I am not, but that is where I started from. I had been trying to jam Living Wish in legacy for awhile and soon as a I saw that list I loved it.Originally Posted by lordofthepit
The main changes I made where the SB in particular and putting the 4 Thalia MD. Thalia is so good that I always want to draw her. With 4 MD we can free up the Living Wish for specific hate - Canonist/Teeg/Revoker for Combo.
This vial/wish build takes the hatebear even further then regular Maverick. Wish/Vial interaction allows for instantaneous hate.
What is everyone's thoughts on Collected Company? This card seems broken and perfect in a Maverick or Bant Blade shell. I'm going to playtest it as a singleton and go from there. If anything, It seems like a great sideboard card against Miracles. But the potential value seems too good to pass up.
Good job! Was this the GPT in Manila? What's with all the Stompy/Chalice decks over there these days?Got to the semis last sunday with this list:
4 KotR
4 Thalia
4 Mom
4 StP
4 GSZ
3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Noble Hierarch
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Teeg
1 Pridemage
1 Scooze
1 SoFI
1 Sylvan Library
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland
2 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Karakas
4 Thoughtseize
3 Zealous Persecution (tired of losing to TNN)
2 Canonist
2 Choke
1 Teeg
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
1 SolaS
39 players, 6 rds swiss
Miracles 2-0
Both games were the old 1-2 punch of Knight fetching wastelands along with her buddy Thalia. No top deck Terminus
Goblin Stompy 0-2
1. He was on the play with a first turn Magus of the Moon. Wasn't able to top deck a basic Plains. GG
2. Went the distance, however removal wasn't enough for his multiple Mogg Catchers tutoring for Kiki Jikki + Murderous Redcap.
Patriot 2-0
1. Knight got huge fast while decaying his Delvers.
2. Kept a land heavy opening hand because he was on the mana denial plan. He got carried away with stifles and wastelands, so he was left with a single Tundra for the last 5 turns so my Knights did what they do best.
SnT 2-1
1. Emrakul from a Sneak Attack seems to be pretty good.
2. He got screwed with his own Blood Moon. Teeg with one Deathrite Shaman did all the 20 damage. Lol
3. Early beats with Thalia and Deathrite's with Mom on standby for Pyroclasm. Eventually top decked his SnT dropping his noodles, me with Knight. Got Karakas on my turn that's all she wrote.
Food Chain Griffins 0-2
1. He did not combo off both games. Got me delayed with his Strixes he played all 4
2. Early Clique carrying a Jitte against my Moms and dorks was brutal.
Dragon Stompy 2-0
1. He was on the play with a turn 1 Chalice set to 1 and a turn 2 Magus of the Moon, fortunately floating the black for a Decay. That was his only threat for the game so it was time for Knight smash!
2. Another early Blood Moon. My first play was on turn 3 for a GSZ fetching my singleton Pridemage. Knights went to town having a good time after that.
Got to top 7 after swiss.
Affinity 2-1
1. He was on the play with Chalice for 1. By this time I was about ready to puke with all the CotV's I played against that day. Ornitopter with a Cranial Plating loved me long time.
2. A long game with his Etched Champions holding the fort. My Deathrite Shaman did his best Grim Lavamancer impression to even up the match.
3. Two Revokers on Knight and Jitte, an Etched Champion and an Ornitopther. Of course, my favourite Chalice for 1 was giving me cold sweats. Made sure I save my Decays for the Platings. Me with 3 Knights at 5/5. He was down to 6 life from all his Ancient Tomb activation's. Knight put on the pressure. He missed on combat math so he was forced to chump block and was left with his Etched Champion and Da Vinci's invention. KNIGHT SMASH!!!
Infect
He was a teammate so we decided to have him play for the finals against SnT for a more favorable match up. He eventually won and we split our prizes.
Re: Eldritch Moon and Emrakul
I wouldn't be too sad to go down in GSZ count in order to run this card to some degree. As you said, the value is absolutely insane. Absolute worst case scenario in terms of value is that you get a instant Mom and Deathrite Shaman at 3G. Oh no.
The tournament I started is over. You should join the next one.
This is exactly what I thought too. Just the fact that even our low cost creatures are already crazy good, the prospect of getting 2 of them at instant speed is incredible value on board. And in magical christmas land, we have sylvan library on board to try to set up something. I like it a lot, and I think a 1-of in the maindeck seems good. Does it replace a green sun? i don't know. But I definitely want a copy of that card somewhere in my 75.
I'm not sold on it yet. 4 mana is a lot for a Thalia deck, and GSZ is frequently cast much earlier than 4 mana in order to establish a board presence. It also snags a silver bullet, rather than fiddling around with the top 10% of the deck and giving you whatever you find.
I think it's a strong card, but it doesn't feel like it belongs in this archetype.
I am going to try Collected Company as a 1 of but I don't know if it makes the cut. I definitely don't think it replaces GSZ just because of how versatile it is.
My main gripes with it, is that it costs 5 mana with Thalia and at 4 mana we could be playing Garruk or Elspeth which can be great value engines if they stick and take over games. It also is a non-bo with teeg.
I think CC definitely has potential. I think the benefit here is how explosive it can be. Maverick to me is a deck that wants to build board states and get far enough ahead that the opponent can't deal with us. CC seems to be proactive in that plan (imagine EOT hitting a knight + any other creature it would be pretty nuts).
I really think it could be good at getting ahead, where planeswalkers will be slower.
I hope it ends up being viable, but who knows
Yeah it was. No idea, maybe it was bring your CoTV to work day.Good job! Was this the GPT in Manila? What's with all the Stompy/Chalice decks over there these days?
With our mana dorks, 4 mana isn't all that much. I am constantly GSZ for 3 (cmc 4) for Knight and how would this be any different? I don't think that we eliminate GSZ from the list. I think we run it alongside each other. I plan on running 3 GSZ and 2 Collected Company and tweak from there. Maybe it's bad, but the potential seems too good to overlook.
Last edited by DudeItsCorey; 03-10-2015 at 12:14 PM.
I disagree. I believe our deck excels when both players are in top deck mode. Our draws/threats are usually always stronger.
That's a fair point and I can't argue with that. On the subject of top deck mode, CC seems like it would be good in getting quite a bit of gas.
I have had it happen in enough games where although, a narrow situation I think it can be common enough to see CC benefits against liliana. It can be pretty tough fighting lilli in top deck mode sometimes because if you play a threat they make you sacrifice it and if you dont thythey can make you discard. CC would be pretty sweet in response to a lilli's +1. But so would a planeswalker and those haven't being see much play.
A great way to help keep threats on board against lily is to keep a green fetch back. That way when your opponent -2, you in response fetch for Dryad Arbor. Although, it doesn't always work out that way, it is a helpful tool to have.
Difference being that planeswalkers themselves are situational while Collected Company only makes use of tools that you have deemed worthy of your deck.
The tournament I started is over. You should join the next one.
I respectfully disagree. I am in the camp that emphasizes "GSZ is flexible and lets you search for bullets". IMHO, the point of GSZ in the deck is that it's a glue to magically insert [situational green creature you need]. On top of that, GSZ is usually just cycled back into the deck so I can eventually cast it again.
Collected Company is a different animal. It's more like Fact or Fiction for green. Ultimately, FoF is perceived as cumbersome. The hivemind that is TheSource may reach similar conclusions. "Look at the top 6 of your library and pick 2 creatures that meet a specified criteria" is nothing to scoff at. However, the effect is along the lines of "I want to draw raw cards". This is a different drawing dynamic than GSZ. The times I GSZ, I tutor for crap like Arbor, Teeg, QPM, Scooze (utility folk) buried in my library. Such tutoring usually wins me the game, as I have specific answers for specific board-states and/or decks. We'll have to think about restructuring the deck to work with "I want to draw raw cards". It can work with Confidant. It can work with Sylvan Library. However, those cards are not spells with a 1-time effect for 3G.
I also want to clarify that I'm not opposed to the card overall. It's damn powerful. I'm guess I'm getting at how we should stop and think about how the card works. Let's not rush to "yeah, this is replacing GSZ". That would be a mistake. Instead, I would alter Maverick's composition ensure I cna hit 3G more often. The "issue" with hitting 4 mana spells is with how Maverick inherently wins (large % due to wasteland-thalia). Similarly, what the hell do we cut? In terms of replacing flex slots, we're probably stepping on the toes of SFM, equipment, 1-2 bears, and sylvan library. I wouldn't "shave down" the number of valuable creatures I ran because I'd want to reveal them with Collected Company. We'll have to construct lists that cater to this card.
Last, I want to raise an interesting note about my own successes using Natural Order. For argument's sake, the concept of needing to play a 4cc "spell" is similar. I didn't cut GSZ to make room for NO; I ran both. However, I ran NO in the SB --- usually at the expense of Thalia. If I dropped Thalia from the main, it would be in favor of something big. Like MD natural order big. I am not sure Thalia + Collected Company cause too many headaches. On paper it seems the deck would be running competing strategies if you shoehorn in Company.
Warden I think you're reading the card wrong. it's an instant speed - look at the top 6 cards of your library and select up to two creatures with cmc 3 or less and put them onto the Battlefield. It serves a different purpose than GSZ as it's more of a game ender than a silver bullet finder, your right. I'm restructuring the deck to go down on 1 GSZ and moving Sigarda to the sideboard. Also, I'm debating on whether to put in Bobs over Library. Lastly, I'm going down to two Abrupt decays from three to put in a second Qasali mainboard.
Picture: http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/...1265307832.png
I am aware it's instant speed, which made me compare it to FoF in terms of raw card draw. However, the points I brought up remain. I think the deck would have to be restructured in a way that caters to this card. I am not sure what that maindeck would resemble. I view its role as a jack-of-all-trades rather than a finisher/game ender. At least we are on the same page comparing its role vs GSZ.
Here is my 60 any given day (Herzog model):
//23 Lands
22 Whatever
1 Dryad Arbor
//22 Core Creatures
5 Mana Dorks (Deathrite Shaman, Noble Hierarch)
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Utility bears (Scavenging Ooze, Qasali Pridemage, Scryb)
1 Gaddock Teeg
//5 Flex
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of ___ & ___ (usually Light and Shadow)
//10 Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Library
What do I shift around? I could see perhaps -1 thalia, -1 library and/or -1 equipment for certain metas. Some recent winning lists already do this in favor of MD decays and a big finisher like Sigarda. An interesting concept would be run some amount of Collected Company + Eternal Witness.
well, we are already casting green sun's at variable costs, including 4 (knight, courser), 5 (sometimes, thrun, but i don't run him) 6 (sigarda). it's not impossible to reach 4 mana here, nor is it out of the ordinary.
However, where I do agree is that we do have to compare it against plainswalkers, and see how it stacks up in their spots. And this is where I might be biased (or too hyped), but I think I like this card more than them. I tried to make them work (Sorin LoI, Elspeth, Garruck relentless, but they always came short for me, somehow. Elspeth was actually the better one out of the 3, but sometimes, I felt that even then, she (and the others) just didn't fit in my strategy (never casted them, or casted them but they could have been anything else, it would not have mattered), or felt too situational. In the end, I ended up just cutting all my plainswalkers.
What plays for Collected Company is, IMO, the fact that it's an instant (i think a sorcery version of this card is probably unplayable), and the fact that it puts creatures directly in play, and not in hand. As such, I don't think it can be compared to fact or fiction, the card advantage it provides is completely different (and more powerful in a sense, because it devellops the board with the creatures you found ''for free'', when it doesn't fail. This isn't a draw 2 cards effect). It also can't be compared to green sun, this isn't a flexible tutor (and why I think you can't replace a green sun with this card). This is just a way to throw cards into play, at instant speed, but for a deck built around it. As it happens, we are probably already build for that (or the closest), with what? 25 creatures usually? 0-1 of them over 3 cmc? i think the opportunity is too good to pass, IMO, as a one of. You probably want to see it once in the game as a value card.
Warden has hit all of the salient points for why I think this is the wrong shell for Collected Company. Hell, there might end up being a legacy deck out there that runs it... even runs it in junk colors. I just don't think it fits the strategy of Maverick. That potential shell in the future might even end up *better*, but it will be something fundamentally different.
Maverick is about choosing the one, right tool for the job. Grabbing two instant speed Knights sounds pretty sweet, but it isn't going to happen that often. We're not after raw card advantage. If I *have* to pay 4 mana, I'd rather pay it for 1 guaranteed Knight (or a NO > Progenitus) than the chance at two. The variance is too high.
so do you guys think that there is a list where Collected Company and GSZ could co exist? Maybe 4 GSZ and 1 CC? or like others have mentioned do they both just cater to too much of different strategies that you have to build around one.
I think that you could possibly get away with 4 GSZ and 1 CC in the 75 but I also see the arguement of why CC isn't what we want.
If we were to try and make a list that catered to CC what would we change or where would we start? (I realize that mkaing certain changes could get us away from the heart of what maverick really is/wants to do)
The prospect of putting in two value creatures into play at instant speed is too much fun to not try/test
I think it would be fun to talk and think about even though I don't think anything too serious will come from it
I think that we have to wait for the card to be in circulation before we really know. I think that Bant Blade may be another deck that could utilize the card, but would definitely have to be restructured to be more Creature heavy with counterspell backup for combo. Having access to the likes of Knight of the Reliquary, Tarmogoyf, Stoneforge, TNN, maybe the best shell for it. Death and Taxes could possible run it if it wants to start splashing green (which would then gain access to Teeg). The reason I feel this deck would be a great placement is because it's already very creature heavy. For Maverick you definitely don't replace the Green Sun Zenith (Maybe go down to 3), but you could restructure the deck to play Bobs instead of Library, more Qasali if you're mainboarding Abrupt Decay, etc. Again the value is too much to not at least attempt.
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