Against miracles cards like choke and gaddock teeg can give them a headache. Teeg especially if we have mom to protect him. Abrupt decay is good for hitting CB or tops in response to fetches etc..we also have cards like sylvan library and garruk relentless that are great for grinding out long games and are hard for them to answer once resolved. We also usually pack sword of fire and ice which can usually give us a good clock and CA.
I think why Miracles is still so tough is just how consistent they can be. They have fantastic card filtering/selection, pseudo CA with top/CB, and they have Terminus which in one card sets us way back usually at least being a 2 for 1. They more or less are great at grinding us out to few cards in hand with not a lot of pressure on board. Then they untap and make 1 million flying angels.
It's winnable but quite tricky. You have to not over extend and choose your openings.
So no?Originally Posted by Luthiereisfun
I really think any effort in most non-blue threads, should be "how can we beat the great blue menace" with Miracles being at the forefront of the discussion. I <3 Maverick and am super happy that the thread is active again but unless the Miracles question has been answered.... why bother with other matchups?
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
I disagree that Miracles killed Maverick: at some point, it was a wide variety of things that pushed Maverick to almost non-existance. It was DRS, True-name and Terminus together that gave us hard times, and then Dig Through Time and Treasure Cruise that did the "this is Sparta!" final knockdown. However, interestingly, when decks started to forget about existance of Wasteland-enabled midrange non-blue decks (except few D&T and stuff), and Delver on its way down due to Miracles (except maybe BUG), many decks started to grind Miracles with very greedy manabases, and that's where we come back, sometimes with some new toys. Legacy always goes circles: with D&T on the rise and combo decks pushed back by the greedy blue Leovold decks, we have a place in the meta again.
Having an unfavored matchup against Miracles doesn't make our deck unplayable. We should be just aware of it, and ready ;)
To make a prairie, it takes a clover and one bee. One clover, a bee, and revery...
We should bother with other matchups because not everyone plays Miracles. At the last 4 or 5 legacy tournaments that I've played with 50+ people, I've only even been matched up against Miracles in the top 8 a few times and never in the Swiss. It's maybe 10% of the overall field [disclaimer: I only play paper magic, no idea what the online metagame is like], even if it's overrepresented in top 8's. And our deck happens to be really quite good against the other ~90% of the field (barring the few weird people who bring random stuff like Belcher). And because of the fact that not many people play Maverick, nobody comes prepared for it. Maverick just destroys most other fair decks and we have random silver bullets that can hose unfair decks.
My personal thought is if I want to maximize my match win %, then I essentially write off Miracles as a loss and try to beat everyone else. I'm OK with that matchup having a 25% win rate if I can win 75% or more of the rest of my matchups. And I do :)
I think the key is packing cards that are incidentally good against miracles but have uses in other match ups. Needle, Choke, and Planeswalkers all have a variety of other uses. Needle against other combo, choke against other blue decks, and Walkers against BUg and other midrangey decks. Having flexible answers is really key in my opinion. I can beat the average miracle player generally speaking, but the really good ones are near impossible to beat 2/3 games
Over the weekend I played at the Quest for Power event at MTGFirst and I was featured on camera.
I went 0-3 drop but I tried out something new for once and
Trying it out again this weekend at SCG Worchesrer.
Collected company.
I know that 4 mana spells are suppose to win the game on their own in order for them to be legacy payable. But I've been testing extensively with this card and it is has been a wrecking blowout.
You will mostly hit two creatures in a set if you are running 25-26 creatures. It gets non-green creatures like mom and Thalia. It can be used relatively to a board wipe if you have the mana to (which for us it isn't hard).
I know that I'm on the minority on this card, but at least before Dismissing it entirely, try it out just once.
I'm a big fan of collected company, although I've never tried it in Maverick, could be fun I'll give it a go.
What are you replacing with it? GSZ?
You can shave some GSZ. Right now I'm on 3 GSZ/2 CC.
It makes the matches where you feel like you are losing board state to be able come back with more threats.
When CoCo came out I tried and it and was an advocate while most people thought I was silly. I don't like that you have to warp the deck to make CoCo better but there are so many viable creatures for Maverick I wouldn't consider it making the deck strictly worse going creature heavy.
There were times it was an absolute blowout grabbing EOT something like a KOTR and stoneforge mystic to ride to victory the next turn. It often was quite good actually, and when it's really good man is it amazing. I ended up dropping it however because for the few times you whiff or just grab a creature that doesn't make an impact that card felt very underwhelming.
People always say a 4CMC should win you the game in legacy. Sometimes CoCo did win you the game. Sometimes it was literally a 4 mana do nothing. Not often, but often enough that it wasn't worth it for me. It's a risk you have to take with the card.
I can understand that lineof thinking. However I don't think collevted company was ever meant to override GSZ. In fact I would say that CC supports GSZ. The ability to EOT ripRR into whatever is in your GY for example is huge. Double Knight is huge. Scavenge ooze with cradle is huge.
I also believe that you don't need to go creature heavy to maximize collected company. The reason why it is that way for modern is because selection for tutoring creatures is smaller than legacy.
Vs Miracles: its a very grindy game. I know that Thrun has been doing a lot of wins for that matchup along with new Nissa. Nissa ends the game faster than Garruk because of her +1. Nothing feels good when they are force to terminus away a 5/5 land. Her ultimate helps us out CA them as well, especially if there is a tracker on the battlefield.
Don't you think that CC makes certain hate pieces, such as Gaddock Teeg/Grafdigger's Cage/Containment Priest, too harsh on us?
In every other regard, it seems like a great choice in the current grindy meta!
Curious to see the list you piloted and reasons why you went 0-3 and against what.
To make a prairie, it takes a clover and one bee. One clover, a bee, and revery...
I generally agree with this synopsis. I think some of the "newer" (using the term loosely) Plainswalkers give Maverick better odds. I still think the matchup is terribly in their favor. Suprised nobody is talking about Gideon. Used him the other weekend in vial-maverick and felt he made the control matchup much better. Gideon has an aggressive clock and worst-case you can drop 2/2 knights.
The other route to go against Miracles is a lockdown. Sanctum Prelate has been 'meh'....she usually baits a counterspell or immediate removal spell. However, she isn't locking Miracles out of the game like I hope she would. The lockdown is X=1, X=3, and Teeg, which is just too magicalchristmasland for me to ever whip up. I've had some success rocking Armageddon, which is what I just suggested to the DnT thread.
Thinking about how the meta has gotten quite grindy...would punishing Maverick warrant taking a look at again? I was trying to think of a punishing list in my head that would have a light black splash to be able to have some black sb cards vs combo.
I like the idea of punishing fire being able to deal with planeswalkers something I think our deck isn't always best to combat.
The same hate peieces also affect GSZ, so it doesnt really change how it would be different for CC.
I peformed like shyt. But heres the list that I pilot,
3 DRS
1 Noble Hirerach
3 Mom
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
4. Little Thalia
1 Scrub Ranger
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasli Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reqiary
1 Renergade Railler
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Thrun the Last Troll
4 STPs
3 GSZ
2 Collected Company
1 Sylvan Library
1 Jitte
1 Sophie
22 Lands
Lost to Food Chain, Miracles on camera, and Oops all Spells
It really depends on your meta, I guess :p
Give it a try, and be sure to tell us how did it go! ;
To make a prairie, it takes a clover and one bee. One clover, a bee, and revery...
Okay so we try to slam down new Gideon against miracles and then hope they never find councils judgement /s
Okay maybe like 3/4 sarcasm
They'll just kill him with mentor/entreat after they take control of the game.
Card doesn't seem that good to me.
Shhhh quit being realistic, join me in magic Christmas land.
Agree entirely. There's enough incidental hate for miracles that you don't need to pack narrow stuff.
Tusk up.
(Not so) Current Decks: GB Elves, GW Maverick, GWb Maverick, LED Dredge, ANT, TES, Jund Storm.
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