If you were referring to me, I was responding to another post which basically stated that everyone can just pay if they want to. I just wanted to show how many loops I've had to hop through to get the cards I have today while still being nowhere near a full Legacy collection. If this displeases you, don't read it. And I got lucky. I at least got enough cards to play the format before it exploded. I know plenty of people that would love to play, but don't have the money. It's sad.Originally Posted by Mr_Miyagi
Actually i wasn't referring to you. What i read out from your posts is that you're one of those that care for the matter.
You are missing the point. Magic is not an investment, it's a collectible trading card GAME. Just because some people don't want to play, or don't want to care that other people do play, doesn't mean that it isn't an integral part of Magic.
I'm sick and tired of how many times people regurgitate the "I'm a collector, I'm entitled to this because it's part of collectible trading card games." We get it, collectors are part of the game. The fact that there's debate on this issue and that people are trying to suggest ways to solve it without screwing the secondary market proves that we get it.
However the reverse isn't true. For some reason or other, the same vomit-inducing collectors that spout their entitlement bullcrap don't seem to realise it's a game too. That means player's concerns are real and just as valid as theirs. I find it hilarious that these collectors point at things like the Reserve list and claim they're entitled to their investment. The only reason their "investment" has any value at all and keeps appreciating is because players exist. Hello? A thank you would be nice. Instead these people would rather marginalize the same group that's driving the value of their "investment" up and ignoring their concerns for the future of the game. Some of us actually care whether the guy sitting across us in a tourney a) exists, and b) has access to a half decent deck for us to play against.
The fact that you compared Magic to pieces of art or comic books proves you just don't get this. I mean, those things have value simply because they're old and hard to get. That is only one source of value when it comes to Magic cards. Would Black Lotus have appreciated if no one wanted it in their decks? Yes, probably, due to limited and small print runs. Would it have hit whatever it sells for now? Hell no. Going further, would any of the cards in your collection be worth much if nobody played the game? Hell no.
So the next time somebody has something constructive to say about card availability, spare us the selfish entitlement bullcrap. If players (and Wizards) can see things from your point of view, it would be nice if you'd return the favor.
/Thread
TIME POLICE
I understand that players are important to the game and the magic economy.
Future sight imo is the moment where everything changed. Tarmogoyf was the first card to sell for much more than 20,- from a new set. Before that time, cards like Kokusho and Cranial Extraction never topped 20,-.It was the roof for standard staples. After Tarmogoyf there were no limits on prices anymore. People were willing to shell out 65,- for a Tarmogoyf. If a type 2 card (with no abilities other than being an efficient beater) can reach 65,-, why shouldn't duals be more expensive? Was it normal that you can buy a booster pack today and trade your 1 Tarmogoyf for 2 Duals? (Cards that have been defining the game for 17 years.) Of course not! It was bound to happen that time would catch up on this fallacy and now duals stand above the most expensive card in standard, the way it should be.
I had an argument earlier this year. SCG was selling jace for 90,- and underground sea for 85,-. I told him Underground Sea was worth more than Jace, and that SCG's prices were wrong. This guy didn't agree with my statement that a standard card should never cost more than a format staple like u.sea with a track record of 17 years. In his opinion, Jace was more valuable based on the fact that SCG sold Jaces for more than Underground Seas. If you follow my logic, you wouldn't be surprised that Underground Sea is now worth more than Jace. Jace $79.99, Underground Sea $119.99. (BTW for those that are still building a collection in order to play their decks, this was yet ANOTHER opportunity to profit. You could have traded your Jace for Sea a couple of months ago)
The relation to standard prices is a big factor for the spike in Legacy prices. If standard decks like Planeswalker Control/Mythics could set you back $1000, is the real problem Legacy or is the problem somewhere else?
QFT!
Also, always as a new set gets introduced, there are some cards that are hyped and also reach the 40/50 prices, because all the t2 players think that it's gonne be the new goyf/jace, only to see prices drop two month's later to 15/20. ( when M11 came out baneslayer went for 32€ on ebay, now I can get it for 8€!!!, same with Venser, Mox opal, Koth, and so on, and exactly the way karn is going to go)
I was doing some real life trading the other day, and wanted to trade a mox, the moxdude said: No, I won't trade that because he is only going to become more worth... The Fuck.. that card just decreased 25€ in value !
Every T2 player just thinks every new card is pure cold, only to find out it isnt, and they loose hundred's of dollars because they had to have them when they came out.. And then they are sad.
And I am also guessing that those "eager spenders, everything is gold" noobs are now driving indirectly the legacy staples prices up.
This is particularly directed to bruizar, but is a more general thought that I feel was somewhat floating around the thread, but hasn't still been stated explicitly. To begin with, I am a collector as much as I am a player. I love to play Legacy both my my friends and at tournaments, but I also love to open my folder and see some of the cards that made me fall in love with the game a looooong time ago, even if many of them are largely unplayable (I'm looking at you, Mirror Universe!). I have to admit that I felt a bit of relief when Wizards announced their change about the reprint policy and the reserved list. It wasn't fair that everybody could own their Tabernacle for cheap, right? And I am still convinced that this is a reasonable statement.
Old, rare, niche cards should stay to a high price. It's ok to show off a bit with your White Stax deck with 2x tabernacle and 2x Moat, while your friend can still try to own you with a reasonably costed version of The Rock. Well, this was still true one year ago. There were some fringe very rare cards fetching absurd prices (mostly legends/p3k cards), but the vast majority of decks could be built with a reasonable investment. Collectors were happy with their incredibly valuable beta duals and imperial recruiters and players were happy to be able to play 95% of the archetypes with affordable revised duals.
At the present day, not only some of the old collector's staples have reached previously unbelievable values (e.g. Candelabra), but also non-pimp, not-really-old, not-even-rare cards are sold at ultra-high prices. It's not a matter of being collectors. Are you really so proud to show your friends you incredible playset of Wastelands? Really? What about your white bordered duals? Or non-altered FoWs? And I won't even talk about Sensei's Divining Top. I will definitely agree to protect collectors, as most of the people around here. Nobody wants to see foil duals being printed, so your (and mine!) beautiful black bordered duals are safe. Your average looking revised ones, though, should not be regarded as the Mona Lisa. Bruizar took Spiderman #1 as an example: well, original Spiderman #1 is to comics what beta duals are to magic. It's a "piece of art", very old and very rare. If you want it, you should be ready to spend a significant amount of money. But if you only want to read the story contained in Spidey #1, there's a lot of cheap reprints of any sort. If you want to play legacy, though, there's no cheap dual reprint available.
To the ones saying that this is a remote issue for the health of Legacy, I fear it's not. Many people here already have expressed the will to cash out. I'm thinking to sell part of my collection, too, as I can't really afford to keep up with the format anymore. Meanwhile, new players are already scared by the entry cost of the format. I fear that the growth of Legacy will be in serious danger sooner than many people think.
P.S.
Very good article, well written and well thought.
Last edited by Cthuloo; 05-16-2011 at 06:24 AM. Reason: some typos and other mistakes
Team Stimato Ezio: You're off the team!
People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use.
-Kierkegaard
OK. Who is going around creating alternate accounts with bad accents(not that i could tell what accent it was).
How do T2 players drive up Legacy staples that they do not buy and are not legal for the format?
Baneslayer only dropped due to the reprinting and Titans in general took over that spot in Standard.
Std cards always fluctuate during their time in the format. Examples like Stoneforge before Caw-Blade was around 3 dollars. Inferno Titan has been up during RUG peaks and down and up again. All the cards you listed have gone through that(Koth, Venser,Opal,Gideon).
I agree with everything you posted. It is true that non-pimp cards have become quiet expensive. I am not sure if reprinting is really the solution though. At least, don't reprint any format staple with black-borders. I would like alternatives. There is Dust Bowl, Wasteland, Ghost Quarter, but only Wasteland gets the love. Narrow printings like Koth of the Hammer and Tezzeret 2.0 are good I think. High power level but extremely limited in which archetypes you can play them. That would make the scene more diverse, even though it means that you would need even more different staples to build all the decks in legacy.
Reprint with orange borders in future-sighted frames. Problem solved.
I've been watching and it seems it's more of an EDH thing anymore driving everything. Surprising how popular that format is. It's single-handedly drove up the prices of foil legends and many oddball cards by itself.
I figure eventually the format will collapse upon itself, but it's got a while to go.
Worse idea ever! Us dutch will drive up price cause we'd all want them.
Quit playing Legacy but could still play Goblins (Rgw, Rg, Rw, Rb)
ジェームス・ブラウン
I'm staring in the mirror looking at my biggest rival.
Alright, I don't wanna step on your toes here, but I will be honest with you. While I can see where you're coming from and while I understand that collecting is a major part of the game to you, probably containing a large amount of nostalgia if I am correct... Well, some of us were not around to experience the early days of Magic. I did not start until Apocalypse, for example. I know that this may come off as if I have an unfair sense of entitlement, but... I do not think the playable cards should be that expensive. Really, the nostalgic value of your Legends Tabernacles should not go down just because they are reprinted. Because they are still some of the few Legends Tabernacles in existence. And other collectors like yourself will still go for those and not the cheap reprint. I have never really been able to see why it is that collectors think that because some monetary value might fall off their cards, they suddenly become worth less as collector's pieces. Some of us will never own a Moat because of this (Although if I did get my hands on one, I would probably write a song about it like this guy). I think it's fair enough that you like your BB duals. But really, I fail to see why you think those would be worth less as collectibles if they printed a set of foil duals. Yours will not disappear. Those new foil ones will not turn into Beta duals if you hold them under the full moon seven times while chanting MaRo's name. Again, I am not trying to enrage anyone, but I honestly feel that those who appreaciate cards as collector's pieces should be able to see that this is first and foremost a game, and that the essential gaming pieces should be widely available. Again, your old cards will not disappear because they are reprinted. So really, this should not be a problem for a true collector. Or what?
@ the considerations from dragon_whelp
I will try to make my position more clear. I think my feelings are shared by a good portion of players-collectors, but if I'm mistaken, anyone who thinks he falls in this category is free to correct me.
First of all, in the highly improbable case that Wizards reprints foil duals, the price of the black bordered ones probably would go down a bit. But more than this, I would have the feeling of having been somewhat cheated, since my "premium" version of the card would feel a bit less premium. I won't care that much, instead, if they reprint them in some different ugly version, although the majority of the duals I own are white bordered and will lose a lot of their value. This is were I draw the line between being a player and being a collector. It's like the difference from a very good violin and a Stradivari: you don't need a Stradivari to play in an orchestra, but you need a very good violin. If I owned a Stradivari, the production of new very good violins won't bother me at all.
Regarding the point I was trying to make with my tabernacle's example, I think my explanation wasn't clear enough. What I was trying to say is that the "collector's cartel" cares about a very small portion of the "problematic" cards. For Legacy, it's Tabernacle, Candelabra and Moat and some fringe P3K cards. These are not the cards that are making entering Legacy so difficoult for a new player: even if you can't play a small % of the decks, you still have an enormous choice of competitive decks at your disposal (and, in addition, if 90% of the deck of your choice is relatively cheap, you can more easily spare the money for the singleton ultra rare Moat). This was the situation roughly in 2009, and I was ok with that. If duals, wastes, FOWs and LED's prices were still low as they used to be, I think the future of the game would not be in danger at all, even if a handful of old cards played in a small minority of the decks were fetching very high prices.
What's happening now, is that not only the prices for the Stradivari are out of reach for most people, but also the very good violins are too expensive, so you either play shitty violins or go and learn to sing. This isn't a good thing for anyone.
One last point. Even though collectors of course exist, Magic isn't a Collectible Card Game anymore, since like 1996. The original idea behind the game was indeed that whoever had the strongest and more rare cards should profit and win. This was before ebay, before massive internet diffusion. Obtaining the most powerful cards was a hard and long process, and was part of the fun. The things changed when Wizards decide to turn a casual, amateur's game into a competition. For a competition to be fair, of course, everybody should start with the same tools, and the "Collectible" part of the game is somewhat kicked out. Magic is a "Collectible Cards" + "Card Game" now, and has been for 15 years at least. What's really trapping wizards is this kind of dichotomy, originated from a past view of the game that simply isn't true anymore today.
Team Stimato Ezio: You're off the team!
People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use.
-Kierkegaard
Fair enough. In that case, I agree with you completely.
Instead of talking s**t why don't people propose suggestions on how to change things?
First what is Legacy? What defines the format?
For me Legacy is all about the love for the game, variety, power and memories. It's characterized by the original duals, Force of Will, Brainstorm, LED, Dark Ritual, Karakas, etc and all the other powerful cards.
It is also (alongside Vintage) the format of collectors.
Collectors will always sought out the most rare versions. I have Revised duals however I've been recently buying Foreign Limited versions because I despise white border cards. For such I willing played 2 to 3 times more just for this particular version. There are people out there that only settle for Beta or Alpha versions. The point is a Beta version is a Beta version, with or without a functional reprint it will be worth the same. It's unique at will continue to be so.
A card's price is composed of collector value + playability. So reprints whether functional or not would benefit both players and collectors.
Now how can we improve things?
Suggestions to mitigate most of the problems that this article identifies:
- Create functional reprints of Legacy staples that are on the Reserve List
For example, create a UB dual exactly like the original but with the Tribal Land type, with a new name and picture.
- Introduce the concept of conditional restriction
For example, the total of number of OLD_STAPLE_X + FUNCTIONAL_REPRINT cards in your deck maxes out at 4.
- Introduce these cards at pre-constructed decks for EDH or maybe in limited sets (example From the Vault: Memories)
With these suggestions WOTC would make real money with the format, wouldn't alienate its player base, would most certainly introduce new players and keep collectors happy.
It's a pity that some people just point to solutions like "ban the duals" and don't understand that duals=Legacy.
So, propose suggestions. Make noise. Have WOTC listen and be force to make reasonable changes.
THe article was a good read, for sure. I'm one of those people 'new' to Legacy as a format and trying to get the staples I need to make it work, without spending too much cash on what is still just a game.
I dont know if anyone has suggested this yet, but I think there is another way around the reserved list that doesn't require reprinting cards like Force, Wasteland, and duels: print newer cards that are on-par with the power level of the older ones. People talk about 'power creep' in standard...and I think this is exactly what Wizards is doing to protect the reserved list AS WELL AS provide powerful alternatives to older cards. I see Mental Misstep as an indication of this...it isn't 'broken', but it is certainly powerful in the same way Force of Will is powerful.
Stay tuned...I think Wizards will figure this thing out before legacy goes the way of the buffalo...
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
Neither Force, nor Wasteland are on the Reserved List.
The reserved list that protects your Tabernacle, Candelabra, and Moat also prevents dual-lands from being widely available and affordable for new players. If you're playing a deck without dual-lands, you're almost certainly playing a deck with 8 colorless lands (sol-lands, wastelands, ports, mutavault) and expensive artifact-mana to boot (Diamond, Chrome, Opal). Building a mana-base for this format requires a small fortune any way you slice it. I could really care less if Tabernacle, Candelabra, and Moat remain rarities and collector's items, but for the good of the format mana has to become cheaper.
"You ain't no kinda man unless you got land."
If a newer cards is on-par with an older card everyone will simply with both cards maybe 4 of each. This however doesn't apply to duals has the fetchlands compose the larger part of the manabase and decks wouldn't want more than 4 of the same dual.
For example, take RB Goblins, UB Merfolk, 4c Counterbalance, ANT, TES, etc... these wouldn't play 8 of the same dual if available.
Solution:
- functional reprints for duals
- conditional restricting for other cards on the reserved list
- reprint older cards not on reserved list
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