When I say reanimator "fizzles" I'm speaking about getting the first creature out say turn 4, I have rarely won a game when it took me so long. Reanimator should be explosive, otherwise you Will get raced bye kotf and goyf.
srlsy How often can you choose who you reanimate ? have you played a lot with the deck ? I have tested the crap out of it, because I love it. And the biggest problem pre yin was: I was always drawing the wrong creatures, who where totally buggers against the deck I was playing, really you do Not want to reanimate a inky against goblins, you do Not want to see a archon/sphinx against combo, and if you pay 8-9lives to get them, well that is just stupid.
You just do not have the luxury of having entomb always!
Now with Yin, I really have less of these problems, he is an acceptable target against control, aggro and combo. You have 12 counters ! and 4 hand disruption! really, you CAN keep him alive without much problems ( 1/4 off your deck protects this guy ! if that isn't enough .. )
So I will resume: Yin isnt always the Best target, but he is always good. Thus you can play 4, thus making the deck more Consistend, which was the real problem of reanimator.
I HAVE tested it and I tell you it Is an improvement, but nonetheless is reanimator still not good enough wich I'm sad about.
... Sorry if I'm not following you because I really am not able to. Reading your post makes me feel that you're supporting Jin because the testings you've done with him winning games for you is creating the 'false' impression that he's good. It's like if I played Goyfs in Landstills and I won with Goyfs for many games, I start concluding that Goyfs are awesome in Landstill and I start playing them until I realized it was the other cards/scenarios that made Goyf good. What I'm saying is that the wins associated with Jin are really win-more, at least at a theoretical level (I've done no testing). Jin still never does anything pre-reanimation, nor does he do anything post-reanimation (except when you have moved to EOT phase but there is still the post-reanimation phase before EOT where he loses to a ton of removal).
So you agree with me that playing Jin does not offer any benefit to speeding Reanimator right? That was the point on my argument: you mentioned Reanimator fizzles and propose that Jin reduces this, and I argue that Jin does nothing to help reanimator not fizzle.
If you entomb, you choose. If you don't, you careful study into creatures that matter. Sure, if you run a split of 4 creatures that most reanimator lists do, you may discard a subpar creature that is reanimated against a specific matchup where it sucks e.g. Inkwell against Goblins. Now, does playing 4 Jin help with the no-entomb hands? You claim it does. I would agree if Jin is that powerful enough to win games by himself i.e. if I always get Jin in play I win. That was the point of my argument. You don't, and playing 4 Jin is definitely wrong, because when you do draw an entomb, that 2nd to 4th Jin is taking up slots where you could have TUTORED for the best target.Srlsy How often can you choose who you reanimate ? have you played a lot with the deck ? I have tested the crap out of it, because I love it. And the biggest problem pre yin was: I was always drawing the wrong creatures, who where totally buggers against the deck I was playing, really you do Not want to reanimate a inky against goblins, you do Not want to see a archon/sphinx against combo, and if you pay 8-9lives to get them, well that is just stupid.
Lol. You pay 9 life animating Inky/Sphinx against combo/goblins, what about Mr Jin? 10 life that dies to removal instead of actually staying in play to block? i sense an exhume argument coming up, and if you do bring that argument in, I think you missed the point entirely, because exhuming Jin and exhuming Inky offers the same benefit (i.e. not paying life).
I agree, but when you do draw entomb, you'll be sad that you don't have powerful targets to tutor for in specific matchups when all you're playing is 4 Jin and 1 Platinum Emperion.You just do not have the luxury of having entomb always!
What kind of control decks do you play against? You have 12 counters and 4 discard. Control has 12+ counters and 8-10 removal depending on the build. Don't forget, you need to draw combinations of counters/discard + entomb/study + dude + reanimation spells to pull off a 5/4 that dies to all that removal. Good luck.Now with Yin, I really have less of these problems, he is an acceptable target against control, aggro and combo. You have 12 counters ! and 4 hand disruption! really, you CAN keep him alive without much problems ( 1/4 off your deck protects this guy ! if that isn't enough .. )
You said it yourself. He isn't the best target. He is always good, as long as he draws you the cards, but can you guarantee that a 5/4 on turn 4 can survive EOT to draw 7 cards? You play 4 Jin to make the deck more consistent, uhm, like post-reanimation phase? Jin does NOT help reanimator be consistent at all pre-reanimation phase. That IS the real problem of reanimator. If reanimator's problem is winning the game after reanimating creatures, then the deck is really a tier 4 deck. It's a tier 2 deck because it has problem getting the creature out, not protecting it. Now if you play 4 Jin, you're going to have the same problems getting creatures out, but more problems protecting it.So I will resume: Yin isnt always the Best target, but he is always good. Thus you can play 4, thus making the deck more Consistend, which was the real problem of reanimator.
I HAVE tested it and I tell you it Is an improvement, but nonetheless is reanimator still not good enough wich I'm sad about.
Decks that I care about:
Steel Stompy
UWx Landstill
Dreadstalker
DDFT (10% practice)
Mangara on MWS? You must be masochistic. -kiblast
Forgot to mention and add in the most important part:
How is a 5/4 on turn 3-4 going to close games (even assuming if you didn't lose 10 life to a reanimate spell). In particular, refering to the SCG list, how is a 5/4 going to close games given that he plays 4 Jin and an Emperion and Jin being legendary?
Don't forget that winning the game is a big part of playing MTG. Smart opponents don't scoop even if they discarded down to 0 cards and you are drawing 7 cards a turn, if you can't beat through and win with a 5/4. At least I see problems when an opponent has a 5/6 Goyf and all you have in your deck is Jin and Emperion. Your opponents can still play topdecked creatures and you only have 4 FoW (at this point Jin has killed yourThoughtseizes too just FYI).
Decks that I care about:
Steel Stompy
UWx Landstill
Dreadstalker
DDFT (10% practice)
Mangara on MWS? You must be masochistic. -kiblast
Agree, the scg list is far from optimal.
I tested with 4 yin, 1iona, 1 sphinx, 1inky so I Stil have every utility creature I need against certain decks, for the times when I do draw entomb.
I play 3 reanimates, 4 exhume and 2 animate dead ( 9 reanimate spells ) So most of the times I am not paying any lives.
With Yin the deck plays diffrent, It is more like a combo/Control deck, and you can afford to play it a bit slower.
But anyhow, I understand your points, but really you haven't tested him, so you really don't know what you are talking about. You cannot just diss a card by saying "If's and but's" :)
He Is better in the deck then that he looks on paper, and Is an improvement for the deck :) I recommand that you test him. if you care enough...
But my guess is you'r just randomly dissing Yin.
I can see people are starting to recognize Reanimator has been good now for awhile, to bad, I've been cleaning up in my local circuit with this deck while players are skimping on graveyard hate and running decks that fold to Iona or Blazing Archon.
I don't think the Jin is a four of however, there is something to say for redundancy. Simply running more discard, reanimate, creatures has been an effective strategy for me. It was difficult to find room but once I moved Thoughtseize to the board I was able to increase my turn 2 reanimate significantly. I know what you are thinking, "Cut Thoughtseize? You must be crazy!" I thought the same thing - until I tried it out and proceeded to top 8 4 tournaments in a row, getting to the finals twice, winning once. The thing is game 1 Thoughtseize just slows you down fro playing Entomb, Study, or Researcher on turn one so you can reanimate turn two. The other issue was maintaining enough Blue spells to support Force and a single Misdirection. Post board you bring in the Thoughtseizes to fight hate and generally play a slower game.
Personally, I'm giving Reanimator a rest until the Misstep fever dies down a bit
Calls for banning are almost always the scrubs way out. Real men view a challenge as something to overcome, a puzzle to solve, an opportunity to be had, and the source of evolution.
Lets just hope what Wotc will unban mystical tutor this June. After all, they printed MM and Psychic Surgery. it will be a great boost to the deck
I agree with everything, im also testing a list with 4 Jin 1 Iona 1 Platinum Angel (im gonna get my ass kicked with this choice) and 1 Sphinx, my reanimations spells are 4 reanimates, 4 exhume and 1 animate dead, probably will remove a reanimate to 2 animate dead, the gameplan is like you described more of a control/combo, its still early to say if reanimate makes a comeback or stay as it is, but diss a card like many have done without testing it is stupid, forget old reanimate gameplan about the biggest baddest 99/99 impossible to kill, when they banned the tutor this was over, you can still make a good score on a field unprepared but nothing more, with this guy you must build the deck to protect it and make sure you dont die to the table (easier said than done it but doable), even if he dies in the oponent turn after you draw 7 you have good chances of coming back. But still the deck needs a lot of work and playtesting, today i'm gonna test the hell out against bant, they have removal counters and pressure, so its a good start point.
ps: Metalwalker, you have very good points in theory, but reanimator as you described, about reanimating the best body in 1 or 2 turn is a piece of shitt without mystical, so you need to try a diferent route, if you want to be able to survive in this metagame with this deck you would be better testing this guy out instead of dishing it out completely without any idea of what this guy can do.
ps ps: Sorry for my bad english, its not my language
Suddenly, Fluffy realized she wasn't quite like the other bunnies anymore.
-Team R&D-
-noitcelfeR maeT-
Don't forget that you can always Reanimate Platinum Emperion, and you'll never lose life for it (barring something silly like Humility).
Just wanted to point out:
NON BLUE CONTROL DECKS LOVE MENTAL MISSTEP!
that is all
*whispers Pox and floats away*
feefox: each card in hand!!!!
ridicolous
only fortune
TBH I kind of agree with this guy.
Mr. Jin isn't going to be the end of all of Reanimator problems. It's not going to win every game. But on average he probably is better than Reanimating a random creature because you didn't draw Entomb. Just take for example reanimating a random creature against Elves:
- Iona = Win
- Blazing Archon = Lose as of NPH
- Sphinx = Probably lose, unles they have a really slow hand or you can disrupt it
- Teratodon = Lose
- Leviathan = Lose
- Mr. Jin = Probably win, if you can hold them off from killing you for 1 more turn after he is play, by countering Glimpse or Crossroads
Sometimes you'll turn 3 reanimate Mr. Jin and they you'll elven Lord yo face. But sometimes they just go off and have their key spell FoW/MMed and win after you reanimate a second creature and they have no cards.
I don't see Jin as the card reanimator needs to be as powerful a deck as before tutor was banned, but I can see how it would help the deck out - the list from the SCG article list looks a bit weak to me to be honest, but discarding Jin, exhume/animate dead him, draw 7 per turn and put your opponent into top-deck mode could buy you the time you need to find an entomb, or Iona, or inkwell or whatever target you need to win in that particular matchup. Assuming you can disrupt your opponent well enough to keep him alive, and you don't just die outright before the draw effect becomes useful of course.
Except that crappy new Jin.
If you drew 7 when it enters the battlefield, it'd be a bit more awesome. As it is, it simpy loses you the game against basically any combination of opposing creatures and instant speed removal, things you normally shouldn't be caring about at all, and which also happen to be extremely played in this format.
The thing with Reanimator is to get an early Iona out and win. It was the combination of Iona and Entomb what made this deck good. Iona is the go-to creature during the first two turns and the rest are just for more marginal occasions and backup.
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some of my friends sell drugs.
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