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Thread: [Deck] GW/x Maverick

  1. #1001
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    Re: [DTB] GW/x Maverick

    Anyone been testing Canonists main at all?

    I'm liking them so far since they shut down Snapcasters and gives us a little more game against Storm combo.

  2. #1002
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    Re: [DTB] GW/x Maverick

    Syvlan Library is less important against aggro metagames than it is against control. You could cut 1 of them from your maindeck.

    To fill in the remaining cards, you could run 1 Tarmogoyf (zoo, tribal) 1 Elspeth, and 1 Sylvan Safekeeper. I've been looking at that card for several weeks as a way to increase the protection against removal. In a metagame filled with creature decks that pack removal, this seems like a good idea.
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  3. #1003

    Re: [DTB] GW/x Maverick

    hummm, well, for sure ill test this cards.
    I dont really like tarmogoyf, but ill give it a try.
    Safekeeper and Elspeth for sure ill run.

    Ty man

  4. #1004

    Re: [DTB] GW/x Maverick

    How do you guys fight reanimator? They keep going off t2 or t3 with Jin and he always have a daze/FoW in hand ready to counter. I feel like my GY hate is slow.

    Should i be packing 4 faerie macabre instead of 2?

    This is my SB:

    2 Phyrexian Metamorph
    2 tormod's crypt
    2 enlightened tutor
    1 ethersworn canonist
    2 red elemental blast
    2 Krosan grip
    2 Price of Progress
    2 faerie macabre

  5. #1005

    Re: [DTB] GW/x Maverick

    can u post ur Maindeck?

    Well,if ur in play is easier, since u can play knight of the reliquary.

    Karakas is the way to go. And if u can get him in a good Bojuka, everything will be fine.
    Usually they dont really reanimate on turn 2.
    Godhands like this, reanimate turn 2 with FoW is hard for everyone

  6. #1006

    Re: [DTB] GW/x Maverick

    Hi everyone!
    first of all i apologize for my english, i'm a reader from years but this is the first time i post.

    At the moment i'm playing the "straight" GW version, with punishing fires the deck fights much better mancers, confidants and mirror match critter but the mana base ends up in something that i could define Hierarch dependant. Probably i'm gonna play that version only in tournaments with 8+ swiss rounds.

    these days i run 2 libraries maindeck, wich are actually good fixing draws and filling the curve at 2. i think that's the real problem, i want to get rid of those libraries but dont know how to replace them the best way without ruining the mana curve.
    tarmo and ooze#2 sounds fair and seems a good step forward fighting lavamancers, what do you think?


    Quote Originally Posted by Gustavoslash View Post
    can u post ur Maindeck?

    Well,if ur in play is easier, since u can play knight of the reliquary.
    Usually they dont really reanimate on turn 2.
    Godhands like this, reanimate turn 2 with FoW is hard for everyone
    quote, dont care about godhands. sometimes you'll just face one and lose. the same way youll be losing every single game against belcher, dont get mad. Value every single slot in your sideboard with your brain and tournaments will pay you out. Create your sideboard with "the fear" in your mind and you'll lose in regular situation... and u will still be losing from godhands...

  7. #1007

    Re: [DTB] GW/x Maverick

    Quote Originally Posted by Gustavoslash View Post
    can u post ur Maindeck?

    Well,if ur in play is easier, since u can play knight of the reliquary.

    Karakas is the way to go. And if u can get him in a good Bojuka, everything will be fine.
    Usually they dont really reanimate on turn 2.
    Godhands like this, reanimate turn 2 with FoW is hard for everyone
    That's the sad thing. He's been getting that a lot. At the last (small) tournament with about 35 players, he's been killing opponents T2/T3 with Jin. He went undefeated before Top 8 and lost in Top 8 to Stifle when he tried to Fetch his land on T1. I don't want to concentrate majority of my SB for reanimator as i have to worry for ANT/TES too. I feel like SB is what will win games.

    Anyways, here's my MD:

    3 grove of the burnwillows
    1 plateau
    2 savannah
    1 Taiga
    1 forest
    1 plains
    3 windswept heath
    3 wooded foothill
    4 wasteland
    1 maze of ith
    1 karakas
    1 bojuka bog
    1 horizon canopy
    1 dryad arbor

    4 Knight of the reliquary
    3 Mother of Runes
    2 Aven Mindcensor
    2 Qasali Pridemage
    2 Scavenging Ooze
    1 Terravore
    1 Eternal Witness
    2 Birds of Paradise
    2 Noble Hierarch
    2 Stoneforge Mystic

    2 Sylvan Library
    1 Umezawa's Jitte
    1 Sword of Body and Mind

    3 Punishing Fire
    4 Swords to Plowshare
    4 Green Sun's Zenith
    1 Life from the loam


    I am still debating which sword(s) to use. I need to squeeze a Teeg in there somewhere. Maybe i'll reduce an ooze or take out Witness for teeg or just SB Teeg.

    I really like the punishing fire with Grove. it clears the board really well in mid game.

  8. #1008
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    Re: [DTB] GW/x Maverick

    Quote Originally Posted by Gustavoslash View Post
    can u post ur Maindeck?

    Well,if ur in play is easier, since u can play knight of the reliquary.

    Karakas is the way to go. And if u can get him in a good Bojuka, everything will be fine.
    Usually they dont really reanimate on turn 2.
    Godhands like this, reanimate turn 2 with FoW is hard for everyone
    Even with a "god-hand" Reanimator targets are fairly limited in racing Maverick. The usually targets against GW Maverick are Sphinx of the Steel Wind, Empyrial Archangel, Inkwell Leviathan, and Jin-gitaxias. The other legends are too limited in scope and get bounced by Karakas. Jin does too, but at least he draws the Reanimator player extra cards to find more fatties. It also depends on the speed of which Reanimator is setup.

    Naturally, the non-legend, non-shroud creatures are easily susceptible to StP, and so it makes the matchup somewhat even.

    There is no "secret" tech, just tight play against Reanimator. Being on the play, and mulliganing correctly is the only real strategy involved.

    ---------------------------
    Many people asked why I did not run Aven Mindcensor in my list. I'll try to answer that now, and may repeat it in my tournament report (just got in last night from Vegas). I have always known that Mindcensor is relatively weak due to his mana cost, and his effect is hard to quantify. In my preparation for the tournament, I knew Snapcaster Mage would see a lot of play. I also knew Reanimator is seeing a lot of play near Southwest. Lastly, Dredge was always a problem that pops up in blue-infested metagames. For those reasons, I decided that Aven Mindcensor would not be as useful for a 2nd Ooze and a 4th Mom. Those definitely helped out for SCG Vegas.

    Unfortunately, the lack of extra fliers made life difficult against Delver of Secrets. Luckily, I faced that matchups that I anticipated and tailored the deck for, and wasn't hurt by missing Aven Mindcensors. In that sense, the deck performed flawlessly.
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  9. #1009

    Re: [DTB] GW/x Maverick

    Once Jin lands on T2 and he draws 7...he saves at least 2 or 3 counters and start fetching for more fatties. Maybe my luck and boarding has been bad against reanimator.

  10. #1010
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    Re: [DTB] GW/x Maverick

    It’s a while now I’m testing Maverick with Punishing Fire against a wide variety of matchups and my conclusion is that it’s definitely an improvement over straight GW.

    Many people seem to overly concern against the manabase. I was one of them before testing seriously, and I had to change idea. I played a lot against land-destruction decks like Rock, Tempo and Merfolk, and I smashed them very consistently.

    My conclusion is that the manabase is just fine. On the other hand: consider that many of the top tier decks run 3 colors, equally distributed, often in addiction to colorless lands (Wasteland above all), and it works. Punishing Mav runs 2 colors + a red splash (for just 3-4 cards maindeck) with a total of 22-24 lands (I play 23 with a Maze and a LftL). You just need to stabilize GW at the beginning of the match: you can fetch basic forest, plains or both quite easy (I play 7 fetchlands), or you can play or GSZ for a mana critter, or you can play duals… And any combination of these options is okay to start the game. Later, mana issues totally disappear.

    Don’t forget that, at the beginning of the game, a single shot of red is usually enough: let’s say you start with Punishing Fire in hand, your opponent plays Wasteland and you can provide a single red land. You just start with GW and do your game, then, if opponent plays that Dark Confidant, Grim Lavamancer or Delver of Secrets, you play your red land and burn the critter: and then, who cares if your only red land gets wasted? You gained time to search for another red mana source for your eventual next Punishing Fire, and go on with your GW game. Later, when you’ll have less cards in hand and more mana available, Grove of the Burnwillows will be the nuts.

    My current list:


    4 Windswepth Heat
    2 Wooded Foothills
    1 Arid Mesa
    2 Savannah
    1 Taiga
    1 Plateau
    1 Forest
    1 Plains
    1 Horizon Canopy
    3 Grove of the Burnwillows
    1 Driad Arbor
    1 Karakas
    2 Wasteland
    1 Bojuka Bog
    1 Maze of Ith

    4 Swords to Plowshares
    3 Mother of Runes
    2 Stoneforge Mystic
    3 Aven Mindcensor
    4 Knight of the Reliquary
    1 Qasali Pridemage
    1 Gaddock Teeg
    2 Sylvan Library
    4 Green Sun's Zenith
    3 Noble Hierarch
    1 Scryb Ranger
    1 Scavenging Ooze
    1 Birds of Paradise
    4 Punishing Fire
    1 Life from the Loam
    1 Umezawa's Jitte
    1 Sword of Light and Shadow

    Sideboard
    2 Enlightened Tutor
    2 Ethersworn Canonist
    1 Thorn of Amethyst
    1 Tormod's Crypt
    1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
    1 Phyrexian Metamorph
    2 Choke
    1 Bojuka Bog
    1 Qasali Pridemage
    3 Red Elemental Blast


    In the end I’m playing Bojuka Bog MD: it’s very useful in al lot of matchups (anything with Snapcaster, KotR), it’s a huge improvement for winning game one against problematic matchups like Dredge or Reanimator, and it’s tolerable when it’s CIP ability is useless.

    I also want two Sylvan Library: filter effect is especially relevant here, maximizable, since we can shuffle almost every turn, and opening a huge choice of possibilities, with the countless synergies of the deck.

    @Ruckus: grats on the finish! I’m curios to understand why you concluded that straight GW was more targeted to your meta than Punishing. In the end, you met:

    Round 1 - affinty L
    Round 2 - ANT W
    Round 3 - Blue Junk W
    Round 4- Junk Depths W
    Round 5 - Reanimator W
    Round 6 - Aggro Bant W
    Round 7 - Big Zoo W
    Round 8 - Aggro Bant W
    Top 8 - Canadian Threshold

    Except ANT and Reanimator, which are more or less the same (maybe more side for red splash, with REB – I have 3 more answers to blue spells and Jin Jitaxian), I’d say Punishing Mav really shines against stuff like that. Junk, Bant, Zoo, Canadian are much better matchups for Punishing Mav. Canadian Threshold is especially much easier, Punishing Fire > Delver of Secrets. The same Fabian Gorgzen said that’s his easiest matchup.

    @Gustavoslash: “I’ll probably face Merfolk, Zoo, Goblins, Canadian and Gw”. Punishing Mav is really a no brainer for you. Fire gives the best against tribal and Canadian, and is a big help against Zoo and the Mirror.

    My final impression is that Punishing Mav is less forgiving of misplays and more complicated to master, but it’s really worth the effort.
    Women were the reason I became a monk - and, ah, the reason I switched back... (Morte, from Planescape Troment)

  11. #1011
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    Re: [DTB] GW/x Maverick

    I concluded that straight GW would better for several reasons:
    1. Anticipation of a ton of tempo strategies (Wasteland, Stifle, Daze)
    2. Anticipation of a ton of Graveyard strategies

    For these two reasons I wanted to make sure I had both a stable manabase and room for a 2nd Ooze. Ooze is awesome against Snapcaster Mage and Tarmogoyf. My win against ANT, Blue Junk, Reanimator, Big Zoo, and all the KotR decks are directly attributed to Scavenging Ooze. The traitional GW version has access to Gaea's Cradle, which is otherwise too risky to run in Punishing Fires version. Being able to pop out Ooze + Cradle to nuke a graveyard was something I didn't want to lose.

    I was also lacking 3 Groves, even though I could have borrowed them very easily. I did not perform enough testing with the deck to feel comfortable in a long tournament to play the deck. This is secondary to the reasons listed above.
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  12. #1012
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    Re: [DTB] GW/x Maverick

    Just a detour on the current topic of Red Mav, i know that punishing fires is a form of card advantage in a sense are there any card advantage strategies out there that could be used by mav. sylvan library can only do so much as you can't get more than 2-3 cards as the ouch is too much.

    As for the still hotly discussed red mav issue what ruckus had posted i feel the only concern which is very relevant is the match up against tempo, i feel that loosing the punishing fire strategy is ok but being mana screwed thats another thing which i don't want to happen.

    Red mav creatures are somewhat weaker compared to a straight GW build in the sense lesser equipment online earlier , lesser chance of being able to access equip aswell. If you look at the creature list of mav you'll find that mav's creature are wimpy expect for kotr , thus the need of equips unless you are running flyers then your equips will be awesome.

    I know this was discussed awhile back but, ask yourselves which do think guys is much worth it Running 4 serra avenger + 4 vial or running 4 GsZ + 4 1off creatures

    i will not discuss the pro's and con's of ea card combo but rather state what i feel the biggest factor both card combo has.

    serra avenger + vial
    - an excellent equipment carrier and a solid flying creature
    - dodges countermagics & mana screw

    GsZ + 4 one off's creatures
    - losses the creature base diversity and tutor. => think about this and most likely you'll end up picking the following targets (pridemage, ranger & kotr) teeg or witness.
    - never a bad top deck compared to vial
    - losses the 1st turn arbor play which i think is really a big plus

    at a glace the clear cut winner is gsz + 4 1offs.. but give yourselves a minute and think about this, If i don't have access to 4 gsz and 1 arbor would it hurt the deck significantly.

    i was thinking something like this..

    Lands [21]
    3 wasteland
    3 grove of the burnwillows
    2 taiga
    3 savannah
    4 windswept heath
    2 wooded foothills
    1 plains
    1 forest
    1 karakas
    1 maze of ith

    creatures [22]
    4 mother of runes
    2 birds of paradise
    2 noble hiearch
    4 serra avenger
    3 stoneforge mystic
    2 qasali pridemage
    1 scryb ranger
    1 scavenging ooze
    3 kotr

    spells [17]
    4 aether vial
    4 punishing fires
    4 stp
    3 gsz
    1 jitte
    1 solas
    Last edited by _erbs_; 11-09-2011 at 12:04 AM.

  13. #1013
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    Re: [DTB] GW/x Maverick

    My experience with playing Punishing Fires against decks like Junk and Bant is actually the opposite - Punishing Fires has usually been pretty bad against them.

    Large guys like Tarmogoyfs and Knight of the Reliquary are pretty rough on PFires where even if you recur it, it still isn't enough damage to kill them.

  14. #1014
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    Re: [DTB] GW/x Maverick

    Quote Originally Posted by Esper3k View Post
    My experience with playing Punishing Fires against decks like Junk and Bant is actually the opposite - Punishing Fires has usually been pretty bad against them.

    Large guys like Tarmogoyfs and Knight of the Reliquary are pretty rough on PFires where even if you recur it, it still isn't enough damage to kill them.
    Thats true thats why i raised the concern of mav's creature are still dependent on equips.., with an evasive creature the equipment becomes better..

  15. #1015
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    Re: [DTB] GW/x Maverick

    Obviously, the advantage of Punishing Fire lists against Junk and Bant is not in terms of managing Goyf – from that point of view it’s exactly the same as GW. You have 4 StP, 3-4 MoR, 1-2 Ooze, Maze of Ith… for early Goyfs. Later, your card advantage grants you more and bigger creatures.

    The real improvement of Punishing Fire is the huge increment of removals for their other creatures.

    When I played straight GW, my biggest problem against such decks was the low removal density. With just 4 StP I often lacked that removal for Junk’s early Dark Confidant.

    Against their Stoneforge Mystic? Now I can consistently remove them as they CIP. Therefore, if they fetch Batterskull it’ll be stuck in their hands for a while, and for the time when they’ll have 5 mana through my Wasteland and removals for their mana critters, I’ll have an answer like a Qasali Pridemage or enough mana to fry the germ on the fly (5 mana with one Grove of the Burnwillows = 4 instant damage). If they fatch for Jitte or a sword, again it’s much easier for me to remove any possible carrier, nullifying it.

    Removing a BoP or a Hierarch is often a good move, but when you have just 4 StP won’t you think it’s better to save them for actual issues? With 4 StP + 3-4 recurring Fire the problem does not exist: you fry the mana critter and robustly play your slow-down strategy, while saving your StP for real threats.

    @Esper3k: I’m really surprised you’re doing bad against Junk and Bant, I can just think you’re doing something wrong. Honestly, my actual matchup against them is something like 70-30 among 20+ games. Right yesterday evening, my opponent attacked with a 7/7 KotR, played another one and passed. EoT I tapped Groove and replaced Fire to my hand. In my turn, I fetched for Bojuka Bog (I play one maindeck) with my KotR and fried both his 2/2 KotR with Punishing Fire + Punishing Fire
    Women were the reason I became a monk - and, ah, the reason I switched back... (Morte, from Planescape Troment)

  16. #1016

    Re: [DTB] GW/x Maverick

    rukcus, thanks for the wisdom and well done! You expressed perfectly my ambivalence about Aven Mindcensor (depending on meta obviously.) If only it cost either 1W or 1GW! Then there would be no question for me. As it is I actually tend to build without it, using the slots elsewhere. e.g. I definitely run 2 Scavenging Ooze and 4 Mom mainboard.

    BTW as far as flying stuff goes, besides 1 Birds of Paradise of Fire and Ice replacing one of the 4 Noble Hierachs, a second Scryb Ranger sounds great (generally a flying opponent is Delver or Clique) and besides all the other good stuff it does (the ability to bounce your lands and accelerate your mana early if needed would be huge even without untapping Mom/KotR/whatever) you can surprise people flashing it in -- more of a prospect with two rather than the 1 as a GSZ target. But I love Scryb Ranger.

    Beyond that, if you want more and you were thinking of boarding 1-of something like Daybreak Ranger -- actually you might figure out how to scrounge up one more SB slot and just put 2 Aven Mindcensors in sideboard, which certainly might see themselves boarded in more various situations besides for their flying.

    How was the fetchable Terravore for you? Good? I like that it won't get killed off without great difficulty in the Threshold matchup. As I mentioned recently my preference for extra beaters has been for 2-3 Mirran Crusader, which tend to decidedly swing aggro matchups to one's favor but it's troublesome that he dies to lightning bolt or chain lightning or Grim Lavamancer if you can't protect him. My only concern is that it's one more graveyard dependent creature, but this shouldn't be a problem -- I might do 2 Mirran Crusader 1 Terravore and put Thrun in board.

    I bet the mainboard Eternal Witness and 2 Sylvan Library came off well?

    Well, I look forward to your full report whenever you post it up! (You can just answer this stuff in the report I'm sure, whatever you want, don't feel pressured by these questions.) Well done again!
    Last edited by sir; 11-09-2011 at 08:21 AM.

  17. #1017

    Re: [DTB] GW/x Maverick

    I know the manabase is unstable but maybe you Punishing Fire guys should experiment with one mainboard Kessig Wolf Run (perhaps instead of the 1 mainboard Tower of the Magistrate in Fabian's list.) Curious to see if that could come off decently.

  18. #1018
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    Re: [DTB] GW/x Maverick

    GWr manabase works fine. The majority of the strongest decks in the format play 3 colors, why do you insist on this point? I can quote myself:

    Quote Originally Posted by Morte View Post
    consider that many of the top tier decks run 3 colors, equally distributed, often in addiction to colorless lands (Wasteland above all), and it works. Punishing Mav runs 2 colors + a red splash (for just 3-4 cards maindeck) with a total of 22-24 lands (I play 23 with a Maze and a LftL). You just need to stabilize GW at the beginning of the match: you can fetch basic forest, plains or both quite easy (I play 7 fetchlands), or you can play or GSZ for a mana critter, or you can play duals… And any combination of these options is okay to start the game. Later, mana issues totally disappear.
    About Kessig Wolf Run: it's hardly profitable in Punishing Mav. Main reasons:
    • You don't have so huge amounts of mana (no Cradle)
    • You are always playing spells, thus investing your mana in better ways
    • Trample effect is not needed (I also cut the Terravore)
    • About replacing Tower of the Magistrate: I don't play it, but if I had to choose between Tower and Run, I'd say shutting off equipments for is much better than spending a lot of mana for a pump effect. Similar conclusion for a comparison with my colorless lands (2 Wasteland, 1 Bojuka Bog and 1 Maze of Ith). If I had space, I'll just increase the number of Wasteland.
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  19. #1019
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    Re: [DTB] GW/x Maverick

    Quote Originally Posted by Morte View Post
    @Esper3k: I’m really surprised you’re doing bad against Junk and Bant, I can just think you’re doing something wrong. Honestly, my actual matchup against them is something like 70-30 among 20+ games. Right yesterday evening, my opponent attacked with a 7/7 KotR, played another one and passed. EoT I tapped Groove and replaced Fire to my hand. In my turn, I fetched for Bojuka Bog (I play one maindeck) with my KotR and fried both his 2/2 KotR with Punishing Fire + Punishing Fire
    I think PFires is fine against decks with lots of smaller guys, but against Junk / Bant, again my experience is that it's not that great, especially against Junk where pretty much the only thing you can kill is Bob. Against the NO Bant lists, Pfires is also pretty abyssmal.

    In your example, if this was your opponent who you played 20+ games against, then he was definitely playing incorrectly (unless you had hidden the maindeck Bog until that game). You clearly had an onboard active Knight + Pfires in your yard with Grove and he should've seen that coming and kept his active Knight back instead of attacking with it.

  20. #1020
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    Re: [DTB] GW/x Maverick

    Quote Originally Posted by Esper3k View Post
    I think PFires is fine against decks with lots of smaller guys, but against Junk / Bant, again my experience is that it's not that great, especially against Junk where pretty much the only thing you can kill is Bob. Against the NO Bant lists, Pfires is also pretty abyssmal.
    As I said, one of my worst concerns, with GW Mav against Junk, was the inability to remove an early Bob - quite common situation, since they often start with T1 Thoughtsize hitting your eventual Swords to Plowshares. With Fire it's another story.

    Against NO Bant it's even better: removing Hierarchs and Dryad Arbor slows them down and improves your race, which is very useful in this matchup (not to say it's your only hope against the Hydra, especially pre-board). Sometimes they can find themselves without any disposable green critter and a useless NO stuck in their hand.

    Anyway, I'm not sure to get your point: even if you think that the improvement of Punishing Fire is not dramatic in these matchups, I suppose you recognize that these matchups are improved by Punishing Fire
    (I.E. that the pros of Fire are greater than the cons of the manabase).
    So, what concept are you trying to communicate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Esper3k View Post
    In your example, if this was your opponent who you played 20+ games against, then he was definitely playing incorrectly (unless you had hidden the maindeck Bog until that game). You clearly had an onboard active Knight + Pfires in your yard with Grove and he should've seen that coming and kept his active Knight back instead of attacking with it.
    Nein, he was an unknown opponent found on Cockatrice. Bog maindeck is often unexpected, and can be a very bad surprise
    Women were the reason I became a monk - and, ah, the reason I switched back... (Morte, from Planescape Troment)

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