I sort of feel like this is the card that Dragon Stompy wants in its spare slots. It solves the deck's fundamental problem of "Oh shit, got my RPD plowed" since you can just bounce Batterskull to re-use it, and if your opponent doesn't have an answer that turn for the skull, you can protect it from removal from then on. It's also insane to equip to any of your creatures, if you'd rather do that. Also, you can just hardcast the damn thing and never run into the problems of Jitte, like your own chalices.
Okay, Let me deal with the NO and Tinker analogy here in a separate post:
What Stoneforge Mystic does with Equipment is inherently the same as Tinker does with Artifacts and Natural Order does with green creatures.
The mechanic is the same, the cost is slightly different. To make my point, I'm going to make a hyberbolic example.
Let's *pretend* that this equipment exists:
Equipment of Doom
CC 20
Equip 0
When you attached Equipment of Doom, untap equipped creature.
+10/+10 Trample
Obviously, this would be on the power level of Emrakul cheats and Progenitus cheats. Suddenly, Stoneforge Mystic's mechanics most closely and more obviously resemble what Tinker and Natural Order try to do. Search your library and cheat something into play while ignoring mana costs.
Please try to understand the underlying concept of what Stoneforge Mystic really is and don't be misguided by the fact that most of the times, it's used to get only a 2 CC or 3 CC equipment into play. Once you begin to understand the comparison, you can easily see that you can negate the mana cost. Especially Tinker is a good comparison because it takes a lot of different cards with varying mana costs (Which Natural Order/Show and Tell don't do).
Tinker2U into Voltaic Key (1CC)
Tinker 2U into Time Vault (2CC)
Tinker2U into Memory Jar (5CC)
Tinker 2U into Blightsteel Colossus (12CC)
or Tinker 2U into Sundering Titan/Myr Battlesphere
Compare this to the possibilities with Stoneforge Mystic
Stoneforge Mystic 1W+1+2 Equip into Basilisk Collar (1CC)
Stoneforge Mystic 1W+1W+2 Equip into Umezawa's Jitte (2CC)
Stoneforge Mystic 1W+1W+2 Equip into Sword of X+Y (3CC)
Stoneforge Mystic 1W+1W into Sword of the Meek (2CC)
Stoneforge Mystic 1W+1W into Batterskull (5CC)
The diversity in targets, the fact that it gets you singletons from your deck and the fact that you can cheat the mana cost by putting it in play is the reason for my comparison. I didn't make a power level comparison, because that's just a stupid thing to do. That's like comparing Ancestral Recall with Yawgmoth's Will. They are both stupid broken but they do different things. Stoneforge Mystic tries to do something comparable to NO and Tinker.
Yes, but Tinker->Tinker target ends the game. In most cases, as does NO->NO target. Stoneforge->Stoneforge target does not. Your method of cheating cool stuff into play kind of fails if you can't get something fairly backbreaking, especially if they just remove the Stoneforge.
Originally Posted by ktkenshinx
I just tried to explain my analogies in my previous post. I hope you understand my point of view by now. Also, I've got nearly 1000 posts on TMD and have been playing this game since 1994. I expected some heated debate over this thread, because if it was too obvious, there would have already been a thread about this card. Opening threads about obvious cards like Mental Misstep is less interesting for me personally.
Glad we agree on something :-)I agree with this point to some extent. SFM is inherently a tempo-investment card. You have to invest at least 4 mana and possibly 2 turns to get a card e.g. Jitte that recoups the initial tempo loss invested. However, all the current SFM targets SoFI/SoLS/Jitte have very lower mana cost which is why the SFM strategy is fairly successful. In all honesty, it is only successful because the meta itself is prone to cards like Jitte/SoFI, but not really to a 4/4 vigilance lifelinker for 2WW and involving 1-2 passing the turns.
Batterskull´s living weapon ability makes it the cheapest equipment that we have available, not counting non SFM equipments. If they answer it, who cares, move onto a new plan. If equipment is too slow anyway, just try to sneak in your living weapon for a mere 1W and see how far you can get. Paying 2WW over 2 turns to get 2 guys out of 1 card is not a bad deal at all. Especially considering what kind of creatures they are.Disagree that SFM is one of the most powerful creature cards in magic. Bob, Knights, Goyfs, Lackey still easily trump it. Why? Because these creatures are very efficient and cost efficient, and that's what makes it count the most in this format.
I think that there will be games that will benefit from equipping Batterskull to a goyf or a Knight. Games that are at a standstill, or when you need to gain a large chunk of life in 1 go. 5 Mana is not always the end of the game. Jace comes down at 4 mana and takes another aeon-and-a-half to kill. That means that the game goes until far beyond the 5th turn, even though the fundamental turn may have already occured.Don't forget that with Batterskull, you are inherently playing a 4/4 lifelink vigilance for 2W and passing 1-2 turns. This seems very bad for me. If you do intend to equip to another creature, then i would strongly advise you to rethink about paying 5 mana to equip to a dude that is likely to get removed in response.
I don´t have a good rebuttal against this. Yes, Jitte is affordable to cast. Yes, it´s not that nice to have a Batterskull clogging your hands. On the other hand, it´s 1 StP less. Batterskull makes SFM a bomb that must be answered. The inclusion of 1 card turns 4 cards into bombs. I don´t see that as something bad.no, it's 2WW involving passing the turn. It is also situational when you pass the turn (assuming they don't plow your Mystic EOT). In this case if they plowed your Mystic, you would have wished you fetched a Jitte that you can cast/equip much easier. Some will argue that an unsituational 1G 4/5 or 5/6 is still better than a 2WW situational4/4 lifelink vigilance body.
Yes, that is correct. Batterskull will not be your routine go-to-equipment. It´s situational the same way Sword of Light and Shadow is situational. You only bring those out for the protection and sometimes for the abilities. Same can be said about Sword of Fire and Ice. That´s why a lot of decks are running 2 Swords.. To cover most of the situations, even though they are both situationally awesome.Also, after this analogy, all I gathered is that the reusing of battleskull is entirely dependent on SFM being in play, and having 5 mana open in Legacy?
This part I can agree on. You have to consider though, that StP is a reactive card. If you DON´T have StP in hand, you are in trouble and I am not. If I don´t have SFM in hand, I am not in trouble. If I can trade my SFM´s for your StPs I am doing a good job even though I´m investing one more mana to do so per StP. My other threats will be in the clear.Yeah all I see here is StP to SFM parity. If you draw the 2nd SFM, I have the same chance to draw the 2nd StP, except that 1 mana v.s. 1W mana wins in all the situation,
This part I can´t agree on. While you are busy StPíng my SFM´s, I still have my 4 StPs to throw at your goyfs and knights. My own goyfs and Knights are still unmolested. I have the most threats, thus I will win.and at the same time you are investing 1W to playing Squire while I'm investing my mana to play dudes to beat your face.
Batterskull is not in any sense comparable to Jitte. It´s not even comparable to Sword of Fire and Ice. It´s a BODY, not an EQUIPMENT. The living weapon ability makes a world of difference!Too much Vintage analogy here again? Sorry, but I can tell you that I'm least worried about Batterskull v.s. something like Jitte.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am not trying to overhype the card. I think it definitely has its place in legacy and the absence of any SCD thread felt strange in my opinion, because I think it's a very relevant printing that gives SFM players a new tool.You maybe right, but I think the judgement you're passing here in this [SCD] is way too premature, which is why people are attacking your arguments. I don't think Batterskull is bad in Legacy, I just disagree that it is as game-changing the way you put it, and you are one-sidedly proclaiming how SFM strategies are super efficient in Legacy when I have a different story to tell from playing against SFM decks.
I'm linking to this thread when everyone and their mom runs 4 SFM and 1 Batterskull. It will happen.
+1. But to make it more accurate, it will only happen to decks that alrealy have SFM.
We all know SFM is of Legacy quality by being a Tutor and providing CA at a fair cost. Batterskull updates her arsenal, enabling tutoring for a creature. It is not a "oops, I win", but a "haha, I am a step ahead".
The problem with running 4 Stoneforge Mystics is that you also need to run a decent number of Equipments so that you can get value when you draw multiple Mystics and/or Equipment before you play your Mystics. That alone constrains the deck space, because now you probably have 52 deck slots to work with.
Now that you rely so heavily on equipment, you're probably going to want to run a healthy number of creatures. I'd say at least 20 to be safe.
So now you've taken up 24 business slots, and presumably need at least 22 lands for such a mana-intensive engine. You have at most 14 other cards to work with. Are you going to use a Death-and-Taxes shell? A Zoo shell? A Bant shell (knowing that you're dangerously close to not being able to support FOW with your low blue count)? A Junk shell?
It could work, and those decks would probably beat up on opposing aggro. But by choosing to build around Batterskull and designing your deck in a way to make it "not suck", you have unnecessarily introduced deck constraints that affect the rest of your card choices. All for a fairly slow combo that usually, but not always gets there against aggro (but still loses to common removal spells) and doesn't do much at all against most control decks or combo decks.
Jak: Link away.
I'm not scared to go on record saying that Batterskull in Legacy is the worst idea since Crystal Pepsi. It's already been discussed that 2WW for a 4/4 lifelink Vigilance is underwhelming at best. Even if it does come with another 1/2 body. 4 mana for a 5/6 lifelinker would be unimpressive. At 4 mana, I get Humility. I get Tendrils of Agony. I get Jace. Moat. Natural Order. Sneak Attack.
Your comparison of SFM -> Batterskull as being on par with NO -> Pro just because you cheat mana costs (and not by much, 4 mana vs. 5, albeit over two turns) is pointless. Goblin Lackey also lets you cheat mana costs. More effectively than SFM, I might add. And the 5 drops you could lay down with Lackey are far better than Batterskull. SGC and Kiki-Jiki both outclass it. Yet Goblins almost never runs Kiki anymore, and SGC is usually a 1 of if it isn't replaced with Sharpshooter, an extra Warren Weirding or occasionally Wort. Because 5 mana is too expensive in Legacy, even if you can sometimes cheat it into play. You don't want 5 mana spells in your opening grip cluttering up your hand because turns in this format are so tight, you CANNOT AFFORD DEAD CARDS. You can get away with dead cards like Prog or Emrakul or Dream Halls or Hive Mind because when they land, they end the game immediately or next to. Batterskull is, best case scenario, a turn 8 kill. Oooh, mommy, I'm terrified of the big bad living weapon that will kill me if I can't answer it by turn 8! As opposed to the Dreadnought that will kill me turn 4, the legion of Fish killing me on turn 5, etc.
The reason there wasn't a thread for this is because it wasn't worth its own discussion. It could've easily been discussed in the main spoiler thread (same goes for Torpor Orb, as far as that goes). I'm pretty sure you're not just trolling, but if you are, you get a 10/10 from me.
Honestly, i really hope that decks add a 4th Stoneforge and 1 Batterskull. All it will do will clog their hand in the early game with suboptimal cards so that they have less cards to stop me killing them before they can even get the Batterskull out. Progenitus has the drawback that if it is in your hand, it sucks without a Brainstorm or something to get it back in your library. But it has an upside that when it hits the table, it's pretty much GG. This can not be said for Batterskull.
Progenitus isn't castable, Batterskull is, even if 5 mana are a lot in legacy. Sure, it may not be efficient, but it's still a playable card while Progenitus is absolutely dead. Also having Progenitus in hand also mean your other 4 NO are dead until you can reshuffle it in with Brainstorm/Jace, and further NO after the first are usually dead in your hand (even if usually this doesn't matter as a Progenitus on the board is game over). Adding a 4th Stoneforge+1Batterskull don't clog hands like NOPro do, it's not even near.
Tutoring Batterskull first isn't often the right play, however it is a must answer play that completely wreck Merfolk (and a little other decks) if done on T1.
Personally, i think most people underestimate this card, but we'll see.
Most NO decks (except NO Show) run 3 Natural Orders. A lot run 1 Prog and 1 Terrastadon now, but even without 'don, NO is about as useful as Batterskull since you're turning a Dryad Arbor into a nice fat KotR or 'goyf which is on par with a Batterskull at least.
I was already very close to running bonehoard as it's a tutorable body.
Guess what I think of batterskull?
That's another thing about it though. If batterskull is a secondary target then you're wasting space already, for either an all around better option, or even just a more successful equipment. Jittes are versatile, and putting jitte on a creature makes it a threat in itself, and it gives you a 2cmc removal spell against an opposing jitte. In aggro and midrange matchups, having a jitte stick for more than a turn swings the match in favor of the jitte player as they'll blow up your smaller guys and race goyfs/kotrs and the rest of the big boys in the field. The enemy swords are versatile depending on your matchup. Exactly which matchup does batterskull help you that those won't?
You have to factor in the pile too. Do you want to draw batterskull at many points in the game? It feels more like a win-more card for decks that are maindecking 3-4 stoneforges, which on its own is usually a secondary strategy card too. SFM is slow by legacy standards that running 3-4 with enough equips will clog your hand when you could use other resources such as countermagic, removals, or creature threats so running enough cards to make that many useful runs the risk of poor draws during the stage of the game you need them most. SFM is great against tribal and creature based decks like zoo or bant, but there's a good number of the field where you'll want better resources in the early turns and having 1-2 mystics and even 1 equip in your opening 7 is a bad sign unless you're in a matchup where you have enough time to develop without interruptions (something legacy is great at doing in most tier 1 decks already unless you're playing against dredge/combo, but either will kill you before you have a chance to develop anyway so they don't care about what you're doing). The benefits you get from SFM is more situational than the benefits you get from other 2 drops like goyf, confidant, etc that don't require the same constructed setbacks.
Just think of what you're trying to achieve by cheating a batterskull that jittes and swords aren't already doing a better job at. Yes, you get the germ but this means the batterskull has two ways to be stopped unless you want to pay 5 to equip or 3 to blink. Mana resources are already precious enough in early/mid games that the only time this card will shine is late game, and you'll already be winning more likely if it got to the point where batterskull is useful. It's not as useful on the losing end, and an even worse topdeck in those situations.
NO is still more useful because of its utility in those situations. Even if I draw a prog and can't brainstorm it back to the library, i have enough big boys in a deck like bant that turning dryad arbors into any other creature is not bad during mid/late games. Batterskull doesn't have that same utility though.
1) SFM is very slow and it's a puny body. It's outstanding in the long run, in terms of card advantage, threat density, etc. but its board presence is nearly non-existent. Running a lot of SFMs slows down your deck quite a bit. I don't think I've ever seen a Legacy deck sporting 4 SFMs.
2) Batterskull is a bad draw without SFM. If you draw Batterskull, or if you tutor Batterskull and SFM is removed, it's very unlikely you'll be able to use Batterskull for a long time. Jitte is a much stronger draw, and is probably the best tutor target at any rate because you can recast it.
3) Even Batterskull with SFM combo is not really that much to write home about. Honestly to the people saying that it turns SFM into a must-kill, don't kid yourself. A 4/4 Vigilance Lifelink is not board dominating any more than is a 1/2 with an Umezawa's Jitte and people weren't running for the hills when they saw a Jitte.
I can't see myself EVER playing Batterskull without 3-4 SFMs, I can't see myself wanting to play 3-4 SFMs, and I can rarely see myself choosing to tutor up Batterskull over Jitte and even then it's a high-risk play.
Humility pumps your germ token!!!!! ;)
I'm not sure about Batrterskull in Legacy, but I do think that it at least deserves to be tested. I do know however that I am running a SFM in my EDH deck and will definitely be using it to fetch out a Baterskull!
Exactly, and it's simply because by the time SFM has time to tutor and cheat even a jitte into play, your opponent will have had time to develop, or have things like goyf/kotr beating you down that it's irrelevant. It's more effective mid/late game if you run 1-2 so you can tutor your own jitte/sword against tribals or to settle kotr/goyf wars.
I had my magic-skull bashed in by Batterskull recently, and was extremely impressed with it. I've had a few runs with it myself since then, but haven't been able to replicate quite the same degree of awesomeness that I witnessed initially. Nonetheless, I find myself on the OP's side here: unlike other equipment, it's never a dead draw (i.e. no creatures on the field). The equip cost is prohibitive, however, and we do run into problems with what to cut. Nonetheless, I'm all for running a copy with SFM: a 4/4 with Lifelink, while not the biggest creature on the field, is still quite welcome. Especially defensively, since returning it to your hand is fairly easy (although I'm aware being on the defensive is not an ideal situation). It's worth noting, too, that Noble Hierarch and KotR do go a long way to helping with its various mana requirements.
"I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each. I do not think they will sing to me." -T.S. Eliot
RIP Ari
Legacy UGB River Rock primer Click here to comment
I would like for someone to give me examples of matchups it's worth running against besides Fish/Goblins. Because beating up random-mws-homebrew.dec doesn't do it for me. It's too slow to be relevant against combo. Bant aggro will be glad you're jerking off half the game and prog you out. TA will kill the damn thing and you'll never have enough mana to equip it or hardcast it. Thopters will ignore it as it's less threatening than QPM or KotR, Affinity will race with MoE/Plating. Elves will ignore you and cast Emrakul. Mono-B variants or Junk decks will strip it out of your hand before you can play it. So Bant CB, a deck that's on the decline anyway, Landstill which is hanging on to tier 2 status by it's fingernails and possibly Canadian Thresh which is weak against things they can't burn, i.e. half the format.
This, it simply sucks to Draw it and not have stoneforge. It's not like Jitte/SOFI which are excellent to draw. I've been testing Batterskull and I have never tutored for it with SFM. Simply because of the fact that Killing stuff with -1/-1 counters/Shocks -> Gaining 4 life a turn. Batterskull is easily nullified by an opposing goyf. Folk can grow up to 4/4 easily to trade with batterskull. Goblins can build a horde and force you to block piledriver with batterskull.
What makes equipment awesome is not the buffs/life but the recurring removal to keep huge hordes in check. Also when you throw down Equip, you can swing immediately and have the counters on, ready to shoot stuff. T2 Stoneforge is never the ideal play. I try to avoid this play if possible because Jitte is a late game card and you are prone to being blown out by removal in response to equip if you invest too much mana into it too early. Thats why we don't play 4 SFM and XX equipment. I want to be dropping Goyfs, KOTRs etc on the early turns and finish off with SFM into Equip for the blow out.
Batterskull off a SFM late game is insanely slow. You have to cast SFM, wait a turn to vial it into play, wait another turn then bash. I'd rather just SFM Jitte, cast jitte, next turn bash, win! -1/-1 or +2/+2 counters ->> life gain any day of the week. It lets you break deadlocks against KOTRs and goyf which a 4/4 batterskull does nothing against. I was excited about this card. Looks like I'll just sell mine to Standard players, where its obviously a bomb.
Batterskull.. a 5-drop that requires SFM (another card) to work decently...Where have we seen a card like this before?
Well, we have... FOW, which needs any other blue card to work, functions as a turn-0 hard counter and tempo machine; NO, which needs any other green creature to pop a 2-turn nigh-unstoppable clock in play, and Ad Nauseum, which is a 5-drop, functions as a complete engine to win games once it resolves. So, how does this 5-drop compare to a format staple and ONE OF the premier build-around card of the format?
TL;DR? Unplayable. A card that can't stand alone and can't be built around effectively will never see play.
Oh, FFS!
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote