Terravore/Rhox War Monk are both very good as GSZ targets.
Here's my current build:
(22)
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Windswept Heath
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Savannah
1 Tropical Island
2 Forest
1 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Mental Misstep
1 Maze of Ith
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Qasali Pride-Mage
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Jitte
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Eternal Witness
1 Trygon Predator
1 Rhox Warmonk
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Beast Within (NPH green Vindicate)
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
1 Rafiq of the Many
SB// (so many options...)
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Choke
3 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Serenity
1 Duelling Grounds
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Oblivion Ring
Seems a little too soft to combo for my liking. I had never thought of the single blue splash before reading the primer so thank-you for that. I was stuck in splash for Brainstorm/Force/Stifle instead of this more modest one. Never played with Warmonk/Rafiq before and I'm interested to see how it goes. Edit: I find the lack of Tarmogoyf's disturbing...
I have, in the past, run 1-2 Enlightened Tutors in the main-deck to help fetch-up equipment as well as MD Ethersworn Cannonist or Phyrexian Revokers. It would also make more space in the board for other Tutor targets or more specific non-tutorable SB cards. Cannonist with Mental Misstep back-up seems like the best way for a non-blue deck who wants velocity - to steal a term - to fight combo.
Sword of Feast and Famine is better than people think. Most blockers are green in Legacy (read: Tarmogoyf) and Sword solves that. If you're going to play a fair deck you have to do all that you possibly can to put on a fast clock. With Mental Misstep in the MD I'm less worried about StP than I normally would be so Light and Shadow becomes more of a narrow option in my opinion.
I think Light and Shadow is better in the Vial builds where you can take full advantage of the recursion. Returning and Vialing in before your next untap step is great. Likewise, Feast and Famine is better in the GSZ versions because you can make your first main phase plays, then GSZ or cast more threats in your second main as well. Also I feel that F&F allows me to interact with their resources (their hand) in a way I can't otherwise.
I'm sure I'm being too cute with GSZ targets as well but I have a lot of testing to do and few opportunities to do it so I'm trying to take good notes as I play with so many different (but overlapping) options. I'm a big fan of Troll Ascetic in certain M/Us. The mirror, Zoo, random aggro, Goblins. Swinging in, shrouded with equipment is an absolute beating. How do people feel about Xantid Swarm as a possible one-of in board? I still feel like flyers are pretty strong in Legacy still and he would boost the effectiveness of GSZ for sure. I'm not sure what the meta-game's going to look like with Mental Misstep asking people to re-evaluate their deck building.
I just realized with the blue splash and Knight of the Reliquary I can use Academy Ruins...I wonder how that can be taken advantage of...hmm.
Batterskull also looks like a sweet sweet card for this deck. I want second wave power and that card has it in spades and it's tutorable.
Monk is imo not worth splashing for, as it is clearly not needed in the zoo mu, and the very rare burn mu is almost acceptable without it. Can't say if it swings the goblins mu enough to become interesting, but I would assume it swings the merfolk mu just as much making it again - not worth it.
Rafiq I have been debating though, as it wouldn't even need a tropical in the manabase to be playable. But then again, I haven't really ever wanted to be able to fetch up him so..
My issue with terravore is that it's vulnerable to relics etc, and Kotr is just the better target most of the time. I have played cold-eyed selkie though, as a GSZ target and it was actually pretty good. In my testing though, it ran into the same problem terravore did: GSZ for 3 just wanted Kotr instead, so why bother?
Terravore have their time when fighting opponent KotR's or with Protections or just chump blocks like goblins(Trample over) - being one of we don't have to afraid of Relics, about RWM - its best creature against all tempo decks when we are racing. One tropical MD isn't scary against islandwalk (merfolks) and it helps to hardcast your toolbox from hand, about SoFaF its good, but doesn't bring CA when both players playing in topdeck mode, also protection from white is very needed (almost more than vs green) to avoid StPs. About Metal Misstep testings shows how good they are, and how many of them fit to deck.
SoLS is very good in any Junk MU - discard isn't so pain if we can bring them back - trick with eternal witness which is one of the best from toolbox. I think Xantid Swarm is bad idea. Playing vs Counterspells isn't hard we just have 26 treads, 4 stp and 20 lands :]
I am so happy about this thread. Thank you Fatal.
I am thinking and playing my own version of this deck which is great fun to play. My first idea was that I want to run Dark Confidant AND Green Sun's Zenith apart from other staff. It souds to good not to run - keeps manacost of the deck pretty low. I wasnt sure wheather I want to run Aether Vial, Mox, mana critters or some combination of these. Everyone told me that Vial is akward with GSZ and I dont have good experience with mox as 3 of. I never drew one. Always none and then 2-3.
Vial has its obvious advantages. Vial + dark confidan= drawin another AV one doesent hurt too much. Since everyone complains about drawin multiple...
I wanted to run Mangara of Corondor (2 of) but I am not so sure anymore.
Would you be so kind and give my some advice how to finish this build?
4 Dark Confidant
3 Mother of Runes
2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Quasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Scryb Ranger
- 19
4 GSZ
4 STP
1 Jitte
1 SoFI
- 29
lands
4 Windswepth Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Dryad Arbor
- 15
I guess the card selection is obvious. I will run 21 lands depending on what I add so this is not the case. My point is:
- should I add 4 Aether Vials? Is it so weird with GSZ?
- 4 Noble Hierarch or Birds of Paradise?
- if I add Aether Vial should I run 2 Mangara and 2 karakas? It's a game with Quirion...
- is wise to run 4 vials AND 4 Noble Hierarch?
- I can add extra mother, stoneforge, tarmogoyf, eqipment...
- I want to add some more creatures anyway - should it be: Terravore, Weathered Wayfarer, Aven Mindcensor or even Rhox Warmonk, Trygon Predator? (with one tropical in main)
- 1 Elspeth, KE, SDT, Sylvan Library?
- Or anything else....
Thank you all!
Ok, let's analyze some cards interaction, and choose what is the best:
AEther Vial + Confidant
This interaction is well known, used in most BW Tempo decks alone with Hymn to Tourach/Thoughtseize (to take out removal mostly which is pain, so Mother of Runes and against combo helps also)
So conclusion - OK good interaction.
AEther Vial + GSZ
Those one, aren't great together. Let's go to some example - starting Vial brings advantage in turn 3-5 which is basically enabler for creatures in hand. Right CREATURES not sorceries never bring creature from vial using zenith. Green Sun Zenith's are good only with first turn mana drop, and on middle-late game, without that Hierarch/BoP/Dryad they're just one turn slower creature this mean that u have to fight goyfs vs your hierarch, or your goyfs vs KotR - this isn't rather fair fight :] - Bringing Vial to deck u make more death draws - Confidant can help but speaking true - he never lives to long.. more consistant deck is better. Also turn 3 Confidant from Vial isn't terrify.
Conclusion - Not good interaction.
GSZ + Confidant
This is very nice deck tech - changing avg mana cost in deck we still keeps consistance of creatures which can be tread for opponent - no more speech needed its very good.
So what to do ?
First answer yourself on one question - do you want more controlish version "Junk" like with discard or middle-range beatdown-GW/x Maverick is the second one..
Moxes are what we need - it's really good never think to not running them if we have confidants its speed up a lot - GSZ need mana - this basically brings creatures from library in the same cost as it would be in hand (Moxes) (but not more than 3).
3 Mox Diamond
3-4 Mother of Runes (we never want Bob died)
4 Dark Confidant
2-3 Stoneforge Mystic - those guys are really good - Fetching best Sword/Jitte on actual situation.
4 Knight of the Reliquary - maybe its crazy but I would think is we really need 4 of with GSZ and Dark Confidant
1 Tarmogoyf - single
4 Noble Hierarch - without vial its second one dude after mox which we want on starting hand u can also made 3-1 split with Birds sometimes Flying matter.
1-2 Scryb Ranger - this dude can be very good with Moxes we can bring unused land to discard it for moxes so more-more speed :]
4 StP - Obv
1 Jitte
1 SoFI
1 SoLS - I'm a big fan of this Sword - Swords to plowshares protection and unblock + 3 life on Bob is great in all Dark Horizons MU.
2 Qasali Pridemage - never run less than 2 - they're best in blind meta.
Ok That what u think is obv now let look at your questions:
Vial - We talked about upper
Mangara of Corondor is slow even with Vial its 4 turn - and waste unproof if you want to run pernament hate just run Vindicates much better and not needing Vial.
4 Vial and 4 Hierarch - I saw some build with it, everything fine but you run all your hand in first 3 turn having 1-2 mana drops and what next ? Lose - Overkill in my opinion.
Equip, Goyf, Stoneforge all good chooses also metion above vindicates as additional removal - that would be nice and feeds goyfs like in Junk.
More creatures chooses: Terravore - very good one of my favorite - wins KotRs war and also can't be chumped, Weathered Wayfarer - I played a lot of this guy and its good only in Vial build - without it its rather useless most good players just play over it.
Aven Mindcensor was good in Survival MU which lock them out a little, vs actual meta its rather poor - passing turn with 3 open mana is bad - it works only with Vial.
4th color is overkill - while u playing wasteland your mana base can be also nuked - remember it - more nonbasics - worst MU vs some random Blood Moon/B2B/Wastelands - Mox would help this problem.
Quirion Ranger is rather poor - Scryb have wings and blue protection can be very helpful (fishes, Vendilion Clique and etc) this one mana diffrence doesn't matter its supporter.
Elspeth - yes, yes, yes :) this should be run 1-2-of even with confidant. Flying to fly over walls and tox for all equips in control MU is what we need.
Sylvan Library - while runing Bob it would be nice but... it works in draw step so after confidants shows - this mean after every fetch your show blind card which isn't good, SDT would be better.
At the end time to count AVG in deck, and look how looks graphs then think is Vindicate fits it, count number of creatures u should have not less then 18-20.
If u want more controlish version with Vindicates, Hymn of Tourach, Thoughtseize look on Dark Horizons/Junk thread :)
I hope this post helps.
Greetings,
Fatal
Feels like a pitty to run mox diamond but not wayfarer in the above decklist, especially in a 3 colors manabase. By the way, it looks like a lot of you are trying to go in different directions with this deck (which is good), and the first cut always seems to be wayfarer (which is maybe not so good). imo it's part of the core of the deck, and has become even more essential with the printing of GSZ and the future batterskull (fetch cradle, proceed to win). On this topic, am I the only one really excited with this new living equipment? Seems much better than SoLaS overall (which was already on the verge of leaving the deck imo). And the new clone gives us a very decent tutorable answer to progenitus, which is exactly what was missing in the SB. New Phyrexia will be good for this deck, especially if merfolk becomes more popular thanks to MM.
Regarding the primer, it's very good (and I'm glad someone finally wrote one), but I would disagree to elspeth x2 being part of the "core" of the deck. It pops up here and there, but a lot of lists don't run it. I would also have put the whole MoR playset in this core, and not scryb ranger (again, some lists don't run it).
On vial and GSZ not being great together : it's true. But I feel like the raw power of these two cards and their good interactions with the rest of the deck still mean it's viable to run them in the same list. As for the MD creature toolbox, I'd go with dyad, scryb (you don't need more than 1 if you run GSZ), teeg (if you see blue and it's not merfolk it's always a safe target g1) and RWM (against aggro). Possibly witness and goyf if you have the room (but be aware that you'll rarely want to tutor for goyf), but that's not indispensable. Better keep it tight instead of going cute (that's what... never mind).
New equipment looks quite nice, its good beater but having protection from white (mostly StP) and fetching discarded creature is very important in rock MU I would never cut SoLS.
Also one word about Gaea's Cradle - its win more card if u have so much creature that u fetching this land - its mean you win, but losing after drawing this land in control MU is a nightmare - trust me or not this deck doesn't need it. This conclusion comes to me after 20 games in one row vs landstill with tons of removal.
Next thing Scryb Ranger in new meta infested with merfolks is a god card - everytime you face Merfolks, Clique any wasteland - this card safe you day.
I wouldn't be so sure to fetching Gaddock Teeg as a rule - sometimes it will block you also, u have to guess vs what u playing and choose good target
Well, obviously. What I was saying referred to this scenario : you're playing g1 against an unknown opponent. 3rd turn (or 2nd with NH) you have GSZ in hand and you haven't seen anything besides blue lands and say, cantrips (or even a BoP/NH). My point was that you should probably go for teeg at this point. Worst case scenario he's playing a tempo deck and teeg will only stop FoW (which is always something). But since you're defenseless g1 vs storm combo and NO (and other stuff like sneak attack and humility) then that's the safe play, which could very well help you steal a game. Also, a lot of aggro-control blue decks run jace now, so it's rarely a very bad play anyways.
Batterskull is also very resilient to removal, actually. Even better : it comes back as a creature after a sweeper (even deed). vs aggro and vs control, batterskull > SoLaS, hands down. SoLaS might be marginally better in some rarer MUs like The Rock (and even then it depends, see deed), but that alone won't stop me from making the swap.
That's just not true. I've experienced countless situations where I had a few creatures but a weak board (ie a combination of wayfarer, NH and rangers, typically), and where going for cradle to equip in the turn or GSZ into KotR saved my ass. There are other decks beside landstill in the metagame! That being said, if you don't play GSZ and don't plan to include batterskull (which, imho, would be a mistake), then I agree its inclusion is debatable.
True, but we already have a good MU vs merfolk without it, so it's a moot point. I still like the card (a lot), don't get me wrong, there are just times when you'd rather have something a bit more beefy to put on the board, and it's pretty horrible to draw into multiples. That's why it's an ideal GSZ target imo.
That's the differences:That's just not true. I've experienced countless situations where I had a few creatures but a weak board (ie a combination of wayfarer, NH and rangers, typically), and where going for cradle to equip in the turn or GSZ into KotR saved my ass. There are other decks beside landstill in the metagame! That being said, if you don't play GSZ and don't plan to include batterskull (which, imho, would be a mistake), then I agree its inclusion is debatable.
Simple:
If you playing Vial, Wayfarer - Cradle is must include
If you are playing without Vial and Wayfarer - Cradle is win more card and sometimes - I lose.
Last word about Battleskull it looks promising but also heavy mana invested testing shows its useful.
Hi,
as i dont want this thread to die, i will post my post-NPH List :) (not including Mental Misstep).
Lands (22)
3xSavannah
2x Forest
1xPlains
4x Windswept Heath
2x Misty Rainforest
2x Flooded Strand
4x Wasteland
2x Horizon Canopy
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Karakas
Critter(25)
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Mother of Runes
3x SFM
3x Tarmogoyf
4x KotR
3x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scryb Ranger
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Eternal Witness
Other(11)
4x GSZ
4x StoP
1x Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Batterskull
Flex Slots (2)
1x Elspeth/Rafiq/Thrun
1x Kitchen Finks/Elspeth
Sideboard
2x Enlightened Tutor
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Null Rod
1x Tormods Crypt
1x Phyrexian Metamorph
1x Bojuka Bog
2x Path to Exile
2x Krosan Grip
3x Flex Slots
Turn 3 SFM into Batterskull can really be a house against Aggro Decks, it improved my matchup against Rb Goblins as Perish becomes less devastating.
Has anyone tried Aven Mindcensor? He got disruption and evasion but he's white, so you cant do GSZ into him, which means you need 2-3 copies.
Any sort of criticism is welcome :)
Nice list, although I don't like batterskull in builds without vial and wayfarer (+cradle). The reason being you can't eot SFM for safety or cast batterskull if you have it in hand. If the opponent destroys SFM when it still has summoning sickness, or even detroys the germ token, you're left with a big uncastable piece of junk. Also, you have less need for punch in GSZ lists compared to vial + wayfarer ones, where batterskull really shines.
Imo you're going too far in the GSZ toolbox. You need to think which creatures you'll really want to tutor regularly, and if it's worth the rick of topdecking them when you don't. I woul cut finks and the creature flex slot, and also 1 or 2 qasali (it's pretty useless in certain MUs, and you always have GSZ if you really need it). Mindcensor has been great, I now play 3 in my GSZ build. It helps you in the hardest MUs (NO, storm combo, loam decks, ...) and also in mirror-type decks (seems like everyone is playing knight, GSZ, and to a lesser extent SFM nowadays). But of course it's a gamble, since it will be near useless in certain MUs, like TA.
how does this deck fare against dredge and combos
Depends on your build and how fast they are. I think Dredge is even or slightly in our favor. Storm is in their favor, but you can win. Imo it's important to start of with a Hierarch, followed up by Gaddock/GSZ into Gaddock/Aven Mindcensor.
Here's the list I've been testing based off the primer and other lists. I like rafiq, he's been useful, the rhox hasn't come out yet. So you guys might be right about him, he might be better off as something else.
What is SFM acronym for?
// Lands
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [US] Gaea's Cradle
3 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [B] Tropical Island
1 [DK] Maze of Ith
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [ZEN] Forest (3a)
1 [ZEN] Forest (1)
1 [ZEN] Plains (4a)
2 [TE] Wasteland
3 [A] Savannah
// Creatures
3 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
1 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
3 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
3 [MBS] Mirran Crusader
2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
1 [FD] Eternal Witness
3 [UL] Mother of Runes
1 [ALA] Rafiq of the Many
1 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
2 [TSP] Scryb Ranger
// Spells
1 [MBS] Sword of Feast and Famine
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
1 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [IN] Dueling Grounds
SB: 2 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
SB: 2 [WL] Serenity
SB: 1 [MBS] Thrun, the Last Troll
SB: 1 [WL] Null Rod
SB: 2 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [OD] Terravore
SFM= Stoneforge Mystic
Your list looks nice, but I don't like Rafiq/Rhox War Monk in there. On the other hand, it looks like a pretty straight foward list...how has been Mirran Crusader for you?
Hey guys, very nice lists.
As soon I have a time i wrote report from GP side event in Prague 130 players.
I goes 4-2-1 (one scoop to my friend in round 6 who made top8).
I lose only to Enchantress (unprepared side to it - missing Serenity)
I played against:
2 x Dredge (2-0 and 2-1)
1 x BUG LandStill (2-0)
1 x Maverick GWb (1-0-1)
1 x U/R Tempo (1-1-1)
1 x Enchantress (1-2)
1 x NO Bant (scoop, played for fun and it was 1-1)
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