[Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)

[eq.firemind]

Just throwing idea (sorry if this was discussed earlier, this thread grows too fast =)): how about Leyline of the Void + Helm of Obedience in Nic Fit with Diabolic Intent to tutor it?

Fastest kill:
Turn 0: Leyline
Turn 1: land, Exploer
Turn 2: land, Phyrexian Tower, sac Explorer, Helm, activate Helm

You can keep it BG or splash into any 3rd color, excessive copies can be fed to Liliana of the Veil or fixed by Brainstorm and Jace (u splash) and Top (which you play anyway).

Leyline itself shits on Reanimator, Dredge and recursion cards (like Life from the Loam or Academy Ruins), helps versus Past in Flames and keeps Knight of the Reliquary in check.
On the bad side, it does almost nothing versus Miracles and Stoneblade... So, what do you think?

[litenkatt]

@eq.firemind

Here is a list that won a tournament with the leyline/helm combo: http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/36498

[Cire_dk]

With a FLOOD LOAD of u/w miracles and esper blade in my meta, I have swapped off 1 stomping ground off Arianhod's list to a Boseiju, Who Shelters All and it is my primary tutor target for primeval titan

I like the idea but because it comes into play tapped it will be very susceptable to wasteland. As far as I understood the extra stomping ground gives you a better chance to resolve scapeshift succesfully.

@ Kanti I also like the other options like persecute and overmaster but it is difficult to find space. The third huntmaster has been good for me. I have the feeling that otherwise I do not see it often enough. Although I love abrubt decay I am not sure if it is better than Huntmaster MB. SB would be nice but what could I cut?

[Cybey]

@Arianrhod: I don't remember seeing any info on why the Bonfires were added and how they performed. Could you elaborate a bit?

I was wondering about this as well actually. I've been toying around with your ScapeWish list, but the Bonfires tend to get stuck in my hand.
I do however agree that they can be amazing sweepers.

[Arianrhod]

@Bonfire -- There's definitely the risk of awkward keeps where they end up stuck in your hand. However, if you keep any hand that does not have a Bonfire in it, your deck is immediately better. The purpose of the Bonfires:

-) Replaced Maelstrom Pulse. What does Pulse do? Kills a dude or a planeswalker, rarely kills an Enchantment or Artifact. Bonfire kills all dudes, still kills a planeswalker, and can dome somebody for lethal if you've already been trucking along (or gets them within easy Valakut range)

-) Improves the Tribal matchups, especially Elves. Merfolk is largely a joke, but Goblins and Elves can both be very serious threats. Bonfire serves to smooth these matchups out a bit.

-) Counters Entreat the Angels. They EoT Entreat, you EoT give them a Bonfire. Done, sorted.

-) Improves your aggro plan. I touched this earlier, but let's put it this way. Say you have a Thragtusk and a Huntmaster+token. You have like 12 mana, which is not uncommon in a ramp deck that has no fetchlands. You rip Bonfire, nuke your opponent for 11, and then swing with the team against his now non-existent field for lethal, in one-shot. This is the extreme example, but Bonfire improves your aggro plan by acting, essentially, as an Overrun. It's one-sided Wrath at absolute worst.

Bonfire has been unequivocally amazing for me. There are sometimes the awkward situations where they end up in hand, but again: ramp deck that runs 0 fetchlands. You can just hard-cast the damn things if you have to. Like, 6R is perfectly acceptable to Bolt them and everything they have in play. Not "the nut," but still fine.

@Kanti -- I like Overmaster as a card, but I don't think it's necessary, really. I tend to adopt a Honey Badger mentality with Nic Fit in general, but Scapewish in particular. They have a cuonterspell? Okay. Do they have another one? Or another one? How about now? Nic Fit, and especially Scapewish, is SO threat dense that blue decks literally can't keep up well enough. You have too many must-counters, and you run Witness on top of that, with 4 GSZ on top of THAT. You countered my Scapeshift? Okay, how about when I recast it next turn? Or when I cast this Primeval Titan and threaten to Valakut you that way. Or when I Burning Wish for god-only-knows-what. Tsunami. Boom.

And so on. Plus, you have Therapy, which you can usually have one laying around to Flashback before you Scapeshift. Furthermore, even though the Thoughtseizes are meant to be boarded in, don't forget that you can Burning Wish for them, as well, which serves almost the same function as Overmaster. If your blue opponent makes it to the point where you want to Scapeshift and they have -that- many counters in hand still, they deserve it. And if they do, they don't have a clock, which means you'll just keep trying until they eventually succumb to the relentless assault of threats.

[Eatatjoes]

Has anyone tried out new frontiers or collective voyage as a 1 or a 2 of in the scapewish builds? Also, is there any possible way to fit a few fetchlands into the scapewish list? Sensei's tops have been super mediocre with so few shuffle effects.

[Qweerios]

While playtesting with Rector Fit I came to the following conclusions:

-Sigarda is the most solid win-con I have ever played with in Nic Fit hands down;

-Teeg is the lock piece that this deck needs to make so many unfavorable matchups into even-to-favorable ones;

-Sakura-Tribe Elder is weak. Flashing it back to Therapy is a poor play and Rampant Growth doesn't meet Legacy's standards. I wouldn't play more than 1, and that's already a stretch... I would rather play more Thoughtseize/disruption that would allow me to ramp and shore up my worst matchups than to passively force ramp;

-Armada Wurm is fine for now but there is still room for improvement on the 6CMC end;

-Recurring Nightmare is still underwhelming. Having the card more readily availlable still doesn't make it any better than it is. It requires something worthwhile to recurr, something worth sacrificing, and absolutely no reponses from your opponent. I don't want to draw this card unless I am already winning. Recurring Nightmare is too situational and a textbook definition of a win-more card (unless you combo and win straight up). Whenever I abused it, I felt like I was playing High Tide after the first Time Spiral...

With that said, whatever happened to Debtors' Knell? It seems bomby enough for a Rector target, it has a low enough CMC to be realisticaly cast in games where it is relevant, and it has awesome synergy with Phyrexian Tower, Thragtusk, Witness, Armada Wurm, Innocent Blood and Deed.

Here is my current list:


Creatures (13)
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
2 Academy Rector
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Armada Wurm

Spells (25)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Innocent Blood
2 Vindicate

3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Faith's Fetters
1 Debtors' Knell

Lands (22)
2 Phyrexian Tower
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains

Sideboard (15)
3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Rest in Peace
1 Humility
1 Nether Void
1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Harmonic Sliver
2 Thoughtseize
2 Extirpate
2 Swords to Plowshares


I am thinking that perhaps Pulse or Decay might be better than StP in the SB.

[fireiced]

I like the idea but because it comes into play tapped it will be very susceptable to wasteland. As far as I understood the extra stomping ground gives you a better chance to resolve scapeshift succesfully.

I dunt meet/see miracles playing wasteland in my meta actually other than the odd dust bowl

[Claymore]

Qweerios,

The list you have is obscenely close to my current Moat-less Rector fit, literally the only difference being removal spell choices, Debtors Knell, and your extra discard in place of some additional ramp. I think its like a 5 card difference. A few notes on my tournaments from Friday and Saturday:
-Teeg is definitely good. Ran him mainboard a few months ago and never looked back. A must have for game 1 of Countertop and similar decks, combo, and otherwise an x1 speed bump against aggro.
-It needs a backup ramp engine. This was the Sakura for Arianhod. I myself was running Viridian Emissary so that you could still get value out of Tower or Cabals. I liked it but felt bad playing it in legacy, so right now I am running x2 Deathrite Shaman in place of those emissaries, since a late shaman is much better than late elf. He also has utility of anti-KotR and otherwise okay gravehate such he can replace Ooze in your mainboard.
-The deck is light on sweepers and board control. I ran x3 Deed and x2 Pulse and found myself needing additional removal when I realized mav-style aggro matchups were my weakness. I would run Pulse over Vindicate/STP, especially with Knell. There are no permanents we are afraid of to run a 1 for 1 removal like Vindicate that Pulse wouldnt handle. Ive also added x2 Abrupt Decay and have enjoyed it okay.
-You're correct, it needs more hand control. I found x6 to be a good median, enough to be relevant early and not too much to be drawing discard when you're facing down a freshly top decked KotR. x8 might be good too, idk
-Rusalka is a necessary evil, sadly. There are many games where i would have lost without that tutorable sac outlet. Otherwise you only have what, 6-8 effects to kill your Rector or explorer. Keep in mind it plays very very well with Knell and gives you an instant speed sac outlet as a hedge against STP.
-I like debtors knell. This creature-light version of Rector can't sustain Recurring Nightmare which I also begrudgingly accepted to be a win more card, and Knell is definitely a great bomb since it grabs opponent's business. Gives you great value to fetch in aggro matchups when your board is clear, basically the Phyrexian Arena for aggro. Will test soon.
-Armada Wurm is about the best card now for the 6cc beatdown slot, unless you want Primeval Titan. I put him in over Grave Titan and begrudgingly liked it.
-I've seen game situations where baneslayer would be good, but the deck is somewhat tight.

[litenkatt]

@Qweerios

I've noticed that you're not running diabolic intent. Why? It does everything u want to in this deck.. and now its even better with the debrtors' knell.(really interesting card btw, gotta try it out! Could work against reanimator!).

Don't like Recurring Nightmare niether. It's crazy good if you get the yosei lock with it but that will only happen against fair decks and you win against them anyways so..

[Qweerios]

@Litenkatt,

I don't play Diabolic Intent because the spell has a detrimental additional cost. Without Rector, Intent is a 1 for 2, and if your opponent grabs as many lands as you from Explorer, you've just lost on the card trade (not always on board state but that's another story).

@Claymore,

Would you mind explaining how the deck needs a backup ramp engine? What is wrong with 1 land drop per turn if you have more disruption? I firmly believe that actively stalling the board via disruption is much more potent than passively accelerating your manabase. If you have trouble making your land drops, I suggest playing more lands instead of basic land ramp. Sakura is fine as a 1-of because it virtually increases your land count from 22 to 27 by giving you the option of transforming a GSZ into a CiPT basic at the cost of 3 mana. I think it is worst than a Wall of Blossom in that case to be honest.

I don't think I want to replace Ooze with Deathrite any time soon for Nic Fit (and I play with Deathrites a lot lately too). Anything below 4 CMC shouldn't be a serious consideration to advance your board state in Nic Fit because of Deed, unless the card has a serious immediate impact on the matchup at hand (AKA: Ooze and Teeg). Deathrite is also sub-par GY hate when GY hate is what you need, it has summoning sickness and cannot exile more than 1 card. Having multiples still doesn't make it a replacement for Ooze.

It is true that the deck is more concentrated on threats than sweepers compared to other Nic Fit lists but I disagree that it is "sweeper light". If anything, it has more virtual access to sweepers and plays more "side removal" than the BUG Fit lists I have played before. I've played with 4 Deeds only for aggro matchups before and my aggro plan was very strong. However, those Nic Fit decks had better stalling tactics and recursion.

I chose Vindicate over Pulse because I didn't want to pack an Acidic Slime and wanted an out to troublesome Lands such as Lab, Ruins, Bowl, Volrath, Manlands etc... The "multiples" clause on Pulse has always been a corner case for me. It's a plus, but it's not something I need to bank on most of the time while having the ability to get rid of lands is.

I am still on the fence concerning Rusalka. One of the big weaknesses of Nic Fit is all the built-in card disadvantage brought about by sacrificing cards for uncertainties like Explorer and Therapy. The only sac outlets I want to consider are the ones that:

1) can be used independantly of another card, and
2) outset inherent card disadvantage when combined

For these reasons I would play more cards like Innocent Blood before considering something like Rusalka. To make this clear, I think that when it comes to the point where you have to play Rusalka to get value out of Rector, it's time to cut Rector from your deck (unless of course you can just win on the spot with that interaction).

[Cire_dk]

I dunt meet/see miracles playing wasteland in my meta actually other than the odd dust bowl

I agree but there are a lot of other match ups where you have no extra use for it. Stomping ground can be wasted as well but it provides the extra mpountain to scapeshift. But I still like the idea and will try it out so thanks for your suggestion.

[fireiced]

I agree but there are a lot of other match ups where you have no extra use for it. Stomping ground can be wasted as well but it provides the extra mpountain to scapeshift. But I still like the idea and will try it out so thanks for your suggestion.

Besides, against decks where they decide to waste you to oblivion [RUG and Maverick] you already shit on RUG and maverick has to contend with GSZ for hunts and thragtusks + that Wish->Virtue's Ruin or Scapshift win

If boseiju gets wasted then it is 1 less wasteland to harass u when u got for scapeshift win.

Thou I must stress that you do not play the boseiju when U-decks are not a large percentage of the meta, me meta loves their Jace MS and FoWs with U-based decks making at least 65% of the meta

[litenkatt]

Rule of Law

Isn't this card better or just as good as Nether Void?

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Against Storm and High Tide, yes. But Nether Void also gives other combo decks a speed bump, namely Show and Tell and Reanimator, which only needs one spell to resolve to give you hell.

[TheArchitect]

Against Storm and High Tide, yes.

I disagree, Nethervoid completely shuts those decks down. They need to get 4 lands out till they can even start cantriping for an out. Curse of exhaustion/rule of law, only slow them down slightly. They can still cantrip/tutor on each players turn and then just bounce your enchantment usually after 1-2 turns of searching. With Rule of Law out, High tide will just EoT cunning wish (with as little as 3 islands) for bounce and and then bounce on their turn and win. With nether void out, they need 6 lands to even cast cunning wish, and then it will still cost 4 to bounce on their turn, so you still have at least one more turn if they are on the time spiral plan (as apposed to reset).

Nethervoid also helps against omniscience and dredge even, while rule of law just means they can only dread return one thing, or play one giant legendary creature.

Rule of law, or even better curse of exhaustion, is never really better than nether void.

[Claymore]

It needs a backup engine because the majority of your removal is all over 3cc, especially Deed, your important spells are all high CC, the deck runs 22 lands (not land a turn quantity) and you simply can't rely on drawing Explorers and GSZ for all of your accel. You need consistency. I've run this variety of the deck for many months and it loses most often if you can not advance your board due to mana constraints, especially in the face of aggro. It runs much better for me with 10 accel cards compared to 8...I'm just trying to figure out what 9 and 10 are. The go-to accel is almost always Explorer, but the extra consistency of having accel in your opening hand makes the deck run smoother. Same reason you're running more discard.

I am def in favor of the additional proactive disruption, but find its easier to claw the deck out of bad spots when I am more capable of getting mana accel and fixing.

Even with an explorer, the deck absolutely needs to be able to kill it. Rusalka gives the deck x5 enablers to that end. The iconic Explorer/Therapy or Tower combo as you've found is not enough. I go back and forth over Bloods or Fleshbag Marauder, but the sweet spot to me has been being able to fetch out a sac engine. I may still try putting in Blood again since it is a good card, but for now I've chosen to use its slots towards more powerful removal. Maybe swap for my x2 Decay, or run split removal...hmm...

Overall, the card Rusalka itself is not strong, but serves as the best tutorable ignition key to this deck.

As far as Vindicate vs Pulse, I've never found a land to do anything to me that the rest of the deck can't handle, whereas you can get killed by Walkers or KotR before getting the fatty plan online.

Agree on Shaman. My opinion of Ooze is that it's meh mainboard (great sideboard) since the deck can handle most any grave strategy, but Shaman theoretically gets gravehate (snipe Loams) and mana accel/fixing to the mainboard in a single utility creature. Still needs testing, however. It can die to Deed, yes, but largely it serves to push out Deed or removal to slow down the opponent, at which time you probably drew Explorer and you just roll out. Or at least thats my plan.

This version of the deck can be very powerful but needs to be built with extra consistency measures to be legitimate over the course of a tournament.

[kabards]

This was my tournament report for November 10, 2012. I think 40-50+ attendees 6 Rounds battling out for a playset of Jace, the Mindsculptor a piece of Savannah, Scavenging Ooze etc.
This was the list i used.

Punishing Nic-Fit

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thragtusk
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Broodmate Dragon
1 Grave Titan

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun Zenith
3 Punishing Fire
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Garruk Relentless

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Bayou
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Mountain
1 Badlands
1 Taiga

Sideboard :

3 Carpet of Flowers
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
2 Extirpate
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Emental Blast
1 Slaughter Games
1 Nether Void <-- just experimenting, i cut off my 1pc Slaughter Games for this

====================================================================

Round 1 - P. Nic-Fit vs BGW Rock with Deathrite Shaman [ 2-0 ]

Game 1 - Got an early Veteran Explorer, 2nd turn Huntmaster of the Fells. All creatures he play was always remove by my spells [ Abrupt Decay, Recurring Punishing Fire ]
Game 2 - Got to control his creatures early, because i don't have Veteran Explorer opening hand. Sensei's Divining Top wins the game together with Broodmate Dragon.

No Sideboard for this deck.

Round 2 - P. Nic-Fit vs UR Delver [ 2-0 ]
Game 1 - I got a 2 Green Zenith's in opening hand, 1 Veteran Explorer, 1 Abrupt, a 2 Fetch Land and a Duals that i can't remember. Got an early Veteran Explorer but countered in my 1st turn, he plays 1st turn Goblin Guide. 2nd turn able to resolve a Green Sun's Zenith for 1 getting my another Veteran Explorer. During my opponents 2nd turn he just casted a Chain Lightning. 3rd Turn i got a top deck Phyrexian Tower and cast my 2nd Zenith for 5 getting Thragtusk and the rest was history, when i got a top deck Zenith i just go for a gain life dude.

[ Side Out ] : 2 Maelstrom Pulse, 2 Liliana of the Veil, 2 Pernicious Deed, 1 Grave Titan <--- to slow for my opponent. [ Side In ] : 3 Carpet of Flowers, 2 Pyroblast, 1 Red Elemental Blast, 1 Nether Void <--- i just trying this if i can draw this card lol.

Round 3 - P. Nic-Fit vs RUG Delver [ 1-1-1 ] Draw
Game 1 - I just remember that i control the board and big dude like Thragtusk + Broodmate wins the game.
Game 2 - Loss via beat down Delver, Tarmogoyf and Nimble Mongoose. My only removal was Punishing Fire and Pernicious Deed that was countered.
Game 3 - A very long game, i just defend all through out then when i already established the board last 5 turn called out. As i've remembered i already have a Broodmate Dragon in play.

[ Side Out ] : 2 Maelstrom Pulse, 2 Liliana of the Veil, 1 Grave Titan, 1 Garruk Relentless. [ Side In ] : 3 Carpet of Flowers, 2 Pyroblast, 1 Red Elemental Blast.

Round 4 - P. Nic-Fit vs Death and Taxes [ 0 - 2 ] Loss
Game 1 - Mulligan for 4 and i lost.
Game 2 - Mulligan for 5 a bad draw. and got slowed by Rishadan Port.

No sideboard.

Round 5 - P. Nic-Fit vs UW Miracles [ 0 - 2 ] Loss. I just give the win and talked about that if he will go to top8 i we would split his prize, but still we test to play.
Game 1 - Early Mulligan for 5. Loss the game via early Entreat the Angels.
Game 2 - Win early beat down 2nd Turn Huntmaster backed by a Pyroblast. Zenith my Kitchen Finks and the rest was history.
Game 3 - Win if our game was continued last 5 turn call, an early Carpet of Flowers, hit an early Pernicious Deed but in this game i got a bunch of misplays like i already have Abrupt Decay in hand i didn't destroy his Counterbalance in play early knowing that he already had a Sensei's Divining Top in play, that's why my Huntmaster was countered by Jace the Mindsculptor on top of his deck but still i played my Huntmaster again putting it to the top of my deck using Volrath's Stronghold. lol

[ Side Out ] : 3 Cabal Therapy, 3 Punishing Fire, 3 Veteran Explorer, 1 Grave Titan. [ Side In ] 3 Hymn To Tourach, 3 Carpet of Flowers, 2 Pyroblast, 1 Red Elemental Blast, 1 Slaughter Games.

Round 6 - P. Nic-Fit vs RUG Delver [ 2 - 0 ] Win
Game 1 - Early Veteran Explorer and a 2nd Turn Thragtusk wins the game controlled the board all through out.
Game 2 - Early Veteran Explorer a 2nd turn Carpet of Flowers, that's why i got an early Thragtusk + Broodmate Dragon in play. controlled the board again.

[ Side Out ] : 2 Maelstrom Pulse, 2 Liliana of the Veil, 1 Grave Titan, 1 Garruk Relentless. [ Side In ] : 3 Carpet of Flowers, 2 Pyroblast, 1 Red Elemental Blast.

============================
Thanks for reading my short tournament report. Sorry for my english because im not that fluent just hoping for you all to understand haha!

[eq.firemind]

What do you guys think about Sadistic Sacrament as a sideboard card versus UWx control and probably Combo to some extent?

Miracles tend to not run more than 3 Entreats, they sometimes run 3 Jaces and in lategame Sacrament for 15 cards leaves them without a way to win.
Blade Control will be happy to know that Mystics are useless, some rare decks like Land or Enchantress can be left without recursion engines or win conditions.
Modern Show and Tell decks should also suffer from early Sacrament 'cause you can take out all Emmys or all Grisels so it will be harder to find a fatty and you will know exactely what to expect. Or you can take 3 SnT so they'd need more mana to actualy do something.

The cost can be a problem, especially for versions of Nic Fit (they run non- lands to support PFire or Angry Mountains plan).

[Cire_dk]

What do you guys think about Sadistic Sacrament as a sideboard card versus UWx control and probably Combo to some extent?

Miracles tend to not run more than 3 Entreats, they sometimes run 3 Jaces and in lategame Sacrament for 15 cards leaves them without a way to win.
Blade Control will be happy to know that Mystics are useless, some rare decks like Land or Enchantress can be left without recursion engines or win conditions.
Modern Show and Tell decks should also suffer from early Sacrament 'cause you can take out all Emmys or all Grisels so it will be harder to find a fatty and you will know exactely what to expect. Or you can take 3 SnT so they'd need more mana to actualy do something.

The cost can be a problem, especially for versions of Nic Fit (they run non- lands to support PFire or Angry Mountains plan).

I think you already give the main reason for not playing this card yourself. 3B is just to much strain on the manabase. I would rather spend 4 mana on a slaughter games that cannot be countered. As you pointed out we want to take only a few important cards to disrupt their engine. Slaughter games makes a very good job of that. In fact imo this card is so good it is worth playing red just because of it.

@Kabards: Thanks for pm and your report. Your English is very good so no worries about it.