I only say that because Nic Fit is primarily a control deck and the deck I'm designing is much more of an aggro deck. The mana is abused in a different, somewhat more passive way than Nic Fit uses it, I'm not dropping huge fatties and I'm not playing massive board wipes etc. Nic Fit blows a hole in the bottom of the boat, I'm just drilling holes in it and watching it sink, if that makes any sense.Originally Posted by Megadeus
I don't want to derail this thread anymore than it has already; I'd like to keep the list under wraps right now until I do some work with it.
My main point was that Hornet Queen at best 5-for-1's and at worst forces them to Wrath of God the board or something just to get through it. If your build of Nic Fit can reliably hit 8 mana, consistently, the value Hornet Queen presents is brutal. Thresh, Maverick, and any tribal aggro deck might as well scoop if it resolves, they'd lose way too much trying to get through it while you beat them to death with some enormous fattie.
@Claymore,
In fact, I don't like either. I don't think it boils down to the same argument as Pulse and Deeds and mana requirements for defensive measures. Pulse and Deeds have more application than Kokusho and don't have the same vulnerabilities. I think Kokusho is one of those EDH cards you put in Nic Fit because the ability is so appealing. It would be like packing a singleton Lightning Helix with my Volrath Tower combo so that I can recur Helix every turn via Witness to win against Ensnaring Bridge.
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
Ok guys, inspired by the omni show deck at the scg open today, I have an idea.
What about running gbw with rector package and 1-2 omniscience and the living wish package? It's just an idea now but just maybe it can work. Probably is bad though.
Instant win though. Omnicience in play, play Living Wish for free, fetch Emrakul,m play for free, extra turn, attack. Living Wish is also playable without it, getting you a land you need so much, or getting you a useful creature.
I personally think it's a bit 'win more', but you could try it. Why not.
In the above pages here there's a lot of discussion about what Nic Fit really is. Some people play it as a slow combo deck, that first holds off the opposition and later wins with tricks around Palinchron or so. Other people play it like a classic Rock deck, that defends until its big dudes or planeswalkers take over. A list with Rector into Omnicience would fit in the first category. I do think that after some testing you will probably prefer a combo shell with Palinchron, because it requires less slots, making the rest of the deck more consistent.
Just to bring this to the awareness of the Nic-Fit players out here. This is entirely theoretic, but this card could be a good meta-consideration: Ifh-Biff Efreet.
It deals with all the win-conditions of the U/W Miracle deck, and it is only a 3 turn clock (7 damage per turn-switch):
Jace, the Mind Sculptor - Redirect damage to planeswalkers
Vendillion Clique - Kills Clique for G
Entreat the Angels - Kills Entreat for GGGG
Snapcaster Mage - Bigger than Snapcaster Mage
It seems that the best creatures against U/W Miracles are (in order of manacost):
Sylvan Safekeeper - Shuts down plowshares / jace bounce, but you want to resolve Gaddock Teeg first
Gaddock Teeg - Shuts down Terminus, Entreat the Angels, Jace and Force of Will. This is clearly the best disruptor in the pack
Ifh-Biff Efreet - Kills all win-conditions and puts them on a 3-turn clock. Very cost efficient beater, and your opponent doesn't have access to green mana.
The problem with Ifh-Biff Efreet is that he is very narrow. Stoneblade can ignore him, RUG and Maverick can kill him. If you are in a meta expecting a lot of U/W Miracles, this card seems like a good 1-off sideboard slot, though it may be somewhat redundant with Gaddock Teeg.
Omniscience already enables infinite Recurring Nightmare loop and nightmare is already tutorable with other Rectors you have in the deck AND you already have one of the likes of Kokusho, Grave Titan, Thragtusk or whatever to win on spot/win next turn.
To complete the combo, you need lot of pieces, but given that Rector build is control (thus long games), runs Top and Omniscience takes only one slot, it might be very well worth including as "Oops, I win" button in grindy matches (Control) or games where you do not meet a lot of interacton from opponent's side (Combo).
I believe dropping 2-3 bombs from hand off a single Rector activation on turn 4 will actualy win you a fair amount of games too.
This is all theory and might end up being danger of cool things or 4-color monstrosity (yeah, you sometimes want to Brainstorm away that topdecked 1-of), but the way Omniscience flows into Rector build looks promising.
On more general thought, it looks like the deck needs another angle of attack. Arianrhod's success with Scapeshift and bruizar's team development of combo build seems to be it, but the question is about proportions between pure control and that different angle.
I worked on a list that uses excess mana to straight discard/drop fat (kinda Eva Green on steroids) to give a deck aggro-midrange angle, but failed to find a balance between control and beatdown/disrupt elements.
Last edited by eq.firemind; 08-27-2012 at 08:30 AM.
Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way.
I feel as if scapeshift is superior. While you don't get to run fetches, you don't have to change much of the deck due to really only devoting 3 main and 1 side slot for the combo. It is a one card, non graveyard dependant combo.
what do you think about Boseiju in the scapeshift/blue combo versions? It's tutorable via Primeval Titan and nice to have against decks with lots of counters, f.e. UBGx landstill or UW miracle. Although I guess it could hurt that it comes tapped, especially together with valakuts, not sure.
With therapies and just playing big dudes in general you should be fine. If they don't counter your midrange beaters then they just die to them, and if they do they run out and you scapeshift them, and then therapy can strip their action to stop you. I think that you really cannot run many utility lands due to the nature of your combo kill.
Edit: also if you are resolving prime time you are winning anyway. From there you just need one more attack phase or make a few more land drops
It is not as simple as 3 MD slots, because it affects manabase. You have to run many Mountains and you have to run 2 lands that enter the battlefield tapped.
Don't get me wrong, one can't argue with results.
I just wanted to point out that such approach is underdeveloped and from what I read here, Rector build misses that magic button that fits the deck and drasticly changes the pace of game. I mean, when you Scapewin for 18+ damage out of nowhere, not only you win this game, but your opponent has to change his strategy a lot.
While he knows the trick now, he still needs to devote his resources and his mental efforts to not die from something that your deck (or what he thinks your deck is) shouldn't normaly do.
I guess that is something like what Natural Order did to thresh and bant decks some time ago.
Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way.
Other than the changes to the mana base though it is a 1 card kill condition. You do open yourself to wasteland a bit, but it's not like the standard valakut decks that had to run 11 basic mountains in their essentially mono green deck. In legacy you get to run duals as your mountains. I'm not explicitly stating that it is the better combo deck, but the only real disruption for valakut is LD or countering the Shift/Green sun for primetime. And even then, this deck is not reliant on scapeshift. It's just a built in oops I win combo for your Nic fit deck rather than it being reliant on it. In shift fit you essentially can just win from a deed plus a big dumb beater a lot of the time.
Yeah, that's exactely what I mean and I think Rector build misses that.
Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way.
I recognize the benefits of scapeshift. It is a game ending spell. This is very strong. The problem I see with scapeshift is that it is a useless topdeck if you do not have sufficient lands in play. Burning wish mitigates this, but burning wish requires more than just scapeshift to be good, otherwise you might as well use scapeshift maindeck. yhis means that you are running both a silverbullet sideboard with gsz targets as well as wish targets, which pretty much lock in the majority of sideboard slots for you. if you are willing to accept those sacrificed sideboard slots, then this is pefectly fine. I dont think the wish plan is bad, but it is imprtant to note what consequences it has to the manabase and sideboard of your deck. Playing Scapewish comes at a cost (fetchless inconsistencies and sacrificed sideboard slots).
The Gifts Ungiven build currently has the least broken packages. It does not win the game nor does it set up disruption quiet like intuition. Perhaps better packages can be created with gifts, but this is something we should keep in mind for the future. I would rather cast a lethal scapeshift than a non lethal gifts.
I see Academy Rector as a potential route to victory as well, though it is prone to stifle and graveyard removal more so than other versions of the deck. Omniscience, Dovescape and many other enchantments have very powerful effects, but i have too little handson experience with rector to provide a well formulated opinion on the rector-build. Its important to note that academy rector requires sack outlets to work, which is an extra condition that you must meet. In a rector build with omniscience, i would probably run diabolic intent, just so i can gran omniscience with rector and living wish diabolic intent, then wish for emrakul and win in the same turn.
The reason why we like intuition so much is because it is good in every phase of the game. Apart from simply comboing out with it, you can grab 3x cabal therapy and put someone into topdek mode immediately. This makes te control matchup far easier. We like the versatility of intuition over all the othe options, because intuition lets you sculpt a game plan according to the situation. Tapped out opponent prone to. Iona? Unburial rites to end the game now. Too many threats in hand? Triple therapy. Need to slow the aggro down? Eternal witness loops. Infinite mana? Palinchron rites and image. Need to push the panic button? Pernicious deeds.
This is something that only this version can do. Gifts cant get multiple copies of the same card, burning wish can do only as much as you are willing to dedicate in your sidebaord and can only grab 1 card (not 3 therapies
For example), and rector is a different type of bomb that sort of just woks differently.
So, what i think is best is a 1 card combo that can be applied in all situations and phases of the game for value. These options are intuition and burning wish. This is why i see their respective builds as the most competitive versions, even though the 'optimal list' still has to be found.
When you say "most competitive" I assume you mean of the combo versions?
@sumbahdy: Just keep practicing. I don't know that build runs but I think this is a good deck :D
I used a BRG list last sunday here in the PH.
R1 - Bye
R2 - 2-0 vs SneakShow My teammate gave me the win
R3 - RUG Control 2-1. Won G2 via Tsunami :) G3 - He played early goyfs while I had the EE down for 2. I won via aggro
R4 - BW 1-2 Made a mistake on G3 running only 1 land with 1 SDT. It was a bad gamble and that cost me the game (on that note, G2 ended really bad because I had the SDT online and the next 6 cards were lands without even any fetches, tough break)
R5 - Enchantress 1-0-1 - Won G1. He got the humility out on G2 but I manage get him down to 1. Time was called. He had 2 angels and I had 1 Broodmate and 1 Explorer on turn 5. Just for fun, I played Haunting Echoes before we scooped.
R6 - ANT splash Red (not TES due to lack of Orims or Silence) 0-2 I playtests with an ANT and TES a lot and I REALLY don't know how to win against these decks. I was praying not to play against combo
R7 - UW Stoneblade - Lost G1. Won G2 via Tsunami again. Ended with a draw but gave me the win
So far, the deck runs nice here. My teammate used this list and got him in the Top4 2 weeks ago. Top 4 were 3 Miracles and 1 Jund NicFit
Anyone who can suggest a good SB? I had these cards:
2 Extirpate
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Tsunami
1 Boil
1 Haunting Echoes
4 Duress
3 Pyroblast
1 Damnation
I respectfully disagree, I can remember the first few times I played against a deck with Gifts Ungiven in it. "4 cards, you say? Well, at least I get to choose two. Oh, they all have synergy with each other so basically you got all 4 cards anyway? ffffuuuuuu"
If you have 2U and 3W for Intuition > Unburial rites then you have 3U and 3W for Gifts > rites
EDIT: You can just wish for Unburial rites and Griselbrand (thanks Viridia!)
A good panic pile is
Deed
Pulse
Witness
Tower
With that pile you can take care of goblin swarms and multiple delvers once you untap.
I would love to have a discussion on gifts piles and how they can be exploited in Nic Fit.
Last edited by Star|Scream; 08-27-2012 at 02:29 PM.
In the build that i played with for a short time (in testing) i usually ended up using Gifts for either Mass removal (Deed, Pulse, Witness, Tower or possibly Deed, Witness, Recurring Nightmare, Coiling Oracle) or a way to close out the game easily (Jace, Garruk, Witness, something(often another Gifts)
Also you can just Gifts for Rites and a Fatty and no other card and they'll both end up in your graveyard.
See, this is what I mean! Thanks for that info I didn't know but should have known!
I don't think it will work. Gifts' text says for four, not for up to four.
Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way.
You can fail to find.
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