[Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)

[TheArchitect]

So I didn't go to NELC this past weekend, but I'm going to Mythic this week. And its the first time Ive played in a competitive legacy tourny since last spring. I haven't used the rector version much and was hoping for some advice, on my list most specifically my sideboard.

Anyways, hers the list I plan to run:
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
2 Academy Rector
2 Baneslayer Angel
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Grave Titan
1 Sun Titan

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Innocent Blood
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Vindicate

1 Diabolic Intent
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Faith's Fetters

2 Phyrexian Tower
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath

3 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland

3 Forest
3 Plains
2 Swamp

Sideboard:
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Extirpate
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Memoricide
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Stony Silence
1 Humility
1 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Duress
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Scavenging Ooze

- I dont own, or know anyone that owns a moat or chains however, they probably would actually be good to have.

- Even with Moat, I haven't felt the need to have Kokusho. I think Grave Titan will do well, especially since I wont be running moat anyways. For this slot, I have been contemplating Angel of Despair or even Elesh, how has that been for people?

- On a side note: I have really liked baneslayers with no moat. In my GB list, I still wouldnt leave home without 3 abyssal persecutors and baneslayers fill that role, just better with access to white.

- Duress, the 4th deed and Ooze, I am not sure I need in the SB.

- Demonic Intent I havent used much, but I really like the sounds of it.

- I really like having some 1cc target removal to beat those "unbeatable" RUG hands and to help deal with lackys, bobs, revokers on deed and other stuff. Arianrhod, I noticed has Sakura tribe elders basically in that slot; how well did they perform? Do you ever miss 1cc removal?

Mostly, I could really use some help with exact sideboard plan (ex: RUG: +3 carpet, -3 whatever, etc). The MD is so tight I could use some help on what exactly to take out/put in for each given matchup. I expect the typical popular decks, but also more MUD, goblins, storm, and decks with dark confidant than your average meta. I could definitly use help against goblins, MUD and BWx bob/hymn decks. I have little experience playing them with the rector build, but I know even with the BG build, I have always had a lot of trouble with those matchups.

[lambert101]

Your going to need the fourth deed at mythic. Their is always a bunch of maverick. Also pack more Duress because you know I will be packing grapeshot

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Alrighty then: came up with the most expensive, yet most versatile combo engine for GBu Nic Fit.

Recurring Nightmare + Great Whale (or Palinchron if you don't want to slap someone in the face with a whale) + any creature.

So freakin' versatile: You could storm, gravestorm, infinite X spells, or infinite etb ltb triggers and effects. Hell throw in an eternal witness instead of any old creature and you got yourself infinite of any instant or sorcery.

What would you use as a finisher for any given matchup?

[PollePotDK]

So, over the past couple of weeks I have gotten to play some with GBW Rector and Scapewish and gained some experience.

GBW Rector:
I allways side out Fierce Empath+Kokusho/Yosei combo in exchange for more suiting cards in SB (same list as a couple of pages back). I feel like it to slow and I allways want something else in those spots. Really hope, that there will be som decent 5-drops in coming expansions, since Fierce Empath is only there for Sun titan (granted broken with Deed recurrence) and Kokusho/Yosei. That's 3 spots for something else. I'm tempted to take them out for Scavenging Ooze and something else, maybe som Enchantment generel hate, but don't know what.

Scapewish:
Played this deck mainly against Goblins and Maverick. Versus Goblins I'm missing Lightning Bolts, so they're coming in, but don't know for what (list is Arainhodr standard list). I'm allways on the heels in this match-up. Maybe I'm playing this one wrong, since Explorer ramp Goblins too and we cant interact with hasty goblins except with Deed out. Versus Maverick (this particular build features singleton Armageddon main and 2 SB, Terravore, Aven mindvensor and Ooze) I have been raped 0-8 lately, because of armageddon. That card is sick. I know not all Maverick players doesn't play with armageddon, but for some reason more players at my local have this card (maybe because they hate playing against my Nic Fit builds ). Should I just say "ohh well, that's one match-up that cant be won?" Scapewish is very bad against Armageddon I feel, since it's in more top-deck mode than GBW Rector. That's just my experience.

Think Scapewish is being put on the shelf for some time and focus on GBW Rector. Haven't had that glorious moments with that build, as with GBW Rector.

Have anyone else met Armageddon?

/PollePotDK

[Cire_dk]

So, over the past couple of weeks I have gotten to play some with GBW Rector and Scapewish and gained some experience.

GBW Rector:
I allways side out Fierce Empath+Kokusho/Yosei combo in exchange for more suiting cards in SB (same list as a couple of pages back). I feel like it to slow and I allways want something else in those spots. Really hope, that there will be som decent 5-drops in coming expansions, since Fierce Empath is only there for Sun titan (granted broken with Deed recurrence) and Kokusho/Yosei. That's 3 spots for something else. I'm tempted to take them out for Scavenging Ooze and something else, maybe som Enchantment generel hate, but don't know what.

/PollePotDK

I am aware that Fierce empath has been dicussed several times and there is a lot of love for this card.
I often found it to narrow. There have been many occassion were a Baneslayer would have been better to than a 6 drop. For this reason I have been thinking about cutting fierce and replace it with Eladamris Call. One mana less , instant (so playable end of their turn) and it can get any creature, It is not a sacable body but it will give me more options in case I already have a six drop in hand.
Since I am fairly new to this deck I might be missing an important point so feel free to point it out to me

Titan has been amazing for me and will stay for the time being,
I would also love a third Eternal witness to make the recurring nightmare loop more likely but no space for that card :-(

[eq.firemind]

People like to be able to grab non-green finishers with Green Sun's Zenith. That's why they play Fierce Empath in the first place.

[Alexeezay]

@ EpicLevelCommander:
what the fuck, GREAT WHALE? Hahaha :D Unfortunately Palinchron is just better...
we need more whales

[Giggioz]

Hi guys, i would like to share with yuou my experience with this awesome deck.

I started playing GBw for a while (swords, canonist, qsali, gaddock) but in july i switched for the GBr version (punishing fire, broodmate dragon, huntmaster --> wow!) with a powerful sideboard plan against combo and control.

Here the list:

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Broodmate Dragon
4 Punishing Fire
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Bayou
2 Badlands
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
3 Forest
2 Phyrexian Tower

//Sideboard

SB: 3 Extirpate
SB: 1 Surgical
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Duress
SB: 2 baloth
SB: 1 thrun

Against blue based is not uncommon to side in 13 cards, making the mu pretty easy.
Main deck punishing fire, big threats and sweepers are great against any kind of aggro and aggro control.

With this deck i did pretty well in a lot of small tournaments but i missed twice a top8 in a 50+ players competition... the deck is strong and flexible but it's too "fair"... i felt i needed something that sometime just wins.

For this reason i netdecked blindly a scapeshift version the day of another tournament making some little adjustments, here the list :

2 Swamp
2 Bayou
6 Forest
3 Mountain
4 Badlands
4 Taiga
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
1 Volrath's Stronghold Creatures
2 Huntmaster of the Fells/Ravager of the Fells
1 Thragtusk
2 Sakura
2 Eternal Witness
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Primeval Titan
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Scapeshift
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Burning Wish
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Maelstrom Pulse

Sideboard

1 Scapeshift
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Reanimate
1 Memoricide
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Innocent Blood
1 Damnation
1 Thoughtseize
1 Profane Command
1 Firespout

With this list i won all the 6 games of the swiss and lost 1-2 in the final due to a lack of knowledge about the interaction between scapeshift and wasteland :|

By the way, this what i wanted! A strong deck, with a nice aggro-control plan that sometimes just draws a card and says "I WIN".

With this deck i won some games that would be impossible with thepunishing fire version.

The lessons i learnt from the tournament were the following :

Volrath is nice and helps you to combo out if you have veteran on the grave, but pyrexian tower allows you strong plays, in addition pyrexian tower help to avoid being sworded :)

All the other maindeck cards did well.

Sideboard: i think i wished for all the cards but profane command...it was my personal addition and i feel it's a nice card (maybe a C plan to win?) but usually when i have all this mana i go for scapeshift.

Carpet of flowers is ok, i got it alwayas countered. It shines vs canadian but against other blue based deck i feel i want something with more impact.

Compared with my punishing fire version this deck is weaker against combo (we have only memoricide to wish!) and UW miracle/stoneblade because this sideboard plan is less effective.

Jace is a bitch and wins alone, countertop hurts wish, terminus controls the board and in few turns they find entreat the angels eot....

Even burn it's not so easy as it appears, we have to ramp quickly and zenith for 5 lifes or die... and the scapeshift plan doesn't work beacause the POP us in response...in addition we have no good wish targets to take!!!

For this reason i thought to change some cards maindeck and sb, transforming a good deck in a junk deck, but i like it!

I want to introduce you my last version with those sweet additions!

2 Swamp
2 Bayou
5 Forest
3 Mountain
4 Badlands
4 Taiga
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
1 Volrath's Stronghold Creatures
1 Pyrexian Tower
2 Huntmaster of the Fells/Ravager of the Fells
1 Thragtusk
2 Sakura
2 Eternal Witness
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Primeval Titan
------------------> 1 Terastodon !!!
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Scapeshift
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Burning Wish
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Maelstrom Pulse

Sideboard

1 Scapeshift
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Reanimate
1 Memoricide
3 Red Elemental Blast
--------------->3 Pyroblast
1 Innocent Blood
1 Damnation
1 Thoughtseize
--------------->1 Natural Order!!!
1 Firespout

Don't laugh :)

Terastodont is HUGE!
One maindeck card answers in a shot to Jace and Counterbalance, puts a consistent race against anyone, creates a big defence against tribals and aggro decks.
If you play it from your hand (not impossibile, just 8 mana) against blue based, they have only force to answer to it!

With the addition of a natural order in side you can put it into play sacrifing a green creature...and you can do this few turns before scapeshifting if you are in a hurry.

I tested this in a small tournament and in one turn i destroyed a sword of fire/ice, makig him bounce batterkull and i sacrified the third token to flashback a terapy for batterskull! He then topdecked vindicate :( but you got the message.

Natural order is so good:

... finally we have a wish target against monored! :)
... it's another (expensive) outlet to sac veteran if we need it!
... it's almost a tutor for all the creature in our deck (for example witness for a countered wish/scapeshift)

I think it's a nice idea and it deserves to be tested.

I cut carpets (making worst the canadian mu, i know, but read later) for other REB... i don't want to lose by UW decks and to deal with them you have to answer to sensei, counterbalance and jace... to stop counterbalance the better solution is pithing needle (it works vs jace too) but it stops our sensei's too and it dies to explosives and pernicious... so i chose to kill counterbalance and jace, meanwhile protecting myself from angels with deed. I can also play scapeshift with more confidence.

6 REB effects are so good vs canadian, they cannot stifle our veteran ability and cannot submerge us...
6 REB effects helps us to slow down a combo opponent and try to win somehow (scapeshift!??!)

wow, a long post :)

Thanks for reading to this point :)

-I would like to know what do you think about my recent updates
-I would like to know how would you sideboard against UW (miracletop and stoneblade)

[Qweerios]

I finished 4th at a local tournament today with my BUG Fit list featuring Sphinx of Uthuun and no Gifts. It went as follows:

1-1-1 vs. DnT
1-2 vs. Merfolk
2-1 vs. Sea Stompy
2-0 vs. Lands.dec

The results aren't very impressive but I was paired up and a lot of the players had draws because of the abnormaly high density of Lands/control players.

What is interesting to note here is that I should have lost to the DnT players if time was not called. There is always 2-3 DnT players and I steadily crush them. I blame the lack of removal and the abysmal CMC of the Fierce Empath/Titan/Sphinx package.

With the advent of Decay and Vraska, I intend to take Nic Fit in a FoW-less BUG Control direction. I think Decay will take Pulse's spot in many versions mainly because it is cheaper, instant speed, uncounterable, and accomplishes everything Pulse already does except destroy Batterskull, Elspeth, and reanimated fatties really... Here is what I am currently testing:


Creatures (10)
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

Spells (26)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Brainstorm
2 Abrupt Decay

4 Pernicious Deed
2 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Vraska the Unseen

Lands (24)
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island

Sideboard (15)
4 Negate
4 Thoughtseize
2 Extirpate
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Engineered Plague
1 Selkie Hedge-Mage

[Megadeus]

Maelstrom Pulse > Abrupt Decay. One card tilts in Pulses favor. Jace. He is the single worst thin for us. We need an efficient way to kill him and pulse does that

[Arianrhod]

@TheArchitect -- Of course you will. Dan's unfortunately under the delusion that there's an SCG open in Providence on the 22nd, so he scheduled Mythic against my local....aka I won't be there =( Hopefully next month...

So...thoughts....needs moar Rector. 2 Rectors in a Rector build can't be right. It's one of the best cards in the deck!

Grave Titan is fine since you don't have a Moat, but once you find one of those, I'd recommend making it a Yosei. Kokusho's very far on the back-burner now...Yosei is definitely the dragon of choice.

The Starved Rusalka has grumblegrumblecomplaincomplain been actually good for me, so I'd recommend you check it out as well. I've won a couple games now by being able to GSZ=1, my opponent scratches their head and lets it resolve, then suddenly Rusalka, hold priority, sac Rector, blowout.

If possible availability wise, I'd definitely recommend dropping the 4th Verdant for the 2nd Savannah. The extra white source really helps with Baneslayers, Sigarda, Humility, and Leyline (and Moat eventually). There's too many double-whites for 1x Savannah. I know JC just won a set at Jupiter, so you should be able to borrow one from him.

As for sideboard....don't worry about Chains. Chains is a fine choice if you're running Enlightened Tutor, but you aren't. Your storm-hate enchantment of choice should eventually be Nether Void. It stops them completely dead. Most storm decks (non-high tide) run literally like 11 or 12 lands in their entire deck. Void just kolds them.

I don't like Stony Silence -- it's one of those cards that's much better with Enlightened Tutor, and it doesn't actually hurt MUD. They can still punch you in the face big with robots. Try Serenity instead. Or Aura Shards if you really want to make Timur want to punch you. Sun Titan synergizes very nicely with Serenity, though.

Otherwise your board seems fine.

Now, for your specific questions:

Moat is definitely something you're going to need to get eventually. It's one of the major draws of the Rector version in the current metagame IMO, with Tribal (trying) to make a serious comeback. It's also solid against Maverick, because the evolution of Maverick has been largely away from Moat and Mindcensor. They can still Qasali it, obviously, but it will buy you at least a few turns to get more set up / to find & crack a Deed.

I've tried both Elesh and Angel -- the big problem that they share is that they're both 7-drops. Angel was fine in the board when Show and Tell was big, since you could Empath for it and just sit on it, but I wouldn't recommend it now. Elesh is the nuts against Maverick, but, 7-mana is a lot. Yosei is a better option for the other bomb, because time walking someone is perfectly acceptable, and if you can get it online with Nightmare, the game is over in quick and brutal fashion...much better than Nightmare+Angel, which will eventually get there, but very slowly. The round clock is sometimes more of an enemy than our opponent is, so having a decisive way to win the game is as important as ever.

Ooze has been fine in the board for me. It really is a good card, I just don't like it maindeck like literally everyone else in the world. It comes in vs RUG, Maverick, and any random graveyard deck. The 4th Deed is very important for your list, since you don't have Moat (which IMO fulfills much of the same purpose as the 4th Deed). The Duresses could be other options. If you had the availability, I'd recommend making them the Nether Void + a Harmonic Sliver, which has been quite good vs Miracles when they board in O-Rings. It also comes in vs Stoneforge Maverick vs Sword of Light and Shadow, which can be a serious problem. I don't board it in THAT often, but when I do, it's important to have access to it. If you don't have access to Nether Void, which seems fairly likely, you can use Curse of Exhaustion as a sort of pseudo-Void. It's nowhere near as good, but it'll still slow combo down, and you need to have a go-to storm hate option for Rector IMO.

Intent is the shit. This has been confirmed by last night.

Tribe-Elders have been really good for me. They can prevent lifegain from Batterskull (block, before dmg sac), they're an alternative ramp source which can increase the number of hands you can keep, they sac themselves which makes Recurring Nightmare much better in the early game (aka actually useful), and they don't ramp your opponent. They're also extra warm bodies for Therapy, which can be important sometimes. I do sometimes miss having the extra removal, but most of the decks that we want the spot removal against run Mother of Runes anyway, which makes spot removal bad. More sweep seems better...or in my case, more acceleration to endgame. RUG can't answer a Baneslayer profitably, ever, and if they somehow kill it with double Bolt or some such, they won't have anything for the next major threat. I'd rather be a little more pro-active, personally. Bob decks are whatever, because you just get Arena and sit on it. You have every bit as much card advantage as they do, but yours hurts less, and the cards you're drawing off of it are better. Revoker is the only real serious problem that I wish I had spot to deal with, but, again, the problem with Revoker is that he's always protected. Maverick and DnT have Moms, MUD has Chalice@1, etc. Swords is nice and all, but most of the time we can't use it anyway. I have been missing my Maelstrom Pulse, though, so that might well come back in, replacing the 2nd Elspeth. I wanted that slot to be the 4th Green Sun, but I'm not sure currently which is more important.

As for sideboard ...

MUD is a really annoying deck to board against. I'd take out the 1cc removal ASAP, because between Greaves and Chalice, it's just never going to happen. You aren't U/W control that can Force the Chalice and then Swords the metalworker. If you need more slots, pull a Daze with your Explorers -- leave them in on the play, take out 3 of them on the draw. That will leave you with one to GSZ for, but your hand won't be clogged with shit you can't cast.

I'd only bring in the Ooze and the 4th Deed vs goblins, probably cutting the Arena and the Innocent Blood. You need your blockers, they're just going to sac a token, etc. Arena's still a good card in the matchup because it can help you keep up with Ringleader, but it's going to get Deeded away constantly due to the relative high CMC of the goblin deck, and the 1/turn lifeloss can add up.

Hope that helps.

@EpicLevel -- look back a few pages for Bruizar's Intuition build if you want to go down that road. He's already figured out a list for that. A lot of us don't prefer it, but if that's where you want to be, then he's your man.

@PollePot -- I don't always sideboard out the 6s, but I do sometimes. It depends on the matchup...something faster like RUG, they come out for Carpets and I lean harder on my 5-drops. Something like Maverick, though, where I need all of the power I can get, I usually leave them in. Think of the 6-drop package as your game one breaker. They're gonna come in, crack some skulls, and win you a lot of game ones. Then boarding them out to lower your curve overall and bring in more responses to your opponent is perfectly fine. Not every matchup, but it's a normal thing to do it a lot. Like, Recurring Nightmare is almost never in my deck for game two, depending on how much I abused it game one. I expect people to have hate for Nightmare, so I just take it out. Then if I don't see hate, I bring it back in. That doesn't mean that I should cut Nightmare -- it means that it's actually one of the best cards in my deck. Like Sun Titan/Yosei...they're some of the most powerful cards in the deck. But that doesn't mean that they need to be there every game two. They serve an important function game one, and that's fine.

Armageddon is ass, and that guy is a douche for playing it. That's a really unusual build of Maverick, and it does not sound fun to play against. I'd recommend Wish->Cranial naming Armageddon ASAP. Then you can Scapeshift off at your leisure later on. Have you been running my updated Scapewish list, with the Bonfires in place of the Pulses maindeck? That would help the goblins matchup, I think.

@Cire_dk -- Firemind pretty much nailed it. The idea behind Empath is that you can Green Sun for your non-green 6-drops that way. Empath for Sun Titan, sac Empath to whatever, then Sun Titan bringing back Empath for Yosei is a savage beating that a lot of decks just crumple under. I'll grant you that Empath is a little underwhelming, and I do hope that one day we get a "better" Empath. Mwonvuli Beast-Tracker was really, really close. All it needed to say was "Flying" instead of "Reach," and I would have been allllllllll over that. So, hopefully one day. For now, though, I think it's still important.

@Gigioz -- Wood Elves is definitely better than Sakura-Tribe in Scapewish. Also, we talked about Natural Order some number of pages back, but I never actually tried it. How's it been for you, specifically, how often do you cast it and on what turn? Are you happy with Terastadon as your target, as compared to something else....Gaea's Revenge, perhaps, or Pelakka Wurm?

@Qweerios -- I'm definitely looking into that direction for my BUG list as well. It does seem like the place to be in the future. I haven't drafted a list yet, though...I'll have to do that sometime soon and compare notes.

-------------------------

Last night at my lgs, Nic Fit took 1st and 2nd :P I loaned out Scapewish to a good friend of mine, and played Rector. He got first because Scapewish is next to impossible to beat in the mirror, but I still took second so whatever. My matchups were DnT, Scapewish, Gamekeeper (fucking Emrakul), and Enchantress (fucking Emrakul). I was still raging the whole night about Emrakul from Saturday, but apparently higher powers agreed with me, because I saw 0 Emrakuls hit play all night, despite playing against two decks with the bastard in them. In fact, my deck seemed very angry against both of the Ermakul decks....Gamekeeper flooded out g1, then got quickly Cranial'd in g2. Poor enchantress got Deeded like 6 times game one, then g2 I Sliver'd his Sigil, Cranial'd his Replenishes, then Memoricide'd his Emrakul, leaving him with no win conditions left in his entire deck. Not having any of that bullshit, lol.

My friend playing Scapewish got paired up against RUG, me, DnT, and Combo Elves. He 4-0, 8-0'd, and he wasn't even playing it correctly the whole time. Deck is a monster. From what I saw of him playing, Bonfire was doing some pretty absurd work for him, aside from the deck just doing its thing.

That's all I've got for now =)

[Goaswerfraiejen]

I missed most of the discussion about the BUG versions of the deck going back to page 95 because I was too busy to contribute much to The Source these last couple months. That's too bad, because a number of the decks suggested are incredibly similar to past incarnations of UGB River Rock, my NO BUG list. I'm in the process of updating the primer to reflect the changes the deck has undergone in the last few months (and bringing it up to speed with Abrupt Decay), and should be done sometime in the next few days.

In any case, I just popped in to suggest that if anyone is still interested in developing the BUG version, it may be worth your (our) time to team up and combine our efforts. I've already done a great deal of testing with many of the cards and shells that you're suggesting, albeit in a different metagame, and all that info is pretty clearly organized and linked to across primers (with the corresponding discussions in the pages that follow in the thread). Likewise, your perspective--especially with the current metagame--could be useful in informing what I consider to be the deck's natural evolution (viz., into a NO BUG deck). I've always had the problem of insufficient testers for different ideas, and it looks like you've all been doing much of that work independently anyway.

[Claymore]

Good informative post!

I probably missed the Yosei discussions, but here are my thoughts on this:

Yosei is a better option for the other bomb, because time walking someone is perfectly acceptable, and if you can get it online with Nightmare, the game is over in quick and brutal fashion...much better than Nightmare+Angel, which will eventually get there, but very slowly. The round clock is sometimes more of an enemy than our opponent is, so having a decisive way to win the game is as important as ever.

I've been trying to replace Kokuso and my main testing trends right now are Angel, Yosei, and green fatties like Protean Hulk (need to try out Terastodon). As fun as Hulk can be, I'm keeping away from green in general because of Mother of Runes, since most of our board will be green and those Knights can kill us very quickly with a monocolored boardstate. I'm keeping below 8cc because the deck just can't get up that high quickly when you need that fatty to drop.

I think Yosei is definitely powerful with a little bit of set up, but in my testing the collateral damage of the increasingly popular Karakas (demand pushed the price up to $90 from about $50 a few months ago) is a huge liability. Aside from odd decks that have Karakas for vs SnT (Enchantress), DnT and Mav both can easily have Karakas on the board and this leaves Yosei a dead card in hand if you don't have an immediate sac outlet. I've been running the Yosei/Angel split card for now in testing against Maverick and haven't had a chance to really settle the score between the two, but generally have preferred Angel whenever I drew or wanted to fetch for either card. Additional sac outlets like Rusalka and Intent might help out Yosei though...

The game-ending Nightmare cycling with either doesn't really need to be all that intensive, as generally there aren't all that many permanents at that point that can stop us from winning.

--

With the inclusion of Rusalka and Intent, have you given thought to replacing Steve with Viridian Emissary? The 2/1 isn't too bad if you find yourself on the early aggro plan (helped kill a Jace in my last finals) and they both are a wash when you're on the defensive. However, for me the bigger concern is having to choose between a T2 Therapy and T2 ramp. Intent might get helped out more here too. I might roll with a 1/1 split and see how that feels, but when you're putting in more sac outlets it seems that an Emissary would synergize more with the deck overall.

I do see the joy in denying a Batterskull activation or two (and Jitte), but I think we can deal with high life totals just fine in the end.

--

With the question of 4th GSZ vs Maelstrom, I'd go with Maelstrom. The slightly extra consistency to get that Explorer is nice, but going from 1 to 2 removal spells gives the deck more control tools to draw and gives you a better chance of having one in the yard to recur with Witness, which flat out wins games. Can't tell you how many times I've been happy to top deck a Pulse against fresh KotR.

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For vs Valakut, Teeg can stop the opposing GSZ and Scapeshift. Rector fetching a Leyline of Sanctity in response to Scapeshift can blank the spell for a turn, or nullify that win condition completely by fetching for the Leyline in response to all of the triggers.

[Zirath]

I don't like Stony Silence -- it's one of those cards that's much better with Enlightened Tutor, and it doesn't actually hurt MUD. They can still punch you in the face big with robots. Try Serenity instead. Or Aura Shards if you really want to make Timur want to punch you. Sun Titan synergizes very nicely with Serenity, though.

I don't think any of those cards beat Karn.

Though I agree with Kevin. Stony is probably the weakest hate you could pick. Serenity is the safest but Aura Shards would be very spicy and you might make Asher unhappy about it as well with your one sided Tranquilities.

[Giggioz]

@Gigioz -- Wood Elves is definitely better than Sakura-Tribe in Scapewish. Also, we talked about Natural Order some number of pages back, but I never actually tried it. How's it been for you, specifically, how often do you cast it and on what turn? Are you happy with Terastadon as your target, as compared to something else....Gaea's Revenge, perhaps, or Pelakka Wurm?

Natural order is a last addition i played it only in 1 small tournament, i think it has a very good potential and i'll keep testing it.
Terastodon saved my life in 1 game, destroying sword of fire and ice, targeting skull (bouced) and 1 land of mine...i flashback terapy on the token for skull and smiled :)
he topdecked vindicate and i lost :/
In another game jace saw terastodon with fateseal and put it on the bottom in one second... :)

Gaea's Revenge has some value and it's really good vs jace, and cheaper than terastodon...but it does nothing if the opponents goes for a terminus or has chumblockers. I think we should see both cards in the different matuchups to understand wich one is better...

i think i'll test it, thanks!

[Megadeus]

If you have Gaeas Revenge I think you may as well play Prime Time. He has trample, and can bring in Treetop Villages to kill off Jace along with Towers if that is more your thing. Either way he is probably just Bette than Gaeas Revenge.

[TheArchitect]

@Arianrhod: Thank you for the advice. Sorry you wont be able to make it.

Ugh, I really dont like Starved Rusalka lol. Ill try it out for myself first but blargh.

Ill give 3 rectors a try. I luckily have 3 already now that they are like 25$. Ha, got a foil one a few days before they spiked at only 30$ :p

Your right about the Moat and the savannah. They next on my to buy list.

Ill test out tribe elders in my removal slots. I like your idea of a more proactive approach, "dont worry about the turn 1 delver/lacky, just a get a deed and baneslayer out faster". Thats what this deck should be doing. Not trading 1cc spells for 1cc creatures.

If I scout out a lot of S&T Ill play Angel of Despair, otherwise grave titan seems good.

Thanks for the SB advice, your right about stony silence sucking. Serenity or Aura shards seems like a good choices, they beat random enchantress decks too. I wouldnt have thought of treating vets like dazes against chalice decks. Thats a great point.

Also, im pumped to try demonic intent. Love that card in EDH!

[Qweerios]

@Megadeus,

I disagree with you that Pulse is essential for Jace. I believe there are only 4 ways to efficiently handle a Jace, the first 2 being the best ones:

1. Play Jace before your opponent
2. Counter Jace
3. Beat on Jace
4. Destroy Jace via 2-for-1s (AKA: Angel of Despair, Vraska, Terrastodon, etc.)

I definitely think that BUG versions will benefit more from uncounterable, instant, UG removal than Pulse. Decay handles Islandwalk lords, Delvers, Counterbalance, Mangara/Karakas, and much more. I don't know about other Nic Fit players, but I pretty much scoop to T1 Mom, T2 Revoker without instant removal, and it is only a matter of time before Maverick players realize how good Revoker is. Replacing Pulse with Decay in BUG improves what is difficult to handle with the deck while taking away very little of what it is already good at.

@Giggioz,

Yeah I fail to see how Gaea's Revenge is any better than Prime Titan or Kodama.

[Megadeus]

This is where it hurts that we have so many different styles. I see your reasoning for not having pulse in BUG but in non blue versions we have no way to play or counter Jace. Maybe in a blue version Decay is better, but in non blue, pulse is probably still better as Planeswalkers are still pretty good against us.

Edit: I saw you mentioned Vraska. I still think Pulse > Vraska. Vraska in BUG maybe, but not in any other version.

[Arianrhod]

This is where it hurts that we have so many different styles. I see your reasoning for not having pulse in BUG but in non blue versions we have no way to play or counter Jace. Maybe in a blue version Decay is better, but in non blue, pulse is probably still better as Planeswalkers are still pretty good against us.

Edit: I saw you mentioned Vraska. I still think Pulse > Vraska. Vraska in BUG maybe, but not in any other version.

He's talking about a BUG version, lol. That's what I think about Vraska, too, by the way.

@Qweerios -- you missed one, by the way - arguably the best way to deal with him of all: Therapy him out before they have a chance to play him.

Also, will the uncounterable clause on Decay actually get around Mother of Runes? Since her ability would make an illegal target, the spell would be "countered," I'm just not sure which way it would go as far as the rulings are concerned. I want to say that Mom won't stop Decay, which would be amazing.

@Gaea's Revenge -- I think that it's worse than Primeval Titan 90% of the time, but I also think that it's better than Terastadon, especially where NO is concerned. Protection from nongreen spells and abilities is huge, and it's much bigger than Kodama (and haste). I'm not saying that I'd run at all, but I think that if we're talking about NO, Revenge needs to at least be mentioned.

Worldspine Wurm, obv. #trollface

@TheArchitect -- Oh, believe me, I hated everything about Starved Rusalka. I originally refused to play it on principle. Then I tried it, and in goldfishing it was amazing. Nic Fit is hard as hell to goldfish, but I could see enough to know that being able to GSZ for a sac outlet for an onboard Rector, Explorer, or Yosei is a -big- deal.

Rectors are 30 now =( Still shocked by that. Glad my three are foil, but now it's going to be literally impossible to find jap foil ones. Goddamnit.

You've got the right of it RE removal spells. It comes down to efficiency vs power. All non-blue versions are going to always prefer power instead of efficiency. The more powerful effect is just better, because we don't have the rampant card advantage to just 1-for-1 our opponents to death. The whole deck is literally built around 2, 3, and 4-for-1s. That's our "card advantage." Once we start going 1-for-1, we're playing their game, not our game. IMO non-blue versions in particular should focus more on ramping to the power, rather than hoping to draw 1-for-1 removal to survive until the power. It's a subtle difference, but it makes a pretty serious impact.

BUG is a little different, of course, since it actually gets to draw cards without needing to lean on Phyrexian Arena. It can afford some more efficient, less powerful answers as a result.

Good luck! I'll be expecting a report when you return =)

@Claymore -- My thoughts on Karakas are a definitive "Eh." If it's a big deal, we can just Vindicate or Fetters it. Usually, though, Yosei will be getting sacced immediately without passing priority, and once Yosei dies once, Karakas won't be untapping again. Yosei's also the only card that Karakas does anything to -- our only other legend is Sigarda, and she gives exactly none of the fucks.

I have considered Emissary, and he does play better with Therapy and friends, I'll grant. However, it comes back to the age-old discussion of card purpose. STE isn't in the deck to act as a body to sacrifice to stuff. He's there to ramp 1st, and sac 2nd. Emissary is there to sac 1st, and ramp 2nd, because he HAS to be paired with a sac outlet in order to ramp, which, if you have a sac outlet, you don't need Emissary or STE anyway, because you're going off with Explorer. I'd rather my "backup ramp dude" is able to actually ramp on his own without needing an outlet, personally, because that's his purpose. Now, if you had loaded up on sac outlets (multiple Intents, Culling the Weak, etc), then it's a different story -- then you want him primarily as a sacrificial lamb and secondarily as a ramp source. It all comes down to the purpose that you have in mind for the card....how you conceptualize that slot in your deck.

I'm very strongly leaning towards putting the Pulse back in. It'll need a little testing, obviously, but Pulse has historically been good for me, and it's something that is an easy board-out in a lot of matchups, which is nice.

Teeg is horrible vs Scapewish, because the deck is designed to deal with it. It has Deeds and BW->Virtue's Ruin (or Pulse) to get around that -- or it can just slow-roll Valakut enough to be able to kill Teeg with an activation and then Scapeshift off from there.

Leyline of Sanctity is much better, but it's still not great because it'll just get Deeded or Pulsed away before it's relevant. Also, the way I run Scapewish, the deck is more than capable of beating you down with dudes while keeping the board clear with Valakut...using your lands as infinite spot removal. A lot of people are taking it more "combo" focused with more discard and less creatures, but I think that's worse personally. The idea behind Scapewish is that it's a Nic Fit deck first, and a combo deck second. The combo blends seamlessly into the overall gameplan of the deck...it's not a "Valakut deck." It's a Nic Fit deck that uses a Valakut core. It all goes back to that question of conceptualization and intent. A good Scapewish deck isn't going to care about Leyline much, because it's just going to play around it. Instant-speed Rectoring in Leyline is a little bit different of a story, but I don't know how dumb the Scapewish pilot would have to be to walk into that =/