I know I'm probably shouting into the void but maybe there's someone else working on this deck this summer. 1-3 last night in the first real speedbump for the deck. No changes to my last list other than swapping one Lavamancer for a Terminate. Maybe should be Dreadbore.
Rd 1 I beat burn 2-0, winning game 1 by double bolting him with myself at 3. Game 2 I stuck mom-thalia, he got stuck on two mountains and showed me a hand of 2-mana spells when he conceded.
Rd 2 vs my buddy on rug delver. He won the die roll, which is always tough. Game 2 was closer but he won with 2 flipped delvers.
Rd 3 vs a guy at his first legacy tournament playing D&T. I crushed game 1, he won game 2 and game 3 I was really close but he found a Manriki-Gusari. We were in turns and he couldn't win, but I scooped to him thinking about the time someone did that for me. Paying it forward actually feels better than winning sometimes.
I was going to drop but my Rd 4 opponent was waiting for me since I had been in turns, so I decided to stick it out. He was on Miracles. I won the die roll and somehow won game 1 when he never found a top. He resolved Entreat in games 2 and 3, even though I extracted counterbalance in game 3 I couldn't win in time.
Because of my issues with Entreat I'm thinking more and more about Meddling Mage. Just a matter of whether I want Cavern or Tundra for it.
You might consider nevermore. It can be tutored and is a 3 so it is harder for them to counter with counterbalance, doesn't force a 4rth color and doesn't die to creature removal which your opponents will likely max out on G2 and G3 against you. I was initially going to suggest runed halo, but it doesn't actually protect you from tokens since they are not cards. It is a good card to keep in mind for other situations though.Originally Posted by maharis
Also your last deck list post was missing the equipment in the main deck (57 cards listed). I assume jitte, batterskull and SoFaI or SoFaF. I personally am a big fan of lingering souls, over cards like mirran crusader, even in a world of deathrites.
Also, against miracles, pithing needle is very strong (top or Jace). It will often buy you 1-2 turns. It is also very strong against other tough decks like Painter, MUD or anything with Griselbrand.
Yeesh, thanks. It's a SoFI with the Jitte and Batterskull.
I actually did think about going with Nevermore over Mage. It would only cost me a dollar instead of $200 (though I would be fine with a Hallowed Fountain). My problem is that it's 4 CMC under Thalia, which means it's somewhat useless against Storm and S&T, which I think would be good matchups to have Mage (especially with a Mom on board as well). That's incidentally why I don't play Souls either, I am playing this more like D&T than midrange and I really want to take advantage of Thalia and Wasteland. But it would take up less space and doesn't die to Terminus so I'll draft a version with it.
I used to split Needle and Revoker, but decided with Thalia and Mom it would be better to have Revokers. However, I am missing needle a lot. So I'm going to split them again. It's also burn's world and we're all just living in it, so Warmth is on my radar. With that being said, here are some sideboards I envision:
3 Meddling Mage
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Wear // Tear
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Rest in Peace
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Warmth
1 Hallowed Fountain
I really want to run this for laughs, going turn 1 mom turn 2 fetch-shock-mage would be hilarious because absolutely no one would expect it. Does seem super fragile though. Also would have to go to 3 or 4 mesas to make it work.
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Wear // Tear
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Nevermore
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Rest in Peace
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Warmth
This is probably more likely in the short term. I've really liked Surgical when I've resolved it, but I can't say it's really ever mattered. I extracted Counterbalance against Miracles and still lost. So maybe that should be 3 REB/1 Slaughter Games or another bullet.
Revoker / Needles on Top make it really tough for Miracles to effectively set up Entreat.
I would prefer EE over splashing blue for Meddling Mage if you're trying to deal with Angel tokens.
3-1 tonight. I picked up some Perish from the store and ran this sideboard:
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Wear // Tear
2 Perish
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Rest In Peace
I cut my Terminate for a Top since I had more Goyf game post board. So obviously I didn't play against RUG or BUG.
Rd 1 beat D&T 2-0. This was the guy from last week. Grim Lavamancer ate him alive. I told him if he ever sees a mountain to revoke Lavamancer. Not sure if that's right but it probably is.
Rd 2 I lost to Miracles 0-2. Got him to 1 in the first game before he stabilized. Mulled to 6 in second game. I gotta figure out this matchup.
Rd 3 I beat MUD 2-0. Equipment not being taxed was a real problem for him. I saw a lot of Lodestones but my removal was cheap enough that I could keep up.
Rd 4 I beat Sneak & Show 2-1. Game 1: He won the die roll, played a volc, passed. I inquisition. He has sneaks, forces, and ancient tombs and other lands in his hand. But when he picked his hand up he also picked up his volc, draws a card, plays a volc and passes. I said, wait a minute, you picked up your volc by accident, you should have 2 lands in play. He gets flustered and plays a second volc. This was huge as I untapped into Thalia and he couldn't cast sneak attack before I wasted him out of the game because he had 2 volcs in play instead of the ancient tomb. Game 2 he got emrakul down. game 3 i had lots of discard and wasteland.
I'm getting tired of losing to Miracles. I will have to remember to test Nevermore next time. Maybe revokers main in the terminate/top slot and instead of the 4th Wasteland.
Maybe think about Lingering souls somewhere in the 75? It's so great in dead guy to help grind a game vs. Miracles. Also Slaughter Games on Entreat or something helps.
Yeah I really need that effect. I'm thinking about taking a cue from Elves and running Bitterblossom in the sideboard since I have the E Tutors, and also play Revokers main. They have no way to deal with a resolved BB except for Venser-counter. They can counter half of Souls and it gets wiped out by Terminus. BB is also on curve after Thalia. Combined with MD Revokers that should give me some better game.
I think this is the optimal list I want to get to next time I try the deck. I'm a Plateau and 2 Mesas short in the manabase, and I need another Thoughtseize, but those are cheap enough. Just got a $2k check from a freelance job so let's legacyyyyyy
4 Marsh Flats
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wasteland
3 Scrubland
3 Plateau
1 Badlands
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
4 Mother of Runes
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Mirran Crusader
1 Grim Lavamancer
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Wear // Tear
2 Perish
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Rest in Peace
1 Bitterblossom
1 Engineered Explosives
Weak points of this build: Nothing to do against a resolved True-Name except EE, or a turn 2 Show & Tell. I do have lots of ways to counter/strip them after board, and I can fight over TNN equipment and Sneak Attack with Wear // Tear. (I killed Sneak Attack with Wear last night, felt awesome). In addition, BB can come in against most TNN decks to carry equips over the top. Can't come in against Goyf decks, but I don't really need that with Perish.
And I hate Oblivion Ring, it's just a dead card so often, it's only good when it's in your hand (which isn't much different than REB) and it's not good in many other matchups (I've been bringing it in against Miracles, but I rarely want it). Same thing with Ethersworn Canonist, the decks that's good against have a tough time with Thalia, Revoker, Mindcensor and discard (and sometimes Wasteland and RIP). I could see making room for a Grafdigger's Cage, but Mindcensor stops the library part of it pretty nicely and Surgical might be better turn 0-1 GY hate.
With no DRS or Lili in the 75 Revoker is only dead against Patriot and RUG, but I like those matchups anyway. RUG can get any deck with its nut draw but I can jump on any slower keep. Patriot is very threat-light, sometimes they just don't draw anything. Both of those decks are also susceptible to Wasteland. In the end I have basics, lots of removal, a creature that's insane against Goyf, Mongoose and Germ token, and many angles of attack on their cantrips.
Got KTFO in what will probably be my last run with the deck for a while. I'm not discouraged, I just feel like it's tested enough at this point and want to try something new to have options at the fall tourneys here in the NE. I played the last 75 I posted with a slight change to the sideboard: -1 Surgical, -1 EE, +1 Nevermore, +1 Zealous Persecution
Rd. 1 vs Naya Loam: This was basically the 4-color loam deck without black. I lost the die roll and in game 1 he got a chalice on 1 out on turn 2 and I had lots of 1-drops in my hand. But I was beating in with a Batterskull for a while, until he wished for Shattering Spree.
Game 2 was a laugher. I kept 2 fetches, Plateau, Bob, Bob, SFM, Mirran Crusader. Sweet, I thought, I am all set — gonna get my basics, stick some threats, draw some cards. Then he mulled to 5! I was already thinking about game 3 when I played a Marsh Flats and passed. His turn 1: Mox Diamond pitching Dark Depths. Windswept Heath fetching Forest. Burning Wish for Loam. Cast Loam, pass. I grab SoFI off my SFM next turn thinking I will stick it to Mirran Crusader and try to win fast. I have a Mom in my hand, but pass with white open to bluff STP for Marit Lage. Of course, that turn, he assembles punishing grove between drawing and dredging and plays a Knight. I couldn't stick anything before I got Marit Laged. Sometimes they just find everything, but I think I win that game if I play Mom because he can't kill my Crusader.
Then I had the bye, then played Burn. I again lost the die roll, but I had Mom into double Thalia so I felt good. Didn't matter. Turn 1 Spike me, turn 2 Searing Blaze my Mom, turn 3 kill Thalia and just draw gas forever. Game 2 I just got literally roasted
Last round was against Sneak and Show. Lost the die roll for a third time. But I managed to win game 1 on the draw on the strength of Thoughtseize, Phyrexian Revoker, Wasteland, and Thalia. Gotta credit Megadeus for that one, he has been a big proponent of MD Revoker in BW decks to deal with S&S. Game 2 was going much the same way. I got a Revoker and SoFI down, but he Shattering Spreed them. Then I got another Revoker and a Bob down, but he had Pyroclasm. Eventually he snuck in Emrakul at like 3 life. In game 3 he mulled to 5 and I kept Arid Mesa, Wasteland, Revoker, double REB, Wear/Tear. It really needed another land but I felt good given his mulligan. I think I misplayed by not Blasting a Ponder he played the turn before dropping S&T with Force backup. Had I had another red source I could've blown him out, but alas.
My board for S&S is -4 Mom, -4 StP, -1 Lavamancer, -1 Jitte, +3 REB, +2 Surgical, +2 E-tutor, +2 Wear/Tear, +1 Nevermore. I cut Moms instead of Bolts thinking that Bolt could finish him off faster. I knew about Pyroclasm, but I figured the reach would be more important — any turn he's casting Pyroclasm is a turn he's not casting S&T, and I have threat density on my side. That might have been wrong though. Oh well.
I've been doing pretty well with a token-centric brew the last couple weeks at Monday night legacy. This is the list I ran this week:
4 young pyromancer
4 dark confidant
4 deathrite shaman
3 stoneforge mystic
4 lingering souls
4 thoughtseize
4 cabal therapy
4 swords to plowshares
4 lightning bolt
2 zealous persecution
1 jitte
1 batterskull
1 sensei's divining top
8 fetches
2 plateau
2 badlands
2 scrublands
1 swamp
1 plains
4 wasteland
SB:
2 zealous persecution
2 lightning helix
2 surgical extraction
2 rest in peace
2 meekstone
2 ethersworn canonist
2 wear//tear
1 manriki-gusari
This last week my match ups were:
RD1 4 color delver 2-0
I blew him out both games in a row with turn 1 deathrite, turn 2 young pyromancer into cabal therapy plus flashback. I made that play three times this night and it felt overpowered every time.
RD2 Death And Taxes 2-0
I plowed his turn 1 play and then landed a bob game 1. Card advantage took over before he could deal with it. Game 2 I had so much relevant stuff to bring in I didn't see how I could lose. We ended the game with me on like, 10 tokens and him with 2 land and a jitte.
RD3 Young Frankenstein 2-1
Game 1 was over quick in my favor. Game 2 was a frickin slog that he pulled through by reanimating my stoneforge to find his 1 of jitte in the sideboard. Game 3 had only about 10 minutes. He reanimated an elesh but I was able to plow it then hardcast batterskull, swing twice and then double bolthim on turn 4 after going to time.
RD4 Maverick ID but we played and I won
I had a gross play in this match. I was on the play and blind called swords to plowshares on cabal. I hit one and saw 2 moms a zenith a kotr and land. In my hand I had zealous, pyro, deathrite and some over junk. He played turn 1 mom and passed. Back to me I dropped a land and deathrite and passed. On his turn, he dropped another mom and zenithed for 0. I apologized in advance and cast pyromancer then zealous to wipe his board, then I flashbacked cabal therapy with my token to take his knight.
After all this, he still could have comeback. The weakness in any discard deck is your opponent's top deck. He topped something like, deathrite, knight, jitte, stoneforge, stoneforge finding sword and skull. It was gross. However, he played too defensively and didn't swing with his knight early to sac it in exchange for jitte counters to kill my pyromancer and bob. Eventually I came in for an exactly lethal swing with a bunch of tokens and another zealous.
This deck feels extremely strong in my meta which is heavily on storm, death and taxes/bw stoneblade decks, loam/punishing maverick, and delver. After sideboard, I feel pretty invincible in a lot of games. My favorite part is the 8 removal and 8 discard maindeck. 8 removal This is just too much removal for delver decks to deal with, especially when you add in the 2 zealous. Lightning helix has been an all star too. It has great applicability against burn and all quick delver decks. No one expects it and it's such a blowout to kill a flipped delver with it. The 8 discard gives you a fighting chance against combo and deathrite helps against storm and dredge.
For changes, I really want some git probes main deck. I think I'm going to cut 1 thoughtseize and 1 lingering souls for 2 gitaxian and see where that gets me. The key is often to get value off of pyromancer on turn 2 flashbacking cabal therapy. You can do that with a deathrite to get you to 3 mana or a git probe.
We talk about Dega a lot on the next podcast, and Sean split Vintage at Gencon with a similar list that was essentially Legacy plus Power.
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 STP
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Lingering Souls
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of LaS/FaF
2 Senseis Top
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Badlands
3 scrubland
1 Plateau
4 Wasteland
4 bloodstained Mire
4 Marsh flats
1 Plains
1 swamp
1 mountain
SB
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Red elemental Blast
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Wear/Tear
2 Duress
The list needs work but i will explain more when im not on my mobile.
Yes! I always wanted to request that in the thread but it seemed so selfish. Can't wait!
I saw Sean's deck in the pimp thread and started looking for the next proxy vintage tournament in NYC. I plan to live the dream.
I see that the past couple lists are using DRS, Lili, and Souls. I might give it a try again if my Thalia build has another crappy week, but I feel like we aren't close to the best deck that uses those cards. I could see myself playing Lili and Souls as 2-ofs and use them more as late-game fuel rather than trying to accelerate into them. Would certainly help the Miracles matchup.
This deck can be BW Blade - which is a good deck in its own right - but splashing red for Bolt and sideboard slots
I thimk the black midrange core is pretty set, but it just depends if you wamt SFM, Decay, or REB.
Crackling Doom
RWB
Instant
Crackling Doom deals 2 damage to each opponent. Each opponent sacrifices a creature with the greatest power among creatures he or she controls.
I kind of like this card here. In lavamancer builds you can control the small/targetable creatures and use this to blow up some fat like Goyf or potentially a true-name. Forcing a sacrifice of a card with certain characteristics seems underrated.
It's a nice card, and maybe in aggressive versions you want it, but how often is the shock towards the opponents dome going to be as relevant as an extra mana and 2 more colored. If you want an instant speed edict, just play diabolic.
Are there no green sources of mana because of Submerge or was it just a mistake not to have a Bayou in there?
Edit: or does it just not matter with so much equipment?
You could run a Bayou, but I never really found I needed one, discounting the Burn matchup, of course. I think you could easily cut a Mire for a Bayou if need be, or, if you felt greasy, the Mountain. I still think the Mountain is sometimes necessary to support Lavamancer over multiple turns while combating Wasteland, but could be the most cuttable (but I won't since the aforementioned reason and summer mountain).
-Matt
You guys liked Grafdigger's more than RIP? Grafdigger's works vs Elves but RIP is such a dicking for the graveyard decks.
I tend to like an ETutor board as well since you also get options like Engineered Plague for TNN.
RIP turns off your Lavamancers, Deathrites, and makes Souls shitty. I mean, don't get me wrong, I love RIP even in a deck with DRS and Souls, but Cage is a fine card vs most GY based decks (though it's useless vs PFire and Loam) as well as being fairly awesome against Elves.
Mardu Charm RWB
Instant [Uncommon]
Choose one --
Mardu Charm deals 4 damage to target creature.
Put two 1/1 white warrior creature tokens onto battlefield. They gain first strike until end of turn.
Target opponent reveals his or her hand. You choose a noncreature, nonland card from it. That player discards that card.
This does a lot of interesting stuff that you can't really evaluate in a vaccuum. Let's say, for example, you want to be able to Revoke Liliana and play Rest in Peace, diminishing the value of Souls. This card gives you removal, hand disruption, and extra bodies at the end of their turn (to untap, attach equipment, and bash with).
4 damage to a creature can kill some Goyfs, which is nice; it also of course hits all the other creatures that you can target (delver, SFM, most stuff in D&T, infect dudes).
The instant speed duress is something I really like against combo decks. Turn 1, seize them. Turn 2, play some sort of hatebear if you have it, but maybe the best you can do is Bob/SFM. Turn 3 you pass the turn, let them draw, and take their most important card. You can play it on the stack when they Brainstorm or Ponder.
Ultimately 3 CMC in 3 colors is going to be a real test for the playability of the card, but all 3 abilities do something relevant. Instant speed cards and effects are very strong in Legacy.
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