Hello one and all! I'm posting to discuss/mull over/complain about the Legacy portion of Star City Games Orlando Open.
My 2 major Gripes are as follows-
1- Too much Mental Misstep
2- Scoop in the finals
On the first topic: Mental Misstep was in 12 of the top 16 decks. Let me say that again... 12 OF 16 DECKS!!! Why was it so prevalent? Well, it's the single most buzzed about card in the history of Legacy, everyone wanted to try it out, and it's probably also pretty good. Here's the thing, MM fits seamlessly into 2 of the most popular and successful decks in Legacy; Team America and Merfolk. So of course people that have those decks already are going to just throw MM in just to see how it does. Remember how 12 of the top 16 had MM? Well it probably should have been 13, since one of the top 16 was a Merfolk deck that for some reason completely forwent including MM, and instead played the build everyone had a month ago. It still made top 16 though, so whether through variance or (gasp) solid deckbuilding, that deck still performed extremely well. So, congratulations Chris Lewis ( http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=38349 ) for putting up the results without buying into the hype.
I'm very very interested to read just how many people included MM in their 75 for Orlando. I hope SCG reports on that. If only 30% of the field sleeved up MM but 75% of the top 16 included it, then we may very well be looking at a card that requires banning. However, this card has been at the center of so much speculation and hype that 75% of the field could easily have been playing MM this tourney. It will take a few more Opens for us to know just how over-powered (or not) MM is.
Unsurprisingly, in a field where 75% of the top players ran MM, a few decks that completely shunned 1-drops were gonna sneak into the top 16. Congrats to the two MEtalworker decks that made top 16. By essentially playing 2-drops as 1-drops (by focusing on playing 2-drops off of Sol-lands) these Metalworker decks played around the Mental Misstep Mayhem that predictably took place this weekend. But the overwhelming prevalence of blue still had the edge against these aggro/combo decks. Which brings us to...
Blue Control / Landstill. Hrmf. 15 MD counterspells (8 of which are free), 9 removal spells, 4 creature bouncing, card drawing, fate sealing win conditions, and 3 man lands for the hell of it. It was only a matter of time before enough good counterspells were printed that the All Counters deck became viable in Legacy. With variable casting costs making curves higher the slower and clunkier CounterTop may well have been usurped by the traditional card advantage engine of Standstill. I hope you've all dusted off your playsets of Vexing Shusher and Blurred Mongoose, because everything you play can get countered for free on T1 these days. Having creatures that trump counterspells is looking like a viable option in the post-MM metagame.
Gripe #2- Scooping in the Finals
Here's the thing, we all know that Gerry Thompson had nothing to gain by playing out the final match. His level wasn't going to increase (he's level 8 already, and there is no level 9) and the players had already agreed to split the cash, so there was no monetary incentive anymore. Gerry did what many consider the gentlemanly thing and scooped to Chris VanMeter so that Chris could improve his Level 5 closer to Level 6. Why does that matter? Why do I try so diligently to find things to complain about?
Because SCG has turned their Open Series into a spectator sport. SCG streams live feeds of tournament games while providing color commentary and subjecting its viewership to advertisements. They broadcast these tournaments to get players more interested in the game and to sell cards and Premium Memberships from SCG.com. Chat streams are enabled to allow spectators to jaw about the onscreen action. SCG polices these chats and lock out posters that are being inflammatory and obnoxious. SCG has put noticeable time, energy, and funds into building their Open Series to draw viewership by convincing their audience that what they see on SCGLive MATTERS.
Did you catch that last part? They want people to tune in to find out what the best new deck and best new tech is this week. They want people to pick up those fun, new Mental Missteps (NOW ONLY $6.99 APIECE AT STARCITYGAMES.COM!!!), but to convince them of such SCG must first make them care.
How can we care about a tournament when the people playing in it don't even care about winning?
That's a question SCG will need to address if it continues to sell the Opens as participant AND spectator pastimes. To reach a comfortable medium, SCG might have to backtrack and re-arrange some of their existing policies.
The first (and most obvious) way to guarantee players still have incentive to win is to do away with prize-splitting options. That's right, no more confidential votes before each round of top 8 play to decide if the remaining players will all get equal compensation. The whole basis of the prize-split option was to lend a level of transparency to the big money portion of the event. SCG didn't want players giving each other kick-backs in exchange for wins in the final rounds of the tournament. That kind of behavior sullies the reputation of the event. So SCG imposed a system where players could alleviate the stress of playing for money by splitting up the cash evenly and letting the players play for the title instead. This was done with nothing but good intentions, and has probably kept a shady deal or two from going down (scoop me into the finals because I have a positive MU against both decks in the other bracket and I'll give you a kickback!).
The problem with the prize-split comes from SCG offering another prize: Player Points. These points allow for Byes in the opening rounds of a SCG tournament, free merchandise, free entrance fees, and even appearance fees and free sets to Level 6 and higher players. SCG stated that they wanted to reward players that came out to multiple events. Rewarding consistent players had several upsides for SCG. First, it gives incentives for players to play in as many SCG events as they can. Playing in more events means more player points, which means more byes, and a greater likelihood that said player will end up in the money. Second, it allows SCG to brand their Open Series by attaching familiar faces to the events. Come to the next Open! You might even play against a name as big as Drew Levin or Edgar Flores! You know, celebrities...
?
The problem comes in when we have a situation like we did in Orlando. One player has already achieved the highest level SCG bestows, the other is still building his resume. The players have agreed to split the prize money. The level 8 player then scoops to the level 5 player. It's only the right and noble thing to do.
And it's corrupt.
Money hasn't exchanged hands, but player points have. The viewing audience has been cheated out of the time and attention they invested in the tournament over the course of the day. It is very much like watching a team throw a Super Bowl or World Series. Just because there's another tournament next week doesn't make this one any less valid.
I don't hold either of the players responsible for this, by the way. I want to make it clear that StarCityGames is the culprit for giving Top-Players like Gerry Thompson disincentives to win. Clearly Gerry is a nice guy, but SCG wasn't selling us on watching nice guys make deals. We were supposed to be watching top level competitive Magic, where we could see how decks played in various MUs and how new cards were shaping the format. We tuned in to watch the game we love. Instead, at its very zenith, we saw two players gaming the system for entirely understandable (and even cordial) reasons.
SCG needs to do away with either the player points system or the prize split if they wish to maintain credibility in the outcomes of their events. After all, wasn't that why they started them in the first place? To see which deck was best?
I'd like to end by saying, once again, that I don't think less of either of the players involved in the finals. This is not meant to be an attack on either of their characters. SCG has structured their competitive events in such a way that results like this are inevitable. The players are not at fault, the tournament organizers are. I sincerely hope that SCG can find a solution to minimize the possibility of future finals being conceded in similar ways.
I think byes are the most annoying part of these series and competitive MtG in general. When a player only has to win a handful of games to make top 8 (and byes also tend to make for better tie-breakers), it makes it seem like they don't have to try anywhere nearly as hard to do well as a local player who's coming in without that advantage. Granted, they had to earn those byes, but I think there should be a limitation to how long you get to use them --- perhaps it could be like each tournament functions as a 'trial' for the next one, so to earn byes you needed to have done well at the prior one. This still rewards grinders, but they need to maintain their success more than having a static advantage.
You also have a situation where these 'pros' can build their decks based on a smaller expected metagame. In legacy, a "good deck" can have lots of trouble with "bad" decks like burn or dredge if they don't devote a significant portion of their SB/MD with these matchups in mind. But if you are entering the tournament with 3 byes, you will have to worry far less about seeing tireless tribes or magus of the moons and can devote more slots for beating the (perceived) "good" decks that did the hard work of knocking those outlier decks from contention in the early rounds.
The final scoop is very unsportsmanship act. If VanMeter really have what it takes to reach level 5.5 or 6 then he should prove it. Not by getting the free points from Thompson's scoop.
If I were VanMeter I would have told Thompson to cut the crap and play the match.
While that would've been better for the community, as a personal choice it would've been stupid. I know Gerry the Punter was going to be his finals opponent, the guy has won a GP before, and is a better player than Drew Levin. Also, on paper, it looks like he has a terrible match up against that deck.Originally Posted by Ben
I don't have a problem with the scooping and splitting. It was a Sunday, some of those gentlemen might have a long drive that evening/next day ahead of them, gotten very little sleep throughout the weekend, etc. Sometimes you just don't want to play it out, nor do you have any obligation to play it out.
I do think the bye situation is pretty iffy given the length of the tournament and think that while one bye is fine for a eight round event, two byes is just too much an advantage. That being said I don't think the top decks are at all too inbred for a more developed metagame and haven't been throughout the year, so I don't think there is a competitive advantage in terms of deck selection/construction that you get from the byes.
Regarding Mental Misstep-New good card gets play, no big deal. It's not enabling anything degenerate. Legacy is always full of blue decks even when there's not a new hot card to play.
Dude, if I were you OP, I'll stop complaining and just play well in one of the SCG, beat up to the Top 2, and then when they interview you there, you can really point it out live on the situation.
Well, I plan to do that, but I have a lot of practice/polishing up to do :P
Decks that I care about:
Steel Stompy
UWx Landstill
Dreadstalker
DDFT (10% practice)
Mangara on MWS? You must be masochistic. -kiblast
I don't see anything wrong with the act of scooping, behind taking the "excitement" of the finals from the viewers, along with the fact that the most important match of the day is not played. I think that if SCG politely asked them to play it out, they would without a doubt. I mean, if the same players refure over and over again, I guess they could revoke some benefits from them.
Just my 2 cents-
It's also scientifically proven that resolving Nicol Bolas during a competitive legacy event causes the caster's penis to grow a good two or three inches.
What did you expect, exactly?
If anything, I'm surprised how much Team America managed to rise up in a field of Merfolk that can defend their Vials from Misstep pretty well. Merfolk flooding the top 8 doesn't surprise me. And I'm surprised there wasn't more Landstill.
On top of the Mental Misstep flood, did you notice that fifteen of the top sixteen decks ran Blue? Granted, two of them did it for just one card, but still. That's a fucking flood of blue.
The format will adjust, but it's going to be interesting to see how exactly it does so. I'm surprised U/G Madness didn't sneak in anywhere, and I wonder if anybody piloted it. It's been a monster for a bunch of us in testing. The deck dodges Misstep amazingly well with Wild Mongrel, Aquamoeba, Arrogant Wurm, Vengevine, and LED leading the charge.
You want a random card to go pick up, Zoo/Goyf Sligh/GW Aggro players? Leyline of Lifeforce seems strangely good right now. Fifteen of the sixteen decks in the top 16 can and will counter creatures (Again, Death and Taxes being the exception.) I can't help but think that a good threat-heavy GW aggro deck with Leyline of Lifeforce and a light but versatile removal suite would have done quite well here.
Also, begin your preparations now to beat Standstill. While I strongly expect the UW lists in the top to evolve by at least ten cards over the next few months, they're going to be around. And other color builds are going to emerge. And some Merfolk decks are going to pack it.
If you were to go that far, wouldn't you just run Shusher since he's another body and protects burn/etc?
It's kinda ridiculous, I really want to see the whole breakdown of SCG. I really believe most of the players, or at least the best player, had played these tempo-blue decks, or decks in which MM fits well. I mean, BoM 5 had mental misstep all over, but also a lot of different decks. It's more likely that SCG player got biassed by MM hype, and since most of them run MM, it got that huge amount of tops.
Could anyone link some data like that?
If you fail to explain the reason behind your choice, technically, it's the wrong choice.
Zerk Thread -- Really, fun deck! ^^
Misstep is a format staple. It belongs with the most played cards in the format; FoW,Brainstorm,Daze,Wasteland.
I think Taco is correct and I feel Landstill is still a good deck. Deedstill top 8'd the last GP and It just took down BOM5. The deck is underplayed but very good(might be the $2000 price tag for Deedstill).
Lifeforce seems techy for GW Maverick or Zoo.
Summoning Trap!!!
"Sure, you can counter my Nacatl/Lackey for free. Can I take a Relicary/Goyf/Siege-Gang now from my top7?"
That's something I want to see!
Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.
This isn't actually all that bad of a card to mention. You might be on to something there sir.
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* Maverick is dead. Long live Maverick!
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Byes are a fact of this game, and it's the only convenient way for SCG to encourage players to play across state lines without shelling out actual cash for doing well at the last 5k. They've been a part of competitive magic for god knows how long, and frankly, because they're at the beginning of the tournament (when the field has not yet been winnowed down) they reduce variation for the people that put in the time to qualify for them.
When one person has a lot to gain from winning a match, and the other has very little, it stands to reason that some sort of prize split/thing will occur. It might be a little bit of a letdown, but they happen. I'd like them to still play the finals, just to see how it would go though. Kind of as a courtesy thing.
EDIT: I should mention, though, that even taking into consideration his 250$ appearance fee, Gerry T still had 1150 reasons not to split and scoop if he thought he could win. He is either remarkably generous, thought he would lose the match due to a bad matchup or something, tired at the end of two day-long tournaments, or just off his rocker. Pick whichever ones seem most likely to you, or...you know...maybe find out.
Mental Misstep is very good. Just because Wasteland also showed up as a 3-4 of in 7 of the decks in the top 8 doesn't mean it should be banned, so why ban Mental Misstep? We're just all used to seeing lots of copies of Wasteland/Force of Will/Brainstorm in a top 8, and while you could argue that all those could be banned, I wouldn't pay much attention to you.
On top of that, the decks that were in the top 8 happened to be blue because those strategies benefited the most from having access to a turn 0 versatile answer that was relevant in the late game as well. Back when I started playing, before all my friends and I understood things like mana-bases and mana curves and all that, Force Spike was like this: Every blue deck I built ran it, and nearly every single time I drew it in my opening hand it was outrageously relevant, because it helped to fill the one gap the deck had, which was a strong early creature or artifact I couldn't answer. My friends couldn't play around it very easily, because even back then we understood that sitting around waiting for the mana to pay the tax on your strategy wasn't a good decision.
If there were a creature-based deck, similar to zoo, whose curve essentially started at 2, having turn 1 plays that were relevant but not essential to the deck's working, they would have benefited just as much as Landstill or Team America did. I guess the problem people ran into in Orlando was that MMS in a control deck is an insanely effective answer to early game aggression, and especially in this format, a great protector of your win conditions. MMS in an aggro deck is only there to fight opposing Mental Missteps; we saw tons of Merfolk in the top 16 not because they're blue and they inherently benefit to a greater degree from running MMS than other aggro decks, we saw them there because they're the best aggro deck in the format.
The ONE Merfolk deck in the top 16 that didn't run MMS got there on the strength of other cards. He probably had statistically a harder time getting there than the other Merfolk pilots. Or he's just better. Or he had good matchups. Or he mulliganed correctly when others didn't. Or his MD was better set up for the meta. Or his SB was better set up for the meta. Or he drew better. One outlier does not a statistic make, and one top 16 that included many copies of a single card also doesn't prove the card is ban-worthy, because they've all included craptons of playsets of cards that we just kind of shrugged at and thought "Huh, 28 copies of FoW. Go figure."
Standstill just got substantially better with the printing of MMS, which was illustrated in some of the Landstill matches at the recent SCG Open. Between MM, FOW and Spell Snare you can counter any turn 1 or 2 threats from your opponent and then drop your Standstill. Before MMS if you didn't have a FOW and your opponent dropped a threat on turn 1 your Standstill was dead in hand. MM changes all that and Gerry T exploited this new interaction.
I am pretty excited with the printing of MMS. For one, I have been playing Landstill prior to this and am looking forward to the increased potency of the deck. I can understand how people will be upset with the shake up that MMS will cause to the metagame. People always get upset when there is a big change especially if a pet deck of theirs loses ground. While MMS gives more power to "blue" decks in general, what it really does it make a pure Blue/X control deck a viable metagame choice, something that was lacking up until now. I am looking forward to this. I still think there is plenty of room for aggro and combo, they just have to adapt.
MMS is going to slow the format down a bit and force people to really think through their plays and not just get by with a bunch of powerful 1 (and 2) drops. I think this will be good for the format and I think it increases the level of strategy involved in deck building and decision making.
Lastly, I would tell people not to freak out too much. This is only the first big tournament with MMS legal. Lets give it some time to settle in.
Its quite expected there is gonna be loads of misstep and fow in the top 8 when 13/16 are blue based decks. Dont see how its a surprice that blue decks with running it...
The top X already split (don't know if it was 4 or 8.)
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Does that change anything?
I think people are overreacting. This is just one tournament and of course there will be lots of missteps, this isn't like survival where one deck is just owning everything.. As others have mentioned its just a card like force, waste etc. Just a few tournaments okay High Tide was doing well and everyone said omg combo is taking over ban Time Spiral. As far as people saying zoo/goblins/dredge are dead, I don't agree with that. I do think there will be some changes, such I don't think zoo needs to be 40 1 drops and lands. There are plenty of cards that are good vs these control decks such as Vexing Shusher and Thrun, the Last Troll
Literally, serious question.. How does Gerry T's "break out" new deck beat Thrun or even the little troll that no one plays anymore?
Infinite Factory blocks
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