@Warden:
disagree: Choke is at an all-time high atm!
What do you guys think about the new cards of commander 14? Masterwork of Ingenuity seems pretty strong in certain situations. Maybe as a SB slot against blade decks to copy Batterskull/Jitte/Blades. Tutorable with SfM and then nearly always immediately slammable the same turn!
The planeswalkers all cost too much mana...
I'm trying to build a GWb list again. Is Mother really that strong currently? When I played half a year ago it seemed that Mother just suffers too much from TNN and all these board wipes... I built a NO Maverick list these days to get rid of x/1 creatures.
I like Golgari Charm, even as MB maybe as it is versatile and effectice against a lot of tactics. But then we would have to use Deathrites and probably no Moms and Thalias.
I have no legacy experience right now but it seems that things again changed. Actually I like going back to more traditional builds with Mom, Thalia, etc.
In general I don't like PF in addition with Thalia. I think it's a very expensive interaction for "just" 2 damage.
I like containment priest, but it is bad with both zenith and vial, without those it's not really Maverick anymore. I wonder if enough hatebears will exist in the format eventually to the point where we are consistent enough without zenith.
Yeah it's supremely awkward that a hate bear that Mother of Runes loves to protect invalidates the engines that fuel Mother of Runes decks in the first place. I actualy think the card is better in Miracles and Blade decks against us than it is in our deck, and that's not a comfortable thought.
What is it about the Miracles matchup that Maverick can't beat it?
I'm still evaluating decks for GP NJ and I'm down to Jund (currently sleeved, playing in GPT's, etc) or a Maverick variant. Maverick in general seems strong due to the proven hatebear strategy (Teeg, Thalia, Mom) and has Knight for anti-Show and Tell...plus being a massive beater.
Punishing Maverick looks interesting because, obviously, Punishing Fire. It's an easy swap from Jund and probably the biggest part of why Jund still has game against Delver, DnT, Elves, etc. On the surface it appears that it needs to put Thalia in the side, and overall would have a bad miracles/combo matchup.
Dark Maverick loses Punishing Fire and can likely run Thalia main, but gains Abrupt Decay, DRS, discard, and some saucy sideboard in Chains and Engineered Plague. I'm also looking at it for Golgari Charm and Toxic Deluge, even though they are non-bo with a deck founded on x/1's.
I've found that Maverick's use of Thalia and SFM gives it a strong game against Delver and Burn, and Thalia plus Teeg can slow down Combo. I also believe that through the use of Caverns, the deck can additionally get game through Boseiju tech (via Knight/Crop rotation) to force Armageddon, Cataclysm, Comeuppance, or Toxic Deluge. I guess there's poor synergy between those and Teeg, but having several locks to put down is better than just one.
So this kinda rambled but is there an overall favor for one mav over the other right now?
Originally Posted by Acclimation
Because unlike "traditional" (ie; over the history of MTG) Wx control decks, Miracles has a 1-mana wrath of god-esq card that's active from turn 2 onward. In addition to this, they have 4-6 swords to plowshares + some amount of Verdicts and Jace. To compliment these things, there's a million filtering effects and counters. Where control decks also struggle, Miracles is well tuned: Entreat is just GG in most instances.
Teeg = turns off the business spells. But he's a legend and very vulnerable to STP/Karkas
Needle/QPM/Kgrip = Needed to stop Top and CB. If you don't land Needle early, it's a dead card
Armageddon = Taking out their mana more aggressively than Choke works well with DRS and KotR. Doesn't play nice with Teeg
@Choke: I don't like the card because Miracles can beat you off plains + SDT. UR Delver tends to run past Choke (assuming it slips in past Force/Daze/Pierce). klaus, I am interested in your experiences with Choke recently. Nearly every situation I've had in events wouldn't have improved due to Choke. Decks are too efficient to have a conditional 3 drop beat them. DRS also neuters the card a lot.
I've had similar experiences with Choke. I ran Raking Canopy in the past with Nic Fit with better results.
Choke has a lot of variance. If you land it turn 2 off a mana dork they can play around it, and late game they likely have the resources to either counter it or just power through. Sucker punching your opponent when they're tapped out just doesn't happen very often. They're not going to put themselves in that position without FoW backup. Miracles doesn't actually play as much removal as it feels like. They're just able to see a million more cards than us, so finding the right answer becomes trivial. You can overload their removal just playing patiently. I kinda like the idea of Armageddon above. A hard reset feels like it should favor us, assuming you can land it.
I love this archetype, but I do worry about its long-term prospects given more recent cards. Much like RUG Delver after Khans, it feels like this is a deck that will have to radically evolve or simply die out. I hate to be all doom and gloom, and I think in certain metas Maverick is a very good choice, but there are systemic problems that remain to be solved. Treasure Cruise is just one example, and I would hate for Maverick to become a deck that NEEDS a $300 reserved list card (Chains) to compete.
It is interesting that you feel that way. I feel as though Maverick has actually gained strength in the metagame because of these new cards. Not that we play them, but the decks that do tend to fall prey to cards like Thalia and Gaddock Teeg. I have been playing Hymn to Tourach for the last year, and I can honestly say right now I would rather be playing Gaddock Teeg + MoR.
Oh, don't get me wrong. I think Maverick actually wins a bit from UR Delver pushing combo out of the meta like it has. The problem with the Teeg game plan is that they run a giant pile of burn, and cards like Forked Bolt are coming back into fashion to help combat Young Pyro. We're hurt badly by that, just like we were hurt by all the incidental TNN hate last year that hasn't gone away. It's a bad time to be relying on x/1s and x/2s to control the board.
It's not that we don't have the tools to succeed, I just feel like the relative power gain of those new cards makes individual matchups worse, even if it means the meta is more favorable to fair decks. I'm beginning to wonder if GSZ is too much of a sacred cow. In a world where Teeg is our strongest hatebear, and ALL of our other recent hate cards (Spirit of the Labyrinth, and now Containment Priest) also conflict with GSZ... are we reaching a point where we're better off just running more bears than we are 4 tutors? I don't feel qualified to answer that, but it's a relevant question.
Hello Maverick players,
I have been playing Punishing Dark Maverick ever since I seen this list for BOM 2013 http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=12122&iddeck=88837
After a full year of playing with the deck, I have done well at many local events and before Khans of Tarkir meta game I found this deck to be very powerful and very well adaptable in this format with so many viable deck choices.
Here link with a list from September with my success: http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14709&iddeck=108804
After months of tampering with my list here is what I would run at my very next event:
Creatures 21
1 Birds of Paradise
4 Deathrite Shaman (maybe 3)
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
1 Noble Hierarch (maybe 2)
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Dryad Arbor
Non-Creature Spells: 15
4 Punishing Fire
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Life from the Loam
Lands: 24
1 Forest
1 Bayou
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Plateau
2 Savannah
2 Taiga
1 Thespian's Stage
3 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Karakas
1 Dark Depths
SideBoard
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Engineered Plague
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Stony Silence
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Pyroblast
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Bojuka Bog
Currently delver decks are all over the format, and this is why I am opting for a 3rd scavenging ooze in my deck. I have considered Spirit of the Labyrinth main deck in the place of the 3rd Scavenging Ooze, however, Ooze seems more universally good and life gain in this format of rush down decks could come in handy.
I am also keeping 4 punishing fire main, and I would advise most people who play this build to do so. Punishing Fire is an amazing card in this deck, and Punishing Fire kills most creatures in this format. If you wish to play with life from the loam, (as most punishing maverick players have in the past) than 4 Punishing Fire will be especially useful. In some cases, the dredge effect on loam can mill (you'll see 3 cards on a dredge effect, and only 1 if you draw) Pfire or Grove of the Burnwillows and getting the combo online might be enough to win many games and in some cases, food for knight, DRS, and Ooze can be enough to keep you in the game.
Both Elspeth and Council's Judgement are removed from my deck because of the pace of the format, and because my mana base does not support white spells with 2W needed very well. These cards are very powerful, but they will not fit my 75 unless the format slows down again.
I added additional Pridemage cards, and I'm worried 3 in my 75 isn't enough. The Reclamation Sage is AWESOME in most cases and I would recommend using one in the sideboard over an additional QPM if the effects are needed. Sage can be useful when wanting to keep a body on the board and take an artifact or enchantment out with it. With Pridemage you can be more aggressive and use Pridemage to stop players from casting Bloodmoon, but if a Bloodmoon is out, and the 1 forest in the deck is in play, than Reclamation sage is the card you wanna see. It's all very dependent on the game state, but I like having the Sage in my deck, even when Omnitell isn't a deck I'm worried about.
The Dark Depth's combo is the what all Maverick players should be aspiring to do in my mind. KotR is better off sitting back and blocking or tapping its self than it is swinging for damage. With Miracle decks all around us, swinging during the combat step will usually result in a dead KotR. You will get some value at of a knight if you tap the KotR and get a cool land, because chances are that 1 KotR wont win the game on its on. Maze of Ith is cool, but I think the card is out classes by the Dark Depths combo, especially now that Truename Nemesis cannot be targeted by that land, and TNN is a big problem for Maverick.
Aven Mindcensor is a card that always seemed to find its way into most Maverick decks. Many articles I read discourage the use of the card in this deck, and I have chosen to take the advise. Elves is the only highly played deck that the card could shut down, and even a main deck Spirit of the Labyrinth seems to have a more practical use in stomping glimpse of nature while teeg stopped the Natural order. The 3rd Scavenging Ooze is where the Mindcensor would be.
Choke is a card that I have come to try again, and so far I don't love it. I cannot find room to add it in against certain blue decks, especially when I'm running 2 Pyroblast already. The UR delver match is one where I thought Choke would be an ace, however, I'm dead on the board before I can afford to cast a 3 mana card that doesn't kill an on board creature. Choke is good against the control builds of blue, but I wouldn't put in it against UR delver with the way my current 75 looks.
The E-tutor board has been wonderful for me in the past. I run 6 mana dorks and GSZ so I can most often play anything turn 2 to beat the combo decks. Getting choke was sweet with the Etutor against miracles, however that deck has answers to everything we can throw at them. I may opt out of using the E-tutor board if combo decks continue to take a back seat. 9 side board slots are taken up because of this card so if I'm not boarding them in often, I am not sideboarding right.
Good luck to anyone trying the deck. I hope this information is useful to someone. I'd be glad to offer more information if needed.
Ps. I played this same deck for about a year and it has been incredibly rewarding and fun. If you wanna try this list, be incredibly careful and aware of the lands. Fetching the wrong land (usually Bayou or Plateau) or not getting a basic forest against a Bloodmoon deck are my main reasons for losing matches.
Could we all agree we need a new primer?
Maverick for life
3-1'd the Legacy Trial for SCG Oakland. Beat UR Delver 2-0, lost to tin fins which boarded into doomsday 1-2, beat BUG Control Lands/Dark Depths 2-1, beat Aluren 2-1.
Got a polluted delta in one of my 6 khans packs *success kid*
I am playing a dark list with no SFM, Elsepth, 3 QPM, and an E Tutor board. Will let you guys know how I do tomorrow with a list and good full report.
No problem just write ;)Could we all agree we need a new primer?
gj on your finish Iron
Went 3-1 today with punishing maverick, beat elves twice and UR Delver-Cruise; lost to UWR delver with 4 bolt/4 swords/batterskull.
Deck still has a ton of play to it, I feel like 4 punishing fire is a must
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
List per chance?
Creatures(21)
4 Mother of Runes
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Heirarch
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Quasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
Artifacts(3)
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
Spells (12)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Punishing Fires
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Life from the Loam
Land (24)
1 Forest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Maze of Ith
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Savannah
2 Taiga
4 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
Sideboard(15)
4 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Sylvan Library
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Rest in Peace
Super standard list, trying to remove all of the fancy stuff. Rest in Peace is monster against anything that wants the think about the graveyard, knight of the reliquary is the only card that really cares about the year and he is still a 2/2 that fetches maze of iths and wastelands.
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
I will be controversial, but I think this deck miss at least one copy of Tarmogoyf.
There are many tight games where I need a big monster of GSZ x=2 to stop the beatdown, and I only have utility creatures in that cost
Even KOTR sometimes it's not big enough in early states of the game
has anyone had the same feeling?
Goyf is fine if you want him as a one of, knight of the reliquary is just that much better in any situation you have a choice though.
Food for thought: cutting knight of the reliquary for mirran crusaders and being able to bring in rest in peace painlessly.
Rest in peace is good against most of the current format especially if treasure cruise stays unbanned.
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
It's kind of a split, on one hand we can use Goyf to stop the early ground rush, but then RIP graveyard combo (ANT, Reanimator) is going to make a comeback because they can handle the one or two counterspells that UR Delver will have.
Crusader is good, but he is easily killed by every burn spell in UR, and he can't profitably block swiftspear after just one spell.
Obviously sideboard and all...the deck needs a beater to hold the line against UR and close out the game quickly against combo before they can draw bounce, and RIP kills the best options.
Brimaz might be a good alternative, he is a nightmare for UR, can be played with RiP, can't be bolted, and can kill quickly enough. He's not green for GSZ, but green doesn't get efficient fatties anymore...
And yeah, I find Knight is too slow early early game to compete with Swiftspear pressure.
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