I remember when Ajani, Caller of the Pride was spoiled in M13 this summer a lot of Maverick posters were excited about the card as they saw it as a cheaper and more aggressive planeswalker alternative to Elspeth, Knight-Errant.
Did the Maverick thread ever come to its own conclusion on Ajani? Is it too slow or are there simply better cards to be using (like Elspeth)? I did a 'Search Thread' of all posts mentioning Ajani 3.0 and most of the posts I saw were posted around the time Ajani was spoiled just mentioned a keen interest in testing the card, so I haven't seen anyone post any definitive thoughts on Ajani in Maverick.
I'm curious as to how people would evaluate Ajani 3.0 now in Maverick, as the deck is currently under renovations to strengthen its matchup against UW Miracles. I know that ideas of using Equipment and planeswalkers as strategies relying less heavily on actual creature cards have been spread around, so I figured I'd ask if Ajani would be a good planeswalker alternative to fighting Miracles.
He doesn't build a board state after a terminus like Garruk or Elspeth does, although he seems playable in a aggro matchup (mayhap the mirror?), the equipment are there to protect Gaddock Teeg.
Originally Posted by iatee
Agreed... I've played with Ajani 3.0 a little bit in the deck and while he can blow out the opponent if you can jump and doublestrike a protected Knight, he is worse against Miracles than the other options (Elspeth and Garruk), because they can make tokens after a Terminus. Ajani's +1 is not much good when you're trying to recover, -3 is expensive to have to do more than once, and his ultimate just folds to a Terminus or Supreme Verdict (but honestly, you're not likely to ultimate with him).
@Jiaozy
This is a nice repost, and although I agree with most parts, I have some questions? This is not to provoke you, I just would like you to clarify me some things.
1) Path to Exile... why you describe it as sub optimal and still use it on SB
2) Sylvan Safekeeper... I do think is a bad card vs Canadian cause of the Firespout/Pyroclasm they use. Also vs control is as useless and vs mirror is a bad Mother cause it doesn't give evasion. So its only use is vs Miracles, then why not just run another Teeg. He can be used also vs random storms or high tides. And Teeg also can attack (yes I attack with Teeg vs miracles, if its my only creature cause I want to put them on a clock and not just sit around and watch the turns go by) more effectively (2/2 vs 1/1).
3) Garruk vs Elspeth... well the damage between the two of them is not 2/2 wolves vs 1/1 soldiers. Actually on first attack is 2/2 wolf vs 4/4 soldier with fly. So Garruk is better only by Turn 4, cause the clock damage goes:
T1: 2 dam vs 4 dam
T2: 4 vs 4
T3: 6 vs 4
T4: 8 vs 4
And thats only if they don't play Snappies or Mystics.
I have played Garruk's ultimate only once, and that was vs mirror. Your point for using ultimate vs miracles only weakeness your arguement on playtesting cause of Rest in Peace. A discussion should be made if KoTR is still good vs this match up, cause usually is a 2/2 for 3cc.
Garruk is better only for mana issues. If you can play Elspeth (which is really difficult), she is better.
4) Tormod's Crypt... vs Canadian, really? I think only Bog to replace Karakas (I play 2 Karkas) is solid.
5) Pithing Needle... is it better than Phyrexian Revoker? Especially against miracles, you side in needles (that don't attck), sylvan safekeeper (that attacks for 1 dam), Teegs (people say that he doesn'r att). So that clock seems really slow. And one more thing... Miracles, and control, play disenchant (that is the reason I believe mystic package is bad ). At least revoker will deal some damage, needle will just sit their. My arguement is that if you side in artifacts and want to make those 2 disenchants relevant, at least try to gain something.
Path to Exile is fine in the board, because it is worse than Swords to Plowshares but still needed vs tribal.
Sylvan Safekeeper is alot better than Mother of Runes in all matchups where spot removal is relevant (70% of all decks), if you dont know why, try playing it a bit. Against Miracles a Teeg with Sylvan Safekeeper out is a WON GAME. And they can both be found with zenith. I dont get it, stop arguing, start playing it.
Attacking with Teeg into U/W without protection seems ... I dont know, this just makes me not want to continue this post.
Last edited by useL; 11-26-2012 at 06:36 AM.
No problems, I'm more than willing to share and help!
I already addressed some of your concern in my previous postsSafekeeper is godly against Miracle because you can fetch both it and Gaddock with Zenith and start protecting the Teeg right away, with no need to wait for summoning sickness to go away.
Against other decks like BUG, Rock and the mirror, he's pretty good MD because it's an additional answer to Pulse, Demise, StP, Vindicate, Decay and all the spot removal that's heavily played in all MDs.
Post SB it might come out, but in this meta its pretty sick.
Attacking with Teeg against Miracle?
REALLY?
You know that they can flash in a Snapcaster or Vendilion, kill him and nuke your board with just 3 to 4 mana on your turn if you do so, right?
Having Teeg + Safekeeper means they can't StP him as long as you have lands in play and as long as you have lands in play they can't cast Miracles and you're in a winning position, why would you wanto to try and lose when they have NO END GAME?
No Jace, no Terminus, no Supreme Verdict, no Elspeth, no Entreat and yet you want to try and lose by unlocking half their deck by attacking?That is assuming they don't have any kind of removal, either.
Because a single StP on you lone creature you tried to pump would bring the damage race to:
T1: 0 VS 0
T2: 2 VS 0
T3: 6 VS 4
T4: 12 VS 8
That's not taking into account cards like Sulfur Elemental and Dread of Night that already annihilate half you deck, so why add even more cards that are susceptible to that hate, when you have other cards that are just as good if not better.It must be the Miracle player that's doing something wrong because the thing the have to answer is GADDOCK, not your Graveyard.
I'm not really sure why any sub par and above Miracle player would side in Rest in Peace against Maverick when all they need is an answer to Gaddock that bypasses Sylvan Safekeeper.You have cards that are terrible to side out in this MU (Qasali, Safekeeper and Garruk) and keeping their threat at 1/1, avoiding Ancient Grudge's flashback and shrinking an ealry Goyf is much better, from what I've seen, than playing vanilla 1/1s and 2/2s.Yes, yes it is.
A LOT better.The point is that if they take out Needle, my Jitte or Libraries are out of danger!
Also, why would you want a fast clock when all you need is Teeg + protection to lock them out of the game?
Once you have a Teeg that is protected from StP they CANNOT win in any way nor remove your board and you're free to land all the Knights you want to win in a couple of swings, assuming you're up against a good player that won't side in RiP against you because it does next to nothing and Grafdigger is more relevant against you.
Even without a 10/10 knight, you're still playing 6 exalteds they CANNOT remove and once you have 2 or 3 you can swing with little dudes for 4-5 damge and win in 4-5 turns.
Side note, you SHOULD NOT evaluate cards based on what might or might not your opponent play, because saying that SfM package is bad because of Disenchant is like saying that Knight of the Reliquary is bad because of Swords to Plowshares or Force of Will is bad because of Abrupt Decay: senseless.
Once upon a time, when Counterspell and Ancestral Recall were still living in the Garden, they ate the fruit from the Tree of Making Noobs Cry.
And it tasted good.
But now all blue cards must suffer for their sin.
Most of the decks packing dread of night tend to be combo decks that you'd board planeswalkers out against anyways, just sayin :P
The decks playing Sulfur Elemental (RUG/UR and apparently Miracles), resolving a walker period is good, be it elspeth or garruk, as they have few options of killing a walker through our creatures.
Other than that, your analysis is pretty on the dot
@Jiaozy
Thx for the reply, it was detailed with good arguements. I will try the sylvan safekeeper but as I understand we are basically on different paths on the miracle game. I'm trying to put them on a clock, when you are trying to make a solid board state. Just keep in mind in your future tournaments that todays UWmiracles use detention spheres and baneslayer angels. They have adapted to Teeg much more than this thread gives credit.
Also no UWmiracles is playing Sulfur Elemental or Dread of Night. I'm just saying that Garruk, first turn brings a 2/2 wolf, when Elspeth improves your clock by far. I feel better seeing this match as a race than "cancel your play-style" and thats why certain builts differ.
Detention Sphere is just as easily negated by Sylvan Safekeeper as well as Mother of Runes (not to mention Karakas).
Baneslayer Angel can also be beaten using Maze of Ith, however I tend to board that out in this matchup. BSA is definitely a trump for Miracles here.
West side
Find me on MTGO as Koby or rukcus -- @MTGKoby on Twitter
* Maverick is dead. Long live Maverick!
My Legacy stream
My MTG Blog - Work in progress
"Detention Sphere is just as easily negated by Sylvan Safekeeper as well as Mother of Runes"
--> Yes I know, I'm just saying this to emphasize that they bring more spot removal (for mothers, safekeeper and lonely teeg), that is also good against needles.
"Baneslayer Angel can also be beaten using Maze of Ith"
--> Yes, but as you said people tend to bring Maze out (or not playing at all in MB), so we should keep that in mind for G2/G3. Also Baneslayer nulifies the "can't win" arguement when Teeg+MoR are in play. They can win and really fast actually.
Planeswalkers don't help much against BSA too, so I'm not sure what argument you're making by mentioning it. The best way to beat Angel is STP, and that's clearly not the best way to beat the matchup.
Here's an interesting suggestion against Miracles - Luminarch Ascension. Thoughts?
West side
Find me on MTGO as Koby or rukcus -- @MTGKoby on Twitter
* Maverick is dead. Long live Maverick!
My Legacy stream
My MTG Blog - Work in progress
That's an interesting suggestion, the problem I see is that they often bring in Disenchant effects in anticipation of Library/Choke anyway, plus many Miracle decks have EE somewhere in their 75.
Compared to Walkers the Ascension is way easier to handle and does not put immediate pressure on the opponent. Upside is that it is easier to cast under Thalia and castable under Teeg. If testing proves positive I could see 1-2 pieces in addition to Walkers in the SB in the right meta, but not over them. I currently have a flex slot in my SB (Crucible in my last tournament), so I might give it a try.
As far as Maze of Ith is concerned: I run one in the SB, and one of the Main reasons I do so is that I can board out all my removal vs Control and still not be totally fucked by a random Manplan from their SB or an unexpected aggresive Stoneforge Mystic draw.
But it's not like they're bringing in more than two Disenchants. If they get your Luminarch with a Disenchant, then they're not getting your Sylvan Library or something.
Also, I just want to raise the point that Deathrite Shaman is very good if anyone is willing to come to the dark side of Maverick (Junk). We have Abrupt Decay!
-Matt
@Koby
"Planeswalkers don't help much against BSA too, so I'm not sure what argument you're making by mentioning it. The best way to beat Angel is STP, and that's clearly not the best way to beat the matchup."
-->Plz don't twist what I write. Lets make it a positive discussion than try to find who is right and who is wrong. The BSA plan is something that UWmiracles use (and nobody have said it until now), so keeping the Maze of Ith (or even adding it back, from those who cut it) is something to consider.
-->Food for thought... If we play 2/3PWs, 2 Sylvan Libraries, 1BoP+3Hierarchs, 1 Sylvan Safekeepers (don't att cause of snappy+Clique arguement), 2/3 Teegs (same), 4 MoR (same), 3 Needles then how terrible Terminus actually is? We are talking about 50% of our deck irrelevant to it.
@sdematt
Can you plz post a list or send it to my email (kohulk@hotmail.com). I also like Deathrite Shaman, but have found that Junk weakens Thalia.
Regarding BSA, you can beat it with Mother of Runes and Scryb Ranger.
Or you just keep in 2-3 Swords to Plowshares, which is acceptable if you think that they might board in some kind of creature ( Clique, Sulfur Elemental, Baneslayer ). Otherwise there is still the manadenial plan with Wasteland and Choke / Armageddon / Tsunami which should prevent UW from getting to 5 mana.
Conclusion: There are many ways to deal with Banslayer angel, but not so many to deal with mass removal. Better focus on that before you come up with some kind of weird plan to beat a possible Baneslayer.
Humphrey is always correct.
What advice would you give to a maverick player like me who operates in a meta game where combo runs rampant? Belcher, storm, enchantress, elves, and sneak and show are just a few of the decks in my meta. My record is pretty abysmal, and I'm so desperate I'm even thinking of adding glowriders to my main. I'm not sure if that would help enough, especially since it costs 3 and would likely come down too late. Would aven mindcensor help me out at all? Oh, and if that wasn't bad enough, there's at least two people that play U/W miracles too. My mainboard is pretty standard fare, but I'm still running the slow stoneforge package with sword of fire and ice + sword of light and shadow. My sideboard looks something like this:
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Path to Exile (likely should be oblivion ring)
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Armageddon
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
What can I do to improve my match-ups against the decks I've mentioned? Is it a lost cause?
Don't play maverick.
And why are you playing armageddon???.
The easy response to your question would be don't play maverick, which I think is also a cowardly response that does absolutely nothing to help you out or improve the deck overall and in your meta game. Playing glowrider isnt going to get it done and if you feel it is too slow at 3 mana then aven mindcensor is also going to be too slow at 3 mana. Being in such a combo heavy meta i do think the stroneforge package is way to slow. Without seeing your maindeck its tough to say what i would personally change but i would probably start by adding a Teeg. Belcher is going to be a tough match up no matter what cards you put in the sideboard and i think that is an accepted fact as maverick players. I would recommend at least 2 of those path to exiles become oblivion ring like you pointed out to help out vs show and tell they could also be decent vs miracles and maybe enchantress which i admittedly dont have much experience playing against. Storm is going to be tough as well but could be helped by possibly playing mindbreak traps which would also help vs belcher. You dont mention any graveyard based decks you could potentially replace the macabres with silence which would help with miracles, storm, and belcher on the play at least. Cannonist, Linvala and Jitte are all good vs elves along with the spot removal and more copies of any of those would help out. I think Armageddon is a fine card vs miracles and maybe even enchantress but like i said i have no experience playing against that deck so i could be totally wrong on that.
Its not really a coward's response to say play another deck. One of the fundamentals of tournament play is to play the meta and adapt.
Some decks typically fall out of flavor because of the meta, i.e. merfolk goblins. But when certain decks come back, other decks also make a resurgence.
The rock, paper, scissor rule still applies regardless.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
