I'm surprised there isn't a thread for this card yet. This card is on everyone's radar for Standard, yet no one talks about it for Legacy.
Batterskull is a great card because it makes your Stoneforge Mystics much better than they were. There are plenty of decks that only run 3 SFM's and Batterskull is the best excuse to run the 4th SFM.
The reason why you play with only 3 SFM's is because you never want to see more than 1 Sword per game. The equip cost is just too great and it sucks to have an equipped creature catch creature removal because you just wasted a lot of mana. Now imagine if you have 2 Swords to equip. One of them will most likely be dead. Therefore, the rationale of only running 3 SFM's is solid.
But Batterskull changes this all. Stoneforge Mystic is one of the most powerful creature cards in magic, right now. He is to white, what tarmogoyf is to green. The correct number of Tarmogoyfs, if you play them, is usually 4 and so is the correct number of Stoneforge Mystics. They are just too good not to play. Batterskull improves your second Stoneforge Mystic, because you can now tutor up a body instead of an extra sword.
Batterskull gives you a tutorable 4/4 lifelink vigilance body for 1W. If Tarmogoyf is good enough for Legacy, a 4/4 lifelink vigilance that can
- Return itself to hand after it has died, to give you a new 4/4 body
- Return itself to hand to destroy bridge from belows
- Has synergy with other equipment because of vigilance and lifelink
- Provides you with an extra blocker (One with lifelink, so you can actually survive a lot more)
is playable as well.
Imagine being able to play with a Splicer that reads
1W
1W, Tap: Put into play a 3/3Golem, you may only have 1 Golem in play at the same time. Golems you control get +1/+1, Vigilance, Lifelink and has `3: Return this card to your hand after it has died`
The critics probably want to tell us that
5 mana is way too much to pay for this card, and that the game is long over by then.
This criticism sucks, donīt believe it. Stoneforge Mystic is like Tinker or Natural Order. If Vintage decks can play a 12 mana Blightsteel Colossus, and if Legacy decks can play a 10 mana Progenitus, you can surely play a 5 mana equipment. You donīt plan on casting it, you simply cheat it into play.
But what if they plowshares my Mystic?
First, You can get a Sword first and use your second SFM to get Batterskull, now they have to plowshare 2 SFMīs to make Batterskull useless. Chances are, if heīs plowing 1/2īs he wonīt have much removal left for your real threats.
Second, you can clear the way with discard effects
Third, if they donīt answer SFM in 1 turn, they are officially dead. Once Batterskull hits the battlefield, they have a serious problem. They now need 2 plowshares to survive. One for the germ, and another for the SFM.
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My conclusion is that Batterskull greatly improves SFM in multiples. Running Batterskull allows you to get more value out of running a full playset of Stoneforge Mystics, and Stoneforge Mystic is a busted card. I believe this card is like Vengevine. A great standard and legacy card, that only gets love in standard. It takes a while for the legacy community to catch on but it will eventually embrace it.
Hardcasting at 5 as you already brought up is not ideal. In legacy there are significantly better things you should be paying 5 mana for.
The problem with cheating it though lies in legacy and why SFM is not AS good as it is standard, simply put there's many more permanent answers to it and it's just two slow.
Let's figure you play stoneforge by turn 2. You're now tapped out so unless you're running blue or black there's very few free spells you may have for protection and should logically consider running either. Yes, even mental misstep is not a card you should be running unless you're running blue. Your opponent has a whole turn to remove your stoneforge, assuming they didn't already counter it intead.
Turn three if all works out you can tap it to cheat the sword into play, but given the legacy metagame, cheating a 4/4 lifelink vigilence into play on turn 3 isn't as impressive as it might be for standard. By turn 3 a NO deck can have progenitus in play consistently. By turn 3 sneak/show decks will have played emrakul. By turn 3 storm will have a chance to deal 20+ damage already. Usually belcher has gone off by turn 3. Elves are swinging at you in full force or have hardcasted emrakul by then. Zoo can effectively cut your life in half while dealing with both the stoneforge and the batterskull by the time it's ready to hit play.
Legacy's first four turns are very critical, and since batterskull isn't winning you the game within this timeframe, I can't even see what you'd have a use for it in.
The reason it gets the standard hype is because batterskull WILL see a ton of play until stoneforge rotates. It may continue to see play afterward depending on what innistrad has in store also, but it may also drop off depending on the toys we have by then.
^this^
Beyond that, you act like it's this unkillable awesome threat, and, well, it's not. A 4/4 is nice, but easily outclassed by Knight, Terravore, Tombstalker, Progenitus, Emrakul, and basically any mid-to-late game threat - which is where Batterskull will be hanging out. He'll be *decent* against tribal, but then again, Stoneforge is really good against tribal decks anyway. You also have to factor in how mana-intensive his "recursion" is, and that without Stoneforge, he is garbage. If they can deal with Stoneforge before you forge him in, or if they can deal with both, you're in some trouble, and I don't think a 4/4 dude is worth that.
Originally Posted by ktkenshinx
No. Unanswered Tinker in Vintage usually means gg...the same is for Natural Order in legacy. Unanswered Batterskull is... erm.. a 4/4 lifelink?
And by the way, this card is the classic danger of cool things. Doesn't make the cut imho because running Battersull in your 60 means that you are relying a bit too much on your Mystics, which are too fragile by themselves, because the only way you will want to cast BSkull is through your Mystics. Also the equip 5 is a pain in the ass.
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How are you relying too much on your mystics? You search for Batterskulll as the 2nd target. First you get a Sword in most situations.
I don't see this as an early threat.
I could definitely see a framework with:
4 Stoneforge Mystics
3 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of X/Y
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of the Meek
3 Jace, the Mindsculptor
Batterskull becomes like a Morphling in the sense that you can't get rid of it and you can't properly race it. It's also useful for taking care of Planeswalkers. I believe that with Stoneforge Mystics and Batterskull, your Jace has a much better bodyguard than with Tarmogoyf.
Wow! A 5 mana 4/4 vigilance, Lifelink is like Tinker or NO? Then Baneslayer should have broken Magic, huh? To me this part of the discussion is not useful. Moreover I believe SFM is overrated for Legacy use. Tutoring a Jitte is nice but swords and things like batterskull are too mana and time-consuming as DTC already mentioned
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The card is very good in GW Maverick because it turns your Stoneforges into removal magnets, making it more likely your Knights survive. It's also relatively easy to hardcast due to mana dorks and Gaea's Cradle. I'm not sure why some people think that things with 5cmc are garbage unless they immediately kill the opponent >_>
Probably because you're getting an easily outclassed, difficult to abuse body out of it.
This is my point exactly. You really want to plowshare a Stoneforge Mystic when there is also Tarmogoyf and Knight of the Reliquary staring down at you?
So, Tutoring Jitte is nice (Costs 4 mana to cast and equip), but then you go on to say that tutoring a Sword (Costs 2 mana to cheat, and 2 to equip=4) is too expensive. In the same breath you mention Batterskull is too expensive aswell, when Batterskull has Living Weapon and is actually the only equipment of the ones you mentioned that cost 2 mana instead of 2 mana plus an equipcost. Batterskull is ONLY more expensive than any other equipment if your Stoneforge Mystic doesn't survive, in which case your Tarmogoyf or other threats will survive. In any other situation he is the cheapest equipment we have available.
What you say is perhaps the most valid argument made against it thus far. However, even if you chump block with it or let it catch removal, there will be times when you will actually equip it for 5 mana on a tarmogoyf and attack for 9 lifelink vigilance, outclassing pretty much everything else.
Batterskull makes Stoneforge Mystic better, no doubt about that. As the opening post states, decks that want to play SFM want to include 1 (and only 1) Batterskull and consider a full playset of SFM.
I believe it is the Batterskull+SFM on par with NO+Proggy statement that draws all the hates. Decks that don't want to play SFM will not attempt to play SFM because of Batterskull. Batterskull is a card that makes SFM better, but not a Proggy that makes NO playable and busted. The broken card is SFM, although her high mana investment does not make it fit into many decks. People play SFM to answer Tribal primarily, and this will not change because of Batterskull. Batterskull just adds SFM deck a bonus against controllish decks.
Batterskull is not a Mental Misstep, but all around a great card and will see Legacy play.
Interesting idee that should be explored, im a very huge fan of SFM. I wouldnt compare it to tinker or NO thought :D I do like the thing where a squire needs imediatly response or its looking grim.
To add some nuance to the Tinker/Natural Order comment. What I meant wasn't a comparison in power level, but purely a comparison of how similarly costed cards that are eternal staples cheat mana costs, and as a judgment as how one should look at Stoneforge Mystic from a functionality point of view. Don't let the 5 mana CC of Batterskull deter you from properly evaluating Batterskull is all I'm saying.
Also, some more ideas to spread around:
Dead Guy Ale has Mother of Runes and duress effects to protect SFM and force through a Batterskull. Confidant can use the lifegain.
Can Death and Taxes cast 1st SFM to grab a Sword, then vial in Flickerwisp to blink SFM grabbing a Batterskull and cheat it into play because the summoning sickness is already gone?
*Progenitus and Emrakul don't count, because those are combo decks. Everything is outclassed by tendrils for 20.
*Tombstalker doesn't outclass Batterskull. Tombstalker is 5/5 and needs to tap. this means you can attack with your 4/4 Lifelink Vigilance dude, putting him on 16 and you on 19, who's winning here? Also, should germ die, you can equip something bigger than 0/0 to really outclass Tombstalker.
*Knight of the Reliquary has to be really fricking big to race Batterskull. The only way to do this is by fetching maze of ith first, otherwise Batterskull will just gain 8 life per round. You may want to play Knight and Batterskull together though. Tarmogoyf is outclassed by Knight as well, that doesn't mean you can't play those together..
*Terravore hardly ever sees play, but even if it does, same story for Knight
So the only real card up until now that you mention is Knight of the Reliquary.
Bruizar, you've certainly made a point that it's worth it to test Batterskull if you run a deck with Stoneforge Mystic. However, if you want to proof this card is worth running I need match-up statistics and analysis. Just saying "card A" would be awesome because of argument 1, 2 and 3 doesn't mean a thing as long as the arguments are limited to comparing card A with other cards in the meta.
So what I'd like to see is, what would a deck look like with this card and what are the match-up percentages before and after the inclusion of this card. And no estimates please, just raw data.
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
The reason I suggest Swords and batterskull as too slow and expensive is that paying 1W to cast SFM, Next turn Pay 1W and tap SFM to drop Sword/b.skull and in your third turn you are ready to attack. I mean ... 3 turns of tappig out for an active 4/4 lifelink, vigilance or a sworded SFM isn't hot in Legacy. With all the mana and time this costs I rather drop Knights and goofies and punt my opponent off the seat.
IMO this is the same line of thoughts that you should run tarmogoyf with Green sun's zenith's. You remember that discussion? Instead of running real threads like Knights people suggest GSZ to negate tarmogoyfs advantage to be cheap. I can see your use of SFM to be the glue in your suggested package but I think you're hopping through too many hoops here.
Edit: I would rather try to use SFM in Vintage; gett'n a equipted SFM online on turn 2 seems powerful.
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Actually you can see it not as an attacker, but as a bonus, like: tap 2: drop an istant 4/4 lifelink chumpblocker. Still not very exciting.
It's interesting though the fact that turn 1 Vial, followed by turn 2 Standstill just became even more stronger. Turn 3, vial in Stoneforge, turn 4 eot vial in Bskull.
It would be interesting to see Stoneforge in a deck packing Squadron Hawk, Jace Tms, Confidants and Skullclamp, alongside with the classical UWB Vintage Brokeness :)
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I doubt that the hawks are vintage material being a pretty disappointing draw unless you have jace already online and 3 mana to draw 2 via clamp isn't "broken enough" ;D
But back to Legacy: a 4/4 lifelinking jumpblocker isn't exciting because the opponent knows that you have tutored for.
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I actually really like this card but I think its applications are limited. I kinda really wanna play it in some sorta control deck that plays Humility. Seems like a pretty good wincon.
Ok Bruizar, I usually respect you for your ideas and posts, but this post makes me wonder about your affluences with Vintage (I don't play Vintage as much as you do but some statements here referencing Vintage/Legacy just don't make any sense to me.
I disagree, Batterskull the way I see it as at best a tutorable RWM on a 4/4 body with vigilance with SFM. This makes SFM slightly better but not in the way you are imagining it to be. In decks that could desire a 4/4 RWM vigilance for 4 mana over 2 turns, then that makes SFM slightly better, but there will not be a big number of SFM decks packing these due to card slots. I mean I guess you can cut Goyfs down because I think recently people are starting to do that (not that I agree). Cutting Goyfs for cards that are slower but win games better is a trade off. You now lose more in the early game or the ability to just win games fast by dropping Goyfs early.
I'm surprised there isn't a thread for this card yet. This card is on everyone's radar for Standard, yet no one talks about it for Legacy.
Batterskull is a great card because it makes your Stoneforge Mystics much better than they were. There are plenty of decks that only run 3 SFM's and Batterskull is the best excuse to run the 4th SFM.
I agree with this point to some extent. SFM is inherently a tempo-investment card. You have to invest at least 4 mana and possibly 2 turns to get a card e.g. Jitte that recoups the initial tempo loss invested. However, all the current SFM targets SoFI/SoLS/Jitte have very lower mana cost which is why the SFM strategy is fairly successful. In all honesty, it is only successful because the meta itself is prone to cards like Jitte/SoFI, but not really to a 4/4 vigilance lifelinker for 2WW and involving 1-2 passing the turns.The reason why you play with only 3 SFM's is because you never want to see more than 1 Sword per game. The equip cost is just too great and it sucks to have an equipped creature catch creature removal because you just wasted a lot of mana. Now imagine if you have 2 Swords to equip. One of them will most likely be dead. Therefore, the rationale of only running 3 SFM's is solid.
Disagree that SFM is one of the most powerful creature cards in magic. Bob, Knights, Goyfs, Lackey still easily trump it. Why? Because these creatures are very efficient and cost efficient, and that's what makes it count the most in this format. Don't forget that with Batterskull, you are inherently playing a 4/4 lifelink vigilance for 2W and passing 1-2 turns. This seems very bad for me. If you do intend to equip to another creature, then i would strongly advise you to rethink about paying 5 mana to equip to a dude that is likely to get removed in response. Now that is HUGE tempo loss. It's a reason why I'm not a fan of SFM, because decks playing SFM are naturally investing and gambling on tempo (hoping opponents don't have the countermagic/removal). In fact, most of the time out-tempo'ing SFM decks, I actually rather the SFM resolve if I have enough removal and just focus on removing creatures in response to equip and all that time, the SFM player is tapping out and not putting up more board position, which gives me the position to win faster.But Batterskull changes this all. Stoneforge Mystic is one of the most powerful creature cards in magic, right now. He is to white, what tarmogoyf is to green. The correct number of Tarmogoyfs, if you play them, is usually 4 and so is the correct number of Stoneforge Mystics. They are just too good not to play. Batterskull improves your second Stoneforge Mystic, because you can now tutor up a body instead of an extra sword.
no, it's 2WW involving passing the turn. It is also situational when you pass the turn (assuming they don't plow your Mystic EOT). In this case if they plowed your Mystic, you would have wished you fetched a Jitte that you can cast/equip much easier. Some will argue that an unsituational 1G 4/5 or 5/6 is still better than a 2WW situational4/4 lifelink vigilance body.Batterskull gives you a tutorable 4/4 lifelink vigilance body for 1W. If Tarmogoyf is good enough for Legacy, a 4/4 lifelink vigilance that can
- Return itself to hand after it has died, to give you a new 4/4 body
- Return itself to hand to destroy bridge from belows
- Has synergy with other equipment because of vigilance and lifelink
- Provides you with an extra blocker (One with lifelink, so you can actually survive a lot more)
is playable as well.
Why is up with this analogy???? This is wrong on so many levels that I won't even begin to comment. Also, after this analogy, all I gathered is that the reusing of battleskull is entirely dependent on SFM being in play, and having 5 mana open in Legacy?Imagine being able to play with a Splicer that reads
1W
1W, Tap: Put into play a 3/3Golem, you may only have 1 Golem in play at the same time. Golems you control get +1/+1, Vigilance, Lifelink and has `3: Return this card to your hand after it has died`
This is where I start doubting you play Vintage seriously. 1W SFM is far from a 2GG Natural Order that wins games in 2 turns, or a 2U Show and Tell that wins games in 2 turns, and you dare compare it to Tinker, which wins games in 1 turn as early as you can resolve it. The criticism/analogy you have here is in fact the 'sucks', because 5 mana is way too much mana if you cannot win games fast. All the comparisons you made win games in 2 turns and your opponents cannot do anything about it (much limited answers to Progenitus/Emrakul v.s. a 4/4 lifelink vigilance or an equipment, sigh bolt/plow equipped creature in response, grip the equipment block for a 2-1 etc etc).The critics probably want to tell us that
5 mana is way too much to pay for this card, and that the game is long over by then.
This criticism sucks, donīt believe it. Stoneforge Mystic is like Tinker or Natural Order. If Vintage decks can play a 12 mana Blightsteel Colossus, and if Legacy decks can play a 10 mana Progenitus, you can surely play a 5 mana equipment. You donīt plan on casting it, you simply cheat it into play.
Yeah all I see here is StP to SFM parity. If you draw the 2nd SFM, I have the same chance to draw the 2nd StP, except that 1 mana v.s. 1W mana wins in all the situation, and at the same time you are investing 1W to playing Squire while I'm investing my mana to play dudes to beat your face.But what if they plowshares my Mystic?
First, You can get a Sword first and use your second SFM to get Batterskull, now they have to plowshare 2 SFMīs to make Batterskull useless. Chances are, if heīs plowing 1/2īs he wonīt have much removal left for your real threats.
Second, you can clear the way with discard effects
Too much Vintage analogy here again? Sorry, but I can tell you that I'm least worried about Batterskull v.s. something like Jitte.Third, if they donīt answer SFM in 1 turn, they are officially dead.
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You maybe right, but I think the judgement you're passing here in this [SCD] is way too premature, which is why people are attacking your arguments. I don't think Batterskull is bad in Legacy, I just disagree that it is as game-changing the way you put it, and you are one-sidedly proclaiming how SFM strategies are super efficient in Legacy when I have a different story to tell from playing against SFM decks.My conclusion is that Batterskull greatly improves SFM in multiples. Running Batterskull allows you to get more value out of running a full playset of Stoneforge Mystics, and Stoneforge Mystic is a busted card. I believe this card is like Vengevine. A great standard and legacy card, that only gets love in standard. It takes a while for the legacy community to catch on but it will eventually embrace it.
Decks that I care about:
Steel Stompy
UWx Landstill
Dreadstalker
DDFT (10% practice)
Mangara on MWS? You must be masochistic. -kiblast
No, a flickerwsiped SFM must wait a turn to use it's ability.
NO Prog decks are generally Aggro or Aggro control or control decks. Same with most Emrakul decks. Same with Dreadnought decks. They are as much "combo" as your SFM+batterskull is combo.
Tombstalker does outclass Batterskull, as in it sits there and you can't attack into it. Nobody is saying Batterskull can't race it if they try to attack you to death-that's a retarded play that nobody would try to make.
Knight generally comes down as a 3/3 or 4/4 after a fetch land/wasteland. In one turn it can block/activate growing bigger than Batterskull. Hell even at 2/2 in one turn it can activate for a fetch and bring itself up to 4/4 and in another turn 6/6. So worst case is you eat 4 damage and then it just grows until you swing for 16+ and batterskull has to block. That comparison is in a vaccuum.
Terravore is a lil slower than Knight, but generally comes down larger because it counts opposing fetchs and wastes.
My friend and I have been testing Batterskull with stoneforge. Turn 3 battlerskull is very powerful play if you have stoneforge to "vial" it to the battlefield, especially against merfolk and goblin. However, without stoneforge, it is just very slow and clunky. 5 mana for 4/4 is just not impressive. Plus the equip cost is so high that I don't think I want to equip 95% of the time. If I have to spend 5 mana to put something in play, I rather play JTMS.
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