveyard means Goyf is safe from Bolt or Chain.

    Land + sorcery in graveyard means Goyf is safe from Bolt, but not Chain; land + instant in graveyard means Goyf is safe from Chain, but not Bolt. It seems pretty easy to accomplish(like no work whatsoever) unless your Burn opponent is randomly boarding into Faerie Macabre.
    I agree but what does goyf actually do against burn? You play it on turn 2 and he becomes the big beater that smashes or against burn he typically sits back to block hellspark or keldon. On turn 3, you play stoneforge fetch jitte and play it assuming you haven't missed a land drop. By then it's turn 4 and burn has either almost won or won by that point. You don't get goyf equipped until turn 5 unless you had the nut's with a hand containing Jitte. Burn consistently wins by turn 4, sometimes on turn 3, and if they kept the slowest hand ever they still win on turn 5. This matchup is very dependent on who goes first and i would rather have a Ooze to remove their hellspark elemental, make him a 3/3, and gain a life. He also has the potential to gain more life and become bigger than a goyf in this matchup. Goyf in this match up normally will only be a 4/5 at the most (land, creature, instant, sorcery).

  4. #2024
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    Re: [DTB] GW/x Maverick

    Quote Originally Posted by rukcus View Post
    I want to take a step back and think about Maverick going forward. I believe part of the reason why Maverick is so good in this metagame is in no part due to Stoneblade's popularity. Being that Stoneblade essentially became a Standard deck to Legacy deck overnight has something to do with the success Maverick has achieved in the time since SFM and Jace got the ban hammer in July.

    Should the trend remain, then Maverick is well positioned to continue succeeding. However, if Stoneblade and RUG tempo start to become inbred and lose their edge, then Maverick also stands to lose too.

    Any predictions on the metagame going forward (possibly past the GP this weekend)?
    I think blue will always have its place in the metagame and thus Maverick will retain it's place at the higher tiers beating those. I just can't factor the effect of continued Burn presence. I also don't know where the Storm players are with blue on the decline.

  5. #2025
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    Re: [DTB] GW/x Maverick

    Quote Originally Posted by Fade View Post
    I agree but what does goyf actually do against burn? You play it on turn 2 and he becomes the big beater that smashes or against burn he typically sits back to block hellspark or keldon. On turn 3, you play stoneforge fetch jitte and play it assuming you haven't missed a land drop. By then it's turn 4 and burn has either almost won or won by that point. You don't get goyf equipped until turn 5 unless you had the nut's with a hand containing Jitte. Burn consistently wins by turn 4, sometimes on turn 3, and if they kept the slowest hand ever they still win on turn 5. This matchup is very dependent on who goes first and i would rather have a Ooze to remove their hellspark elemental, make him a 3/3, and gain a life. He also has the potential to gain more life and become bigger than a goyf in this matchup. Goyf in this match up normally will only be a 4/5 at the most (land, creature, instant, sorcery).
    My burn matchups never play out like that. If they have to spend burn spells to remove my guys, they're not directed at my dome. If I have a X/4 blocker (Goyf or Knight), then they're almost certainly not goldfishing me by turn 4 (except with the most godlike draws).

    If I get a first turn Noble Hierarch, second turn Goyf or Knight (with a 4+ ass), third turn SFM into Jitte as you described, I consider myself an overwhelming favorite in the game against burn, as long as I've fetched a basic or two to play around POP. You'll lose some games but at least you're not cluttering your sideboard with crap like Aegis of Honor.

    Edit: Ooze is great in this matchup too. Just not on turns 2 or 3 where Goyf would survive and Ooze would not. It's your late game bomb to gain 2-3 life the turn it comes into play (so that you can put it out of burn range) and threaten to dominate the board from there.

  6. #2026
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    Re: [DTB] GW/x Maverick

    I don't necessarily think Tarmogoyf is good in this deck, but lordofthepit is correct about it in the burn match-up. Maverick has no guys that can just wall early on and Goyf does that. All our creatures trade when we go on defense, whereas Tarmogoyf can outlast any one of theirs.

    If the burn player is burning your guys, how are you losing? The only time I ever have trouble is when I have to start playing defense with all my dorks that are x/1 and x/2 and then I just lose based on tempo because you won't get back in the game when you do that.

    Oh and does anyone have premium or know the lists from Drew Levins article? The comments make them sound interesting and since they aren't his lists, but ones that actually one tournaments, I don't think SCG can stop people from posting them.

  7. #2027
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    Re: [DTB] GW/x Maverick

    Quote Originally Posted by lordofthepit View Post
    My burn matchups never play out like that. If they have to spend burn spells to remove my guys, they're not directed at my dome. If I have a X/4 blocker (Goyf or Knight), then they're almost certainly not goldfishing me by turn 4 (except with the most godlike draws).

    If I get a first turn Noble Hierarch, second turn Goyf or Knight (with a 4+ ass), third turn SFM into Jitte as you described, I consider myself an overwhelming favorite in the game against burn, as long as I've fetched a basic or two to play around POP. You'll lose some games but at least you're not cluttering your sideboard with crap like Aegis of Honor.

    Edit: Ooze is great in this matchup too. Just not on turns 2 or 3 where Goyf would survive and Ooze would not. It's your late game bomb to gain 2-3 life the turn it comes into play (so that you can put it out of burn range) and threaten to dominate the board from there.
    Realistic burn starts:
    Turn 1: GG - 2
    Turn 2: Hellspark Elemental - 7 (if no blockers)
    Turn 3: Chain Lightning, Unearth Hellspark - 15
    Turn 4: Any number of their cards can kill you in any configuration.

    Turn 1: Suspend Rift
    Turn 2: Keldon Marauders - 4
    Turn 3: Spike and Chain - 13
    Turn 4: Lightning Bolt, Fireblast - Dead + 1

    Throwing this out there the goyf could hypothetically block a creature to prevent some damage (if you had a fetch and they played an instant/sorcery) on turn 2 or 3 but then the burn player could just bolt the goyf to kill it if they think it's threatening (most of the time it isn't) Even if you do get two counters on Jitte a Price of Progress or a fireblast can take that 4 life away.

    Conclusion: I would rather play a Ooze where the one life I could potentially gain might be the deciding factor and let my KOTR and Terravore be there to block their dudes.

    Oh and does anyone have premium or know the lists from Drew Levins article? The comments make them sound interesting and since they aren't his lists, but ones that actually one tournaments, I don't think SCG can stop people from posting them.
    He just posted the recent list that won tampa (4c 'fearless'), Gerry T's Punishing Maverick, and then a standard GW list with Thalia's and no E-tutor sideboard.

  8. #2028
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    Re: [DTB] GW/x Maverick

    List #1 - some Euro GW maverick list with 3 Thalia
    List #2 - William Cao's 4 color "Fearless" build. The inclusion of Fires/Groves was weighed against its utility (1-2 sentences)
    List #3 - GerryT's list from the Invitational.

    RE: Burn
    I've often times used a fresh Mom to chump Keldon Mauraders. This is 100% the right play as taking 3 less damage is a big deal. Didn't win the game regardless, because Price of Progress shits on our head when we don't draw fetchlands, but that's how the game usually goes.
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    Re: [DTB] GW/x Maverick

    Quote Originally Posted by Jak View Post
    I don't necessarily think Tarmogoyf is good in this deck, but lordofthepit is correct about it in the burn match-up. Maverick has no guys that can just wall early on and Goyf does that. All our creatures trade when we go on defense, whereas Tarmogoyf can outlast any one of theirs.
    Don't get me wrong, I think Tarmogoyf is very overrated nowadays (except in RUG Tempo), and I don't even run it in my Maverick or Bant decks. But if I were deadset on playing Maverick, and Burn was a matchup I were worried about at an upcoming event, I would add a Goyf or two back in the main before I ate into my sideboard space, since it's also nice to have against something like RUG Tempo.

    Maybe that's the misunderstanding I'm having with Fade. By no means am I under the impression that Burn can't beat a Tarmogoyf. But it improves the percentages enough that I don't consider it more than slightly unfavorable (if at all).

    Now, if you're planning to take Maverick to a local shop, and your meta is flooded with burn, certainly the correct decision would be to play your 4 Leyline of Sanctity + CoP: Red in your sideboard.

  10. #2030

    Re: [DTB] GW/x Maverick

    How are you getting enough creatures in your graveyard fast enough to gain life from Ooze? Isn't your best case scenario turn 2 Runeclaw Bear, don't block, turn 3 Healing Salve? And even that seems unlikely.
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  11. #2031

    Re: [DTB] GW/x Maverick

    What do you usually board out/in vs:

    1) uw sfm
    2) rug delver
    3) dredge
    4) mirror
    5) burn

  12. #2032
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    Re: [DTB] GW/x Maverick

    Quote Originally Posted by sauce View Post
    What do you usually board out/in vs:

    1) uw sfm
    2) rug delver
    3) dredge
    4) mirror
    5) burn
    Using this sideboard:
    2 Choke
    2 Path to Exile
    2 Ethersworn Canonist
    2 E-tutor
    1 O-ring
    1 Serenity
    1 Phyrexian metamorph
    1 Tormod's Crypt
    1 Bojuka Bog
    1 Maze of Ith
    1 Sword of Light and Shadow

    UW Stoneblade
    -2 Noble Hierarch
    -1 Sword of Fire/Ice
    -2 Sword to Plowshares
    +1 Maze of Ith
    +1 Sword of Light & Shadow
    +1 Oblivion Ring
    +2 Choke

    Removing Hierarch slows you down, but also increases the threat density of the deck. This is important since more of our creatures are now going to be picked off by StP/PtE + SCM on the rebound. Stoneblade also brings in Wrath, which the mana dorks work against us by committing more to the board.

    RUG Delver
    +2 Path to Exile
    +1 Maze of Ith
    -1 Qasali Pridemage
    -1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
    -1 Stoneforge Mystic or Qasali #2 or Gaddock Teeg

    Removing the slower threats for more removal allows us to get to the late game. They key is to dispatch Delver of Secrets before it takes us over. Submerge and Mind Harness are also considerations, which is why leaving at least 1 Pridemage in would be a good idea.

    Dredge
    +1 Bojuka Bog
    +1 Tormod's Crypt
    +2 E-Tutor
    +2 Path to Exile
    -1 Elspeth
    -1 Thrun
    -3 Qasali Pridemage
    -1 Mother of Runes

    Removal for Narco/Ichorid, extra G/Y nukers, and taking out the slower threats. Mother has limited applications, and Pridemage has no application aside from beatdown. The games you win will be with Ooze and Knight eating their yard. Watch out for Firestorm.

    Burn
    -1 Elspeth
    -1 Thrun
    -1 Terravore (if they aren't running Fetchland builds)
    -1 Karakas
    +2 Path to Exile (creature heavier versions)
    +2 Ethersworn Canonist

    Slow them down with Canonist and extra removal. Conserve your life total. Fetch basics. Save Ooze for when you can get a one or more activations before it gets insta-killed; preferably eating Hellspark Elemental. Gaddock Teeg keeps them playing fair. Scryb Ranger can help reduce the susceptibility to Price of Progress. Activating Jitte and not being exposed to Smash to Smithereens is a good strategy. StP your own guys to counter their Bolts

    Mirror
    +2 Path to Exile
    +1 Bojuka Bog
    +1 Maze of Ith
    +1 Sword of Light & Shadow
    -1 Sword of Fire/Ice
    -1 Gaddock Teeg
    -1 Karakas
    -1 Stoneforge Mystic
    -1 Batterskull

    Last card really depends on being on the play or draw. I prefer to always be on the draw with this deck in the mirror for extra cards. The only relevant creatures that you need to kill are Mother of Runes and Knight of the Reliquary. Everything else is a wash. Your life total doesn't matter, so don't bother making blocks. Don't trade Jitte with their Jitte unless you can return it with Witness. SoLS serves a role player by ignoring their Moms/Knights/removal. Don't fire off KotR -> Bog until you absolutely need to. Don't Wasteland them obliviously - use it with purpose; you'll need the extra mana. Flyers are important in this matchup. Elspeth provides necessary Jump to go for the kill. Always look out for a potential to connect with an alpha strike. Expect Maze of Ith when attacking, and be prepared for it. Don't walk into Aven Mindcensor. Be wary of untapped mana sources with no main phase play.

    To All
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  13. #2033
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    Re: [DTB] GW/x Maverick

    I may have been doing it wrong but I always boarded in the chokes against RUG Delver. If it resolves about the only thing they have for it is the 1-2 Krosan Grips in the board and Dazing a spell to return an island to their hand to replay it. I board out the Elspeth, Pridemages, SoLaS, and a stoneforge to bring in Paths, Chokes, SoFaI and Maze against them.

    Thalia:
    For the past few days I have tested two Thalias in the main deck to see if some matches improve over others. From what I can tell, it screws up RUG Delver unless they have a quick removal spell and it improves any storm match up. Other than that I'm not sure it does anything for other decks. Does anyone else have experience with Thalia in their maindeck? How has it been for you?

  14. #2034

    Re: [DTB] GW/x Maverick

    and what do you suggest against rock / junk?

    anyone has tested the feasibility of using thalia + pws (Elspeth, Garruk)?

    Quote Originally Posted by rukcus View Post
    Using this sideboard:
    2 Choke
    2 Path to Exile
    2 Ethersworn Canonist
    2 E-tutor
    1 O-ring
    1 Serenity
    1 Phyrexian metamorph
    1 Tormod's Crypt
    1 Bojuka Bog
    1 Maze of Ith
    1 Sword of Light and Shadow

    UW Stoneblade
    -2 Noble Hierarch
    -1 Sword of Fire/Ice
    -2 Sword to Plowshares
    +1 Maze of Ith
    +1 Sword of Light & Shadow
    +1 Oblivion Ring
    +2 Choke

    Removing Hierarch slows you down, but also increases the threat density of the deck. This is important since more of our creatures are now going to be picked off by StP/PtE + SCM on the rebound. Stoneblade also brings in Wrath, which the mana dorks work against us by committing more to the board.

    RUG Delver
    +2 Path to Exile
    +1 Maze of Ith
    -1 Qasali Pridemage
    -1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
    -1 Stoneforge Mystic or Qasali #2 or Gaddock Teeg

    Removing the slower threats for more removal allows us to get to the late game. They key is to dispatch Delver of Secrets before it takes us over. Submerge and Mind Harness are also considerations, which is why leaving at least 1 Pridemage in would be a good idea.

    Dredge
    +1 Bojuka Bog
    +1 Tormod's Crypt
    +2 E-Tutor
    +2 Path to Exile
    -1 Elspeth
    -1 Thrun
    -3 Qasali Pridemage
    -1 Mother of Runes

    Removal for Narco/Ichorid, extra G/Y nukers, and taking out the slower threats. Mother has limited applications, and Pridemage has no application aside from beatdown. The games you win will be with Ooze and Knight eating their yard. Watch out for Firestorm.

    Burn
    -1 Elspeth
    -1 Thrun
    -1 Terravore (if they aren't running Fetchland builds)
    -1 Karakas
    +2 Path to Exile (creature heavier versions)
    +2 Ethersworn Canonist

    Slow them down with Canonist and extra removal. Conserve your life total. Fetch basics. Save Ooze for when you can get a one or more activations before it gets insta-killed; preferably eating Hellspark Elemental. Gaddock Teeg keeps them playing fair. Scryb Ranger can help reduce the susceptibility to Price of Progress. Activating Jitte and not being exposed to Smash to Smithereens is a good strategy. StP your own guys to counter their Bolts

    Mirror
    +2 Path to Exile
    +1 Bojuka Bog
    +1 Maze of Ith
    +1 Sword of Light & Shadow
    -1 Sword of Fire/Ice
    -1 Gaddock Teeg
    -1 Karakas
    -1 Stoneforge Mystic
    -1 Batterskull

    Last card really depends on being on the play or draw. I prefer to always be on the draw with this deck in the mirror for extra cards. The only relevant creatures that you need to kill are Mother of Runes and Knight of the Reliquary. Everything else is a wash. Your life total doesn't matter, so don't bother making blocks. Don't trade Jitte with their Jitte unless you can return it with Witness. SoLS serves a role player by ignoring their Moms/Knights/removal. Don't fire off KotR -> Bog until you absolutely need to. Don't Wasteland them obliviously - use it with purpose; you'll need the extra mana. Flyers are important in this matchup. Elspeth provides necessary Jump to go for the kill. Always look out for a potential to connect with an alpha strike. Expect Maze of Ith when attacking, and be prepared for it. Don't walk into Aven Mindcensor. Be wary of untapped mana sources with no main phase play.

    To All
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  15. #2035
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    Re: [DTB] GW/x Maverick

    Quote Originally Posted by maktus View Post
    and what do you suggest against rock / junk?

    anyone has tested the feasibility of using thalia + pws (Elspeth, Garruk)?
    Junk/Rock is a weaker version of GW Maverick:
    -1 SoFI
    -2 Noble Hierarch
    +1 SoLS
    +1 Maze of Ith
    +1 Bojuka Bog (for green versions - Goyf/KotR)

    Maybe O-rings if you see any planeswalkers.

    Against Nic-Fit:
    ??? Pray.
    Last edited by Koby; 03-08-2012 at 01:38 AM.
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  16. #2036
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    Re: [DTB] GW/x Maverick

    Quote Originally Posted by maktus View Post
    and what do you suggest against rock / junk?

    anyone has tested the feasibility of using thalia + pws (Elspeth, Garruk)?
    Thalia is fine in our deck with planeswalkers. It doesn't hinder us too much and I found that it didn't stop me from GSZing for anything that I wanted. Sometimes you have to wait one turn to play it but that didn't happen too often.

  17. #2037
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    Re: [DTB] GW/x Maverick

    Quote Originally Posted by Fade View Post
    Thalia:
    For the past few days I have tested two Thalias in the main deck to see if some matches improve over others. From what I can tell, it screws up RUG Delver unless they have a quick removal spell and it improves any storm match up. Other than that I'm not sure it does anything for other decks. Does anyone else have experience with Thalia in their maindeck? How has it been for you?
    Thalia's been stirring up a lot of discussion in the Death and Taxes threads, but she's great in that deck because of Aether Vial, SFM, and 4 Karakas MD. While Mav borrows some things from DnT, I'm not convinced that she has a spot in this deck or SB. Mav runs considerably more non-creature spells, and while it trips up many decks, without a means of reliably fetching her out, I think she'll mostly come up as too little too late.

    Thalia shines in the early game, but loses power as the game extends into the later turns. Gaddock and Canonist are still our best options against combo; as far as RUG is concerned, Terravore is much better. Makes Tarmogoyf look silly.

  18. #2038
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    Re: [DTB] GW/x Maverick

    Quote Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning View Post
    Thalia's been stirring up a lot of discussion in the Death and Taxes threads, but she's great in that deck because of Aether Vial, SFM, and 4 Karakas MD. While Mav borrows some things from DnT, I'm not convinced that she has a spot in this deck or SB. Mav runs considerably more non-creature spells, and while it trips up many decks, without a means of reliably fetching her out, I think she'll mostly come up as too little too late.

    Thalia shines in the early game, but loses power as the game extends into the later turns. Gaddock and Canonist are still our best options against combo; as far as RUG is concerned, Terravore is much better. Makes Tarmogoyf look silly.
    I think this is a fair assessment, I just waned to see what other people thought of her. After play testing the Esper Blade match I asked my opponent how Thalia was against him and he said he would rather see Thalia than any other two drop we had. This being said I am considering putting Teeg main and adding the third pridemage again.

  19. #2039

    Re: [DTB] GW/x Maverick

    Quote Originally Posted by Fade View Post
    I think this is a fair assessment, I just waned to see what other people thought of her. After play testing the Esper Blade match I asked my opponent how Thalia was against him and he said he would rather see Thalia than any other two drop we had. This being said I am considering putting Teeg main and adding the third pridemage again.
    I saw some lists using thalia in the md but for now I'm only using her when it is really necessary. I use 3 in sb in place of canonist and chokes.

    Thalia can also be useful against nic fit.
    Last edited by maktus; 03-08-2012 at 02:44 PM.

  20. #2040

    Re: [DTB] GW/x Maverick

    I don't think I've ever had a problem with Burn, using a deck that runs 4 StoP and a bunch of creatures with 5 or more power, plus Ooze and Jitte. I also SB COP: Red for game 2, which obviously makes things a little easier.

    Against Nic Fit, I keep reading here and on that thread that it just stomps Maverick. I've only ever played against it on Cockatrice, but I don't really find that to be the case. You just have to save your removal for their 6 drops, and bring in Pithing Needle against Deed. In my limited experience, that has been enough.

    My problem is dealing with UW Stoneblade. I think I'm 1-3-2 in matches won every time I've played against an iteration of that deck (each match was against a different build).

    This is my current list (with Thrun at the top of my want list).

    26 CREATURES
    3 Noble Heirarch
    1 Birds of Paradise
    3 Mother of Runes
    3 Stoneforge Mystic
    2 Scavenging Ooze
    2 Scryb Ranger
    2 Qasali Pridemage
    1 Gaddock Teeg
    1 Thalia, Guardian on Thraben
    4 Knight of the Reliquary
    2 Aven Mindcensor
    1 Eternal Witness
    1 Terravore

    13 NONCREATURE
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    1 Path to Exile
    3 Green Sun's Zenith
    2 Sylvan Library
    1 Umezawa's Jitte
    1 Sword of Light and Shadow
    1 Sword of Body and Mind

    21 LAND
    3 Savannah
    1 Forest
    1 Plains
    1 Dryad Arbor
    4 Windswept Heath
    2 Misty Rainforest
    1 Marsh Flats
    3 Wasteland
    2 Horizon Canopy
    1 Karakas
    1 Tower of the Magistrate
    1 Maze of Ith

    SIDEBOARD
    1 Bojuka Bog
    1 Batterskull
    1 Path to Exile
    1 Life from the Loam
    3 Choke
    2 Enlightened Tutor
    COP: Red
    Stony Silence
    Pithing Needle
    Ratchet Bomb
    Ethersworn Canonist
    Phyrexian Metamorph


    What are the most important cards against UW Blade? I just saw someone suggest you side out Heirarch, which hadn't occurred to me yet. I know I Thrun will help, but I'm not convinced that one card is going to change the matchup from unfavorable to favorable. Is there anything else I'm missing? Also, how do you keep from going to time. I've gone 3-0-2 at a tournament because for some reason I'm incapable of beating UW twice in less than 50 minutes (if at all).

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