[Deck] GW/x Maverick

[lordofthepit]

In your example, if this was your opponent who you played 20+ games against, then he was definitely playing incorrectly (unless you had hidden the maindeck Bog until that game). You clearly had an onboard active Knight + Pfires in your yard with Grove and he should've seen that coming and kept his active Knight back instead of attacking with it.

Doesn't matter. He could have led with Punishing Fires on both Knights, then fetched Bog.

[Esper3k]

Anyway, I'm not sure to get your point: even if you think that the improvement of Punishing Fire is not dramatic in these matchups, I suppose you recognize that these matchups are improved by Punishing Fire
(I.E. that the pros of Fire are greater than the cons of the manabase).
So, what concept are you trying to communicate?

No, I think Punishing Fires is an improvement in other matchups (I actually like your list quite a bit), but not in the Junk / NO Bant matchups. Sorry if I was unclear on that. In the NO Bant matchup, for example, I think Batterskull+Exalted/Sword is pretty key to surviving a resolved Progenitus. Having a big Lifelink attacker to race Progenitus is how I've won many games against them.

Doesn't matter. He could have led with Punishing Fires on both Knights, then fetched Bog.

Good catch, I missed that.

[Koby]

Yes, I agree - having Batterskull is something I would miss. Terravore too. Being able to break apart the mirror with Terravore is much more relevant than killing Hierarchs/SFM ad nauseum.

I generally found that the deck that run Dark Confidant typically don't run too many other creatures. SFM, Snapcaster Mage, Clique, maybe Spellstutters, and Goyfs. I don't think they run more than 16 creatures, and if it's that many, they are generally smaller than 3/3. In that sense, I don't care that Bob lives (although I still try to kill him ASAP). Of the decks that play Dark Confidant:
1. BW Deadguy
2. BUG mid-range w/ Jace
3. Esper America

I'm more worried about resolving Thrun, Mom, and KotR; then being able to tutor up QPM as needed to nuke equipment. In these matchups is exactly where I need to see Sylvan Library, and Batterskull to ignore targetted removal. EsperBlade sometimes doesn't even run FoW which makes everything that doesn't cost 2 mana resolve. I am honestly more worried about Jace TMS in these matchups than I am concerned in killing Dark Confidant.

The opportunity cost of running Punishing Fire means that you have to cut creatures. Of the creatures both decks run:

4 Noble Hierarch/BoP
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Mother of Runes
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger

Additionally, most of the Red Mav lists also run Life from the Loam as an admission of the weaker manabase. That's an additional threat that the deck does not run. I don't consider Punishing Fire to be a threat in the strict sense. Ultimately, I feel that the strength of Maverick and what makes it so good against Blue is that its ability to ignore random counters and grind out games with its high threat density. Punishing Fire, while being able to bridge the time until a threat is drawn, does not make that plan better.

I prefer using Terravore, Thrun, and 2nd copies of Scryb Ranger and ScavOoze in place of more removal. I also prefer having a strict 2 color manabase and being able to ignore Wasteland shenanigans.

Like I've said before: to be successful with Maverick means having a healthy paranoia of Wasteland.

[Esper3k]

I also like Thrun and multiple Qasalis. I do admit the Qasalis may be a mental crutch for me, but I really like having 6-7 Exalted guys and multiple ways to deal with artifact / enchantments.

[damionblackgear]

The match-up isn't really improved all that much, if at all. They're bringing in removal against you so having the burn makes you more reliant on it as your creatures will probably be dying. Typical lists go from somewhere between 7-10 removal spells to 12-16. Some of those are all out sweepers to get around Mom's protection.

They want the game to take longer, they can generate a better position (usually holding a Deed over your head while they force you to sacrifice forces). In some lists, Liliana is also being used now which can make generating advantage from the fire combo difficult as you'll be spending the mana to either burn her out, or keep a card in hand.

Yes, you can try and burn them out but they are also using ooze now, which after 1 creature, requires 2 Fires to kill. Keeping open green (to grow it further or remove the Fire) isn't an issue when you're aware of the situation. So, sometimes, you'll only get one shot with the fire.

An opponent's knowledge of their deck matters when testing. A person who's never played the deck before is not the same as a person who's well practiced with it. I would say test it out against someone who you know to be familiar with the deck and more of it's actual play style, if possible. Granted, the first time you bog them it may be a surprise but, it wouldn't be a stretch for them to assume you have a Bog once they see a Knight.

I'm with, Esper3k. The correct swing was 0 Knights. That way if you do what you tried, they can either sac a land after or bog you as well. That would've made sure that both Knights were out of range of a single Fire (or two if they wasted their own land). it should've have been a difficult play to see since you had a Grove with a fire in the yard. They could have also been able to deal with your Knight which could no longer risk being on the assault (your bog having been used). The next turn, it's 2;1 on Knights and they're chances of topdecking removal are much better than your chances. If you don't do your play, they swing the next turn with a knight up to deal with any tricks you come up with (I'm assuming their Knight's were bigger than yours.

That deck is designed to be defensive. The only offensive action that should be taken is defensive aggression (unless it's to win the game). The entire deck is designed to be reactively proactive (I know, it sounds funny but, it is). Swinging creatures blindly into what should be considered a threat (your Knight) is not the way that deck is supposed to be played.

@lordofthepit - It does matter since if that was the option to bog is still available with the Fire, or its trigger, on the stack (his knight fetched Bog and can't be used to get a second Grove). Losing 1 Knight (you Fire --> you recur --> they Bog --> you Bog --> 1 Knight dies) is better than both. Sometimes, a sacrifice must be made. Either way, the best thing you could do is try to land the Fire on both, then fetch the bog. That way there is no way to save whatever got hit.

-----

I can't say that it's better in either matchup since the Bant matchup could be running Stifle alongside their Knights (which may also have a bog main). Them stifling your bog, or Knight trigger would be all the more devastating. Even countering the Fire would force your plan to fail.

* you all finished while I was writing this.

[Morte]

@lordofthepit - It does matter since if that was the option to bog is still available with the Fire, or its trigger, on the stack (his knight fetched Bog and can't be used to get a second Grove). Losing 1 Knight (you Fire --> you recur --> they Bog --> you Bog --> 1 Knight dies) is better than both. Sometimes, a sacrifice must be made. Either way, the best thing you could do is try to land the Fire on both, then fetch the bog. That way there is no way to save whatever got hit.

Maybe I'm not understanding what you want to say, but lordofthepit is right: if you shoot a Fire to each of the # KotR, let them resolve so each KotR is dealt 2 damages, and then put Bog into play, as the CIP ability of the Bog resolves and opponent's graveyard is removed all KotR's toughness becomes 0 and they die, no matter what land sacking effect anybody put on the stack.

[Esper3k]

Yeah what your opponent really should've done is fetched up a Wasteland instead of attacking and killed your Grove, heh.

[Morte]

That's right. Underestimating the Burnwillows is a fatal mistake

[Esper3k]

That's right. Underestimate the Burnwillows is a fatal mistake

I concur! I used to play a lot of Big Zoo + Punishing Fires and it was just hilarious against other aggro decks.

[damionblackgear]

Maybe I'm not understanding what you want to say, but lordofthepit is right: if you shoot a Fire to each of the # KotR, let them resolve so each KotR is dealt 2 damages, and then put Bog into play, as the CIP ability of the Bog resolves and opponent's graveyard is removed all KotR's toughness becomes 0 and they die, no matter what land sacking effect anybody put on the stack.

Yes, lordofthepit and I said the same thing, "land the Fire on both (2 damage on both), then fetch the bog."

My point was your Fire's recursion triggers. In doing so, it allows for your opponent to fetch their own Bog, removing your Fire before it can be recurred. That means they they lose one Knight and both Side's Bog's are spent.

Again, this is all assuming they did the right thing and didn't swing.

[Qweerios]

I have been hopping back and forth from the Rock and Mav forums with this Junk deck that I now play for a few months. This deck has seen many top 4s in local and weekly tournaments. I don't know if it is more of a Junk, Rock, or Mav deck but I feel it is closer to Mav simply because of the presence of mana dorks, SFM, GSZ, and the absence of Hymn and Goyf.


Creatures (20)
1 Birds of Paradise
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary

Spells (14)
2 Thoughtseize
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate

Artifacts (3)
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Batterskull

Lands (23)
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Sideboard (15)
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Krosan Grip
2 Duress
2 Path to Exile
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Stony Silence


What is most notable about this version is:

-It is very strong against combo decks (Won 9/10 of my best of 3s);
-It has a lot of removal and finding the right answers at the right time is relatively easy;
-It has a strong mid and late game

Some of the downsides of traditional GW mav include:

-Slightly more vulnerable manabase (beware of stifle!), although, consistently fetching for basics is not a problem.
-Isn't as good in the mirror. Mother of Runes and Mirran Crusader are troublesome.

I have put a lot of testing and effort into the sideboard and it has been very consistent. Against Combo decks I can comfortably side out the entire SFM package in favor of combo hate while against more common aggro and aggro-control decks I can simply remove the more useless cards from the maindeck in favor of added removal.

A point I feel strongly about is the importance of SoLaS. I used to play SoFaF instead and I have never truly taken advantage of it except against combo decks when I couldn't side out the entire SFM package and SoFaF became the best SFM target. Protection from white is very relevant against decks packing StP, Dismember, and Snapcaster, especially if they also pack PtE in the SB as lots of Stoneblade decks do. A single swing from a SoLaS on a control player is a lot of pressure when you begin taking back countered or killed Bobs, SFM, Pridemage, and most importantly, Eternal Witness from your graveyard. Recurring Witnesses grabing Vindicates, Wastelands, and Swords to Plowshares has often sealed the deal in long attrition games against various Jace.dec.

Also, avoiding Vindicate because it is "clunky" is a mistake. In a deck packing 8 T1 mana dorks and 4 Wastelands, a T2 Vindicate is anything but clunky. Vindicate shines most against Combo on their fragile manabase and as Creature/Equipment/Planeswalker removal against most popular board-controlling decks where it complements StP and Pridemage beautifully.

My toughest matchups so have been NO/Pattern Combo and RUG Tempo. Pattern combo is difficult to hate since they get to choose if they want to kill you via their graveyard or Progenitus. Establishing a hateful board against them is very difficult, hence the Mindcensors in the SB. Decks packing Snapcaster alongside Lightning Bolts, Spell Snare, and Stifle are very hard to outlast because their hate and card advantage is persistent throughout the entire early to midgame phases.

Any suggestions for improvement?

[Al-ucard]

I have been hopping back and forth from the Rock and Mav forums with this Junk deck that I now play for a few months. This deck has seen many top 4s in local and weekly tournaments. I don't know if it is more of a Junk, Rock, or Mav deck but I feel it is closer to Mav simply because of the presence of mana dorks, SFM, GSZ, and the absence of Hymn and Goyf.


Creatures (20)
1 Birds of Paradise
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary

Spells (14)
2 Thoughtseize
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate

Artifacts (3)
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Batterskull

Lands (23)
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Sideboard (15)
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Krosan Grip
2 Duress
2 Path to Exile
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Stony Silence


What is most notable about this version is:

-It is very strong against combo decks (Won 9/10 of my best of 3s);
-It has a lot of removal and finding the right answers at the right time is relatively easy;
-It has a strong mid and late game

Some of the downsides of traditional GW mav include:

-Slightly more vulnerable manabase (beware of stifle!), although, consistently fetching for basics is not a problem.
-Isn't as good in the mirror. Mother of Runes and Mirran Crusader are troublesome.

I have put a lot of testing and effort into the sideboard and it has been very consistent. Against Combo decks I can comfortably side out the entire SFM package in favor of combo hate while against more common aggro and aggro-control decks I can simply remove the more useless cards from the maindeck in favor of added removal.

A point I feel strongly about is the importance of SoLaS. I used to play SoFaF instead and I have never truly taken advantage of it except against combo decks when I couldn't side out the entire SFM package and SoFaF became the best SFM target. Protection from white is very relevant against decks packing StP, Dismember, and Snapcaster, especially if they also pack PtE in the SB as lots of Stoneblade decks do. A single swing from a SoLaS on a control player is a lot of pressure when you begin taking back countered or killed Bobs, SFM, Pridemage, and most importantly, Eternal Witness from your graveyard. Recurring Witnesses grabing Vindicates, Wastelands, and Swords to Plowshares has often sealed the deal in long attrition games against various Jace.dec.

Also, avoiding Vindicate because it is "clunky" is a mistake. In a deck packing 8 T1 mana dorks and 4 Wastelands, a T2 Vindicate is anything but clunky. Vindicate shines most against Combo on their fragile manabase and as Creature/Equipment/Planeswalker removal against most popular board-controlling decks where it complements StP and Pridemage beautifully.

My toughest matchups so have been NO/Pattern Combo and RUG Tempo. Pattern combo is difficult to hate since they get to choose if they want to kill you via their graveyard or Progenitus. Establishing a hateful board against them is very difficult, hence the Mindcensors in the SB. Decks packing Snapcaster alongside Lightning Bolts, Spell Snare, and Stifle are very hard to outlast because their hate and card advantage is persistent throughout the entire early to midgame phases.

Any suggestions for improvement?

To improve tempo match, play less double colored cards like vindicate (knight is 4 off, no discusion) and reduce your cc. Also with less green creatures GSZ is not so good so I will start reducing this 2 cards. Then I think I will play 4 or 0 Discard.

[Maëlig]

Any suggestions for improvement?

Play MoR. It's one of the best cards in classic maverick lists, and it gets even better when you're running bob. I would probably go - 1 witness - 1 SFM - 1 vindicate (I agree the card is great here, but with 4 KotR and 4 GSZ your curve is already quite high) - 1 land (22 should be enough with 8 birds) + 4 MoR. I would also run SoFaF over SoLaS but I guess that's more of a personal choice. Looks very solid otherwise.
Oh, and is hierarch really better than birds in a heavily splashed list? Just wondering, I don't have any definitive opinion on that yet.

I agee PF is kind of lackluster vs junk despite hitting bob, but it's really not that bad vs bant imo. It doesn't just kill hierarch / dryad, but in fact every single creature they're playing outside of KotR and progenitus in the NO variants (which are worse atm and should see less play). A recurring way to handle clique and even SFM or snapcaster (which can be dangerous equipped) is nothing to sneer at. It's also great vs jace. I would argue that it's actually one of the key cards in the MU.

[Esper3k]

Just wondering - how is your list considerably better against combo?

Maindeck, it looks like you just gain 2 Thoughtseize at the cost of Mindcensors?

[Qweerios]

The Vindicates have been really good against combo, especially after they brainstorm away lands they don't need. Wastelands and Vindicates buy me enough time to get a lock piece. Bob also becomes valuable after 1-2 land destruction spells. I can also fetch Witness to add more land destruction when I hit 4 mana. G1 is the hardest obviously.

[bakofried]

So tonight I'll be playing, essentially, the list that got 5th at Ovinosex. Levin's been pushing it quite a bit, so I figured I'd give it a whirl. For those unaware, here's the list:
Artifacts:
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
Creatures:
3x Aven Mindcensor
1x Birds of Paradise
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Mother of Runes
3x Noble Hierarch
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze
2x Scryb Ranger
4x Stoneforge Mystic
Enchantments:
2x Sylvan Library
Instants:
4x Swords to Plowshares
Legendary Artifacts:
1x Umezawa's Jitte
Legendary Creatures:
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
Planeswalkers:
2x Elspeth, Knight Errant
Sorceries:
4x Green Sun's Zenith
Basic Lands:
2x Forest
1x Plains
Lands:
2x Horizon Canopy
1x Misty Rainforest
4x Savannah
4x Wasteland
4x Windswept Heath
Land Creatures:
1x Dryad Arbor
Legendary Lands:
1x Gaea's Cradle
1x Karakas
Sideboard:
3x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Phyrexian Metamorph
3x Faerie Macabre
1x Qasali Pridemage
3x Choke
2x Krosan Grip
1x Gaddock Teeg

So, thoughts? It's a generic enough list, without many personal touches, I think it's a nice start for a relatively unknown meta.

[Esper3k]

I think the list is fine - I'd really like to fit at least 1 Scavenging Ooze maindeck somewhere though. That guy is just too amazing with GSZ + Cradle.

[bakofried]

Oh shit I forgot to add him. Yeah, he's in there, human error.

[Koby]

Hey check this out!

Feature match @ SCG Vegas

[Esper3k]

Nice! Did you consider getting Ooze at any point to just eat away his yard?