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Thread: MUD-Stax

  1. #1

    MUD-Stax

    I apologize in advance if there is an established MUD-Stax thread, but while a forum search an page scan revealed all sorts of Stax builds, I found no MUD-Stax build. This deck bears a close resemblance to MUD-Stompy. However, unlike MUD-Stompy, this deck focuses more on disruption and becomes almost as effective a prison deck as the Vintage version.

    MUD-Stax

    Lands:
    4x Ancient Tomb
    4x City of Traitors
    4x Crystal Vein
    4x Wasteland
    2x Darksteel Citadel

    Creatures:
    4x Lodestone Golem
    4x Steel Hellkite
    4x Metalworker
    2x Precursor Golem

    Artifacts:
    4x Grim Monolith
    4x Lotus Petal
    4x Trinisphere
    4x Tangle Wire
    4x Sphere of Resistance
    4x Chalice of the Void
    2x Mox Diamond
    2x Crucible of Worlds

    Sideboard:
    4x Relic of Progenitus
    3x Smokestack
    3x Ratchet Bomb
    2x Wurmcoil Engine
    2x Winter Orb
    1x Crucible of Worlds


    Card explanations:

    Most of the deck is a standard Stax shell (albeit with Smokestack in side instead of main). The only cards that I can see being somewhat unusual are:

    Crystal Vein - I want to maximize my chances of getting a sphere effect on turn 1. To that effect, I need to maximize the amount of 2-mana producing lands that I can play. While crystal vein isn't my favorite land in the deck, it's the best option available as far as running more than 8 2-mana producing lands.

    Precursor Golem - Originally, this deck ran only 8 finishers - 4 Lodestone Golems and 4 Steel Hellkites, as well as 20 lands. However, I found myself getting manaflooded quite frequently, and often losing a game because I couldn't get a win-condition out. The thing is, the deck can't control the game forever. So it needs win-cons, and it needs those win-cons to lead it to victory by turn 8-10 at the latest. So the deck needed 2 more win-cons, which themselves needed to be either 1) Beefy or 2) a Control piece in their own right. The initial candidate was Sundering Titan, however I found him to be too expensive, especially when I started playing out Sphere of Resistance. Precursor golem looked like the next best option, especially since it is often a 2-turn clock all by itself. Of course, it has negative synergy with Lodestone Golem in this deck, but since I usually don't draw both, it's a risk that I'm willing to take, and it has otherwise paid off very nicely. Note: When New Phyrexia comes out, this card is likely to be replaced, either by Metamorph or that new artifact dragon.


    Test Results

    Dredge/Ichorid - Extremely positive 80-20. MUD-Stax virtually has game 1 in the bag, as sphere effects are especially killer on a deck that runs only 11 lands or so. Game 2 brings Relic of Progenitus to further hamper their strategy.

    Merfolk - Very positive 70-30.Force of Will, Daze, and Aether Vial can be a bit of a problem. But not enough of one. That deck's curve is so tight that resolving a single sphere effect either invalidates half their deck or completely screws their development. Game 2 Ratchet Bomb comes in and hurts them even more since their curve is so tight and so many of their permanents not only have the same cmc, but are easily reached by ratchet bomb. The only thing to watch out for is Rebuild or Hurkyl's Recall - but again, those cards can be made uncastable.

    Goblins - Very positive 70-30 (actually, slightly higher. This matchup is easier than Merfolk). Again, their curve (at least as far as what they will usually hardcast) is very tight, and resolved sphere effects screw with their development something fierce. Ratchet bomb comes in once again, this time primarily to deal with tokens.

    ANT/T.E.S. - Very positive 75-25. Sphere effects for the win once again. Deck remains the same post-side because the matchup is so good.

    High Tide/ Time Spiral - Very positive 75-25, for the same reasons as ANT and T.E.S. Post side bring in Winter Orb, and have a good laugh.

    Cephalid Breakfast - Positive 65-35. This deck is why Relic is being run (the matchup against Dredge/Ichorids is positive enough to not bother). Game 1 can be tough, as it can be quite difficult to set up a powerful enough lock to prevent the combo. Games 2 and 3 bring in Stack, extra Crucible, and Relic, while taking out the Precursor Golems, Metalworkers, and 2 Hellkites. Game one manages to be 50/50. Games 2 and 3, however, is where it is won.

    Zoo - Positive 60-40. While the sphere effects help a lot, they manage to frequently get to 3 mana or more. And their spells are all so high-quality that it can be tough to play against them. Post side bring in Winter Orb and Wurmcoil, and that makes the matchup more favorable.

    Elf Combo - Very positive 70-30. It plays very similarly as the storm combo decks, except they can sometimes produce enough mana to actually start casting stuff. While they won't combo out as effectively as they would against other decks, they sometimes don't need to. Post sideboarding bring in ratchet bomb to kill all their 1-drops.

    Affiinity - Positive 65-35. Game 1 is not bad, although a little tough if you're on the draw, but still a good matchup either way. Sphere effects wreck them, and a resolved hellkite can completely shut them down. Games 2-3 bring ratchet bomb, which just reinforces the problems they faced game 1.

    Team America - Slightly positive 55-45. The amount of control pieces they run can be problematic, and prevent us from playing enough control pieces early on to keep them from playing their extremely efficient beaters. Game 2-3 bring smokestack, crucible, and winter orb in, taking out precursor golem and metalworker (because they WILL remove them). It may also be tempting to bring in relic/tormod's crypt to screw with Tombstalker, but don't. You won't reliably screw the tombstalker, and you will screw yourself as you take out something else.

    Eva Green - Neutral 50-50. The most problematic matchup I've had so far. Game 1 often depends on who goes first, as they will almost always have a Thoughtseize or Duress to get rid of sphere effects. Then they have artifact/permanent removal. And land removal. That deck packs so much discard and permanent removal that the game can get very one-sided quickly. However, it does run a very tight curve, and so you can still try to screw that up for them. The main issue is that there really isn't a good sideboard for this, other than winter orb, they just play too many permanents for smokestack to be able to control them before they kill you. That being said, the main plan works well against them, so it's not a bad matchup, just not particularly good either.

    I'll post more matchups later, when I have time.

    Please let me know what you think I'm doing wrong or could be doing better!
    Last edited by diabloknk; 04-20-2011 at 10:40 AM.

  2. #2

    Re: MUD-Stax

    I really like this deck idea and the new set just leaked.

    Porcelain Legionaire, Phyrexian Metamorph and Moltensteel Dragon are all exactly the kick in the pants this deck needed. Metamorph duplicates your Dragons, Wurmcoils and your opponents Dreadnoughts, Tombstalkers, Progenitus and Emrakuls.

    Legionnaire is a fantastic two drop due to the first strike.

    Moltentail is a solid 4 drop artifact dragon since it flies and you can trade your life to pump it and do the last bit of damage.

    Moltensteel Dragon 4PP
    Artifact Creature - Dragon
    4/4
    (P) can be paid with R or 2 life
    Flying
    P: Moltensteel Dragon gets +1/+0 until end of turn.

    Replace the crappier cards with these and this deck is ready to fly.

  3. #3

    Re: MUD-Stax

    Here's what I posted in your other identical thread....

    You should use Tormod's Crypt in the board instead of relic.

    I would say cut all of the petals and +2 diamond -2 citadel +4 Rishidan Port. That leaves two slots that should then more lands. Most likely Mishra's Factory.

    You should maindeck 4 smokestack 4 crucible. It's the reason stax is good. That means you should run 23-24 lands and a set of diamonds. Hellkite is awesome, but I would cut the golems. They aren't good for 5 mana.

    As far as other things in the maindeck to cut for smokestacks and the like, I would say go down to three Trinisphere and three sphere of resistance. Possibly three hellkite.

    If you want to play prison, don't play it in just your sideboard. MUD stax is a lot of fun, but you have to make sure not to get caught up in what that Meandeck MUD deck is doing and remember you're doing something different.

    Should have Phyrexian Revoker in the board also.


    You shouldn't post two threads. Just edit your OP next time.
    Last edited by kusumoto; 04-20-2011 at 08:34 AM. Reason: card tags
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  4. #4

    Re: MUD-Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by kusumoto View Post
    Here's what I posted in your other identical thread....

    You should use Tormod's Crypt in the board instead of relic.

    I would say cut all of the petals and +2 diamond -2 citadel +4 Rishidan Port. That leaves two slots that should then more lands. Most likely Mishra's Factory.

    You should maindeck 4 smokestack 4 crucible. It's the reason stax is good. That means you should run 23-24 lands and a set of diamonds. Hellkite is awesome, but I would cut the golems. They aren't good for 5 mana.

    As far as other things in the maindeck to cut for smokestacks and the like, I would say go down to three Trinisphere and three sphere of resistance. Possibly three hellkite.

    If you want to play prison, don't play it in just your sideboard. MUD stax is a lot of fun, but you have to make sure not to get caught up in what that Meandeck MUD deck is doing and remember you're doing something different.

    Should have Phyrexian Revoker in the board also.


    You shouldn't post two threads. Just edit your OP next time.
    I tried a more control-oriented stax approach at one point. My problem was that the opponents would often get something out t1 (or even t2 if I was on the draw) without me having any control pieces out. Then they'd just go to town on me. I've found that Smokestack works best against those decks that don't play a lot of permanents quickly, meaning most of the more control-oriented decks. I figured that I needed to be able to get a sphere effect, preferably trinisphere, on turn 1 almost all the time. Which meant running 4-of every sphere effect, and running whatever fast mana I could get my hands on so I can cast my more expensive sphere effects turn 1. However, this then meant that I needed to either 1) run less long-term control pieces or 2)less finishers.

    I initially opted for more control, and so for a while the only win-cons were my lodestone golems and a pair of hellkites. However, I found that even with 4-of smokestack and crucible, I would still often be unable to control the late-game, as I couldn't reliably count on getting smokestack fast enough to control the game (due to the fact that there is nothing else I can run that closely simulates smokestack's effect). So I opted for making my deck just win faster, and ran more win-cons, and started reducing my smokestack/crucible count. Eventually, I completely moved smokestack to the sb in favor of win-conditions, because I was finding that with my plan no longer being to control the entire game, I wanted it less and less, except against the occasional permanent-light deck.

    Can't remember why I took out the Rishadan Ports in favor of Darksteel Citadel. I'll run them in place of citadel and see what happens.

    Also, as for the double-post, this was supposed to be the original and only thread. I don't know how the other one got posted. Probably clicked "submit" instead of "preview post" by accident at some point, or something.

  5. #5
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    Re: MUD-Stax

    This thread is the new thunderbluff!!!!!1! Have you done any legitimate testing with the deck? Or are you just throwing made up match percentages out there? I don't see how you can have such good tribal MUs when aether vial nullifies most of your cards. Also, how is dredge such a good MU? Even if your on the play, they just DDD until your dead.
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  6. #6
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    Re: MUD-Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by beastman View Post
    I don't see how you can have such good tribal MUs when aether vial nullifies most of your cards.
    Id like to know that too. Maybe chalice for 1. Or tangle Wire.

    How about using revoker to shut vial down?

  7. #7

    Re: MUD-Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by beastman View Post
    This thread is the new thunderbluff!!!!!1! Have you done any legitimate testing with the deck? Or are you just throwing made up match percentages out there? I don't see how you can have such good tribal MUs when aether vial nullifies most of your cards. Also, how is dredge such a good MU? Even if your on the play, they just DDD until your dead.
    To address your concerns:

    1: Testing process

    I have only posted the matchups where I have had a minimum of 30 matches against the deck. That is why I am not posting a Lands matchup, Enchantress Matchup, CB-Top, or Death and Taxes matchup. The testing process was conducted via 3 formats:

    1. My playgroup. Consists of 7 players who run a variety top decks. While none of us are pro players, we do have access to the top decks.
    2. My LGS. There is a core of Legacy players at my LGS that also run fairly competitive decks.
    3. Magic Workstation. I can't test with my LGS and playgroup all the time, so I have to go further afield to get 30 matches for everything. If I only posted my results from playgroup/LGS testing, I would only have matchups for Goblins, Merfolk, and ANT.

    2: Aether Vial

    Aether Vial is certainly problematic, but it's not the auto-screw that you seem to be assuming. Here is why:

    1. If they don't have it turn 1, it's either going to be useless because of chalice, or near-useless after spheres make it cost a lot to cast.
    2. They don't always have it turn 1.
    3. Even if they do get it out quickly, it's not that fast of a card. By the time they can get going with it, Ratchet Bomb or Steel Hellkite are ready to take care of it or whatever the hell it plays.

    3: How does it beat Dredge?

    The answer to this is: how effective is dredge if it can't cast Dread Return? The answer is: not very. And the deck relies on casting Dread Return for no mana through flashback. With a Trinisphere out, or hell, even a Sphere of Resistance, it becomes a more challenging. Especially since I often destroy the 1 or 2 lands they play. And even before they try to cast dread return, I'm screwing with their Breakthroughs and such, which are also very important. It's not that Dredge can't beat my deck, it's that my deck slows it down so much that they often can't do anything before I kill them, or am at least ready for them.

    4: Extremely positive MUs

    I'll admit that my test results aren't as reliable as they would be if I was testing at major tournaments against pros for a long stretch of time. I don't have access to those kinds of results - nobody in my playgroup or LGS has ever gone to the Pro Tour, although a number have had the odd PTQ top 8. Also, I am usually busy on weekends, so I rarely have an opportunity to attend a major legacy tournament.

    But that's only part of it. The metagame is unprepared for such a deck. The only Stax deck that I know of that has had any tournament success in Legacy has been White Stax, which plays very differently than MUD-Stax. If the deck becomes popular, then yes, the results will be different as people prepare for it. I'm sure that if everybody starts running 4x hurkyl's recall in their sideboards, then the results would probably be different.

    Also, this deck is designed against the current metagame. Most of the top decks have fairly tight curves, and run 20 or fewer lands, which makes this deck particularly effective against them. Against a deck that runs 23-24 lands and a more spread out curve, the matchups are tougher (for instance, I have only won 3 out of 8 matches against UWb Landstill, and the first match I won was simply because the opponent had never seen my deck before, and didn't know what to counter).

    I can only post those results that I have, and they are very favorable for this deck.

    I hope that answers your questions
    Last edited by diabloknk; 04-20-2011 at 04:26 PM.

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