@Plow Under: I wouldn't call 5-Mana spells "disruption". So yeah, you would draw a different 4-5 Mana spell there.
@Arian: Gratz. The Archangel has a lot of potential.
For the revising:
- the Rector package seems a bit off without any Rectors
- maybe play more Archangels? The cards seems almost good enough on its own and it has decent synergy with the deck. I think I would just go with the full playset and cut Yosei and Primeval Bounty.
random ideas:
- could a Rector/Moat thing with Archangel and Lingering Souls work? Like I said I am a pretty big fan of Lingering Souls. Souls and Archangel are both good cards on their own, they both fly over Moat and if Archangel puts counters on Tokens, that is nice too.
- Chord of Calling could also be an option for creature based combo decks. It competes with Living Wish. You have quite a lot of stuff laying around so the mana isn't too bad and the Instant speed is really amazing. It also improves the SB.
Wow, I didn't even see the combo until you spelled it out. That is.. so Johnny I love it. Perhaps this is the direction GWB Fit needs to go? Solid Aggro with a surprise inherent combo. Is the one-of Diabolic Intent for solely Angel fetching?Originally Posted by Arianrhod
What does Nevermore do for you?
Did Recurring Nightmare do enough work during this tournament?
Sick list, I want it.
On this page was our initial discussion about the M14 cards:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...rol%29/page234
Baneslayer is a solid card and I think that the combo potential is better than the difference in their battle stats. So yeah, Archangel might be a thing. Also @Arian, I love the addition of Sylvan Safekeeper.
For further brainstorming in the mana base a 1/1 split between High Market and Phyrexian Tower might be good. High Market + Archangel sounds like fun.
Isn't the point of this deck to ramp ahead of our opponents so we can cast our more powerful spells? We should be getting to five lands on turn three regularly. On the play, that puts your opponent at two lands. Plow Under is effective against tempo because it gives them exactly what they don't want, land draws. They're not seeing any new cards, they're not out going to out tempo you because they're not getting the spells they need.
If we are dead against TES before we get to five mana, we didn't disrupt them enough to begin with and we were unlikely to win regardless of the spell. The fact that they don't run basics is great for our ramp strategy and doesn't do anything about Plow Under. The only lands you don't try hitting with Plow Under are ones that sac themselves.
Plow Under is disruption. It stunts your opponent's game. It isn't a Time Warp, but forcing your opponent to draw two lands they've already played over two turns is devastating.
I love your zeal for Plow Under. It makes me want to reconsider it, because people don't usually like cards if they underperform. Testing should decide its worth, not rhetoric. If you say it works for you I have no reason to not believe you.
Do you recall any specific matchups where it boosted you ahead when you should not have been able to?
My opponent was playing Esperblade and one land away from dropping Jace. I had been able to rip his hand earlier with Therapy and Thoughtseize but he managed to draw him afterwards. I Plow, he draws and plays his land. I GSZ a Witness grabbing Plow Under. He draws and plays his land again. I Plow Under once again. My draws at this point have been Deed and Decay, not too helpful. I had Sigarda in hand and needed another white source to play her. He continues to replay his lands. I finally draw my white source and play Sigarda. My next draw was Stronghold, when I showed him I could loop Plow Under a couple of times by Decaying and Deeding my Witness and then drawing it with Stronghold he showed me the Jace he was holding. His next two draws if I never Plowed were a counterspell and the land he needed to cast Jace.
Obviously, this is an almost ideal situation, but it's far from magical Christmasland. I also had two dead draws, or at least what appeared to be dead draws until Stronghold showed up. The idea behind Plow Under isn't that you are denying them mana, it's that you are denying them new cards while you continue to build on your ability to win.
I am pleased with how it has worked for me. I'll continue to test it out; maybe it isn't the right direction to go. I can tell you that after reading people buy into Panoptic Mirror and Deadeye Navigator, and now Archangel of Thune, it's hard to believe that Plow Under isn't given more of a chance.
By the way Christmasland is turn one Explorer, turn two Tower sacrificing Explorer into an unchecked Plow Under. Turn three play Stronghold and Witness grabbing Plow Under. Loop until your opponent dies to Witness attacking every other turn or your opponent getting frustrated that he hasn't played anything worthwhile in the first two turns that will win him the game.
I am done arguing about Plow Under. If you want to play it I can't stop you.
Lingering Souls is amazing. My approach to Thunian Fit would be this:
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Forest
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 High Market
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Archangel of Thune
3 Spike Feeder
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Eternal Witness
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lingering Souls
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
SB: 4 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
I think I like the High Market idea, although lowering by one Tower also reduces the explosive starts, which -can- matter since this version doesn't have the density of ramp creatures that Scapewish has.
I'm not sure that cutting Living Wish is correct, though. Having the g1 access to hate cards can allow you to steal wins vs combo by hitting them before they're prepared to deal with the bears, being able to wish for extra copies of combo pieces is pretty good, not having to worry about something getting surgicaled, etc.
Regarding the Rector bullets without Rectors....I dunno. Primeval Bounty is capable of winning games entirely on its own. With Bounty online, dead draws no longer happen, which is something that -can- otherwise plague Nic Fit. Lategame Explorers represent a 1/1 + a 3/3, +6 possible life. Lategame Therapies give a creature +6/+6 permanently. Etc. Nightmare is obviously still Nightmare. It still does the broken. My thought process was that mid-game, one should be able to Top into them, and then they are each capable of taking over the game. Plus, with Diabolic Intent, you can always tutor for them if you actually need them for something. Note that I never actually tutored for one of the non-Deed enchantments, though.
Varolz was the actual nut high. Multiple games, I was scavenging things onto Sigarda or scavenging Explorers onto Kitchen Finks to reset their persist. I did not expect to be scavenging nearly as much as I ended up actually doing, and the mechanic definitely overperformed. Diabolic Intent was also quite excellent. I also missed Thragtusk quite a bit, and he'll definitely be going back in. I kind of figured that with all the lifegain already in the deck that Thragtusk wouldn't really be necessary, but he ended up being something I missed.
No you can't stop me from play testing it; no more than I could convince you that the Archangel deck is fun but too campy to be a legitimate deck.
Speaking of campy I've shuffled my list around.
Creatures:11
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Wilt-Leaf Liege
1 Genesis
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Armada Wurm
Artifacts:3
3 Sensei's Divining Top
Sorceries:15
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Thoughtseize
4 Lingering Souls
Instants:3
3 Abrupt Decay
Enchantments:3
3 Pernicious Deed
Others:3
3 Liliana of the Veil
Lands:22
3 Bayou
4 Forest
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Windswept Heath
I'm still running Plow Under, but replaced them for this list to gather more constructive criticism than ire over a small portion.
Talk of Lingering Souls and adding more Liliana made me look at what changes I wanted to make to my first list. While it had some explosive plays it lacked consistency. Most of my wins came while I was behind. And most of the time I lacked sufficient pressure to keep my opponent on his toes.
I haven't had a whole lot of testing, but so far it's been great. Genesis came to mind when I started to think of ways to make Liliana's discard uneven. The first thing that popped into my mind was Madness decks from way back. In the end I decided against Arrogant Wurm and the rest of the madness lineup.
Tweaks I'm already thinking about are dropping the Deeds. It's been quite a balancing act with all of the tokens this list produces. In their place I'm looking at either spot removal or Garruk. I'm thinking of a two-one split between PH and Relentless. I really like Relentless as pseudo removal, token generator, and sac outlet... But he's prone to get bolted and there are plenty of those around. If I went with that split I'd take out the tops and put in spot removal.
Thoughts?
When I saw Archangel of Thune and Academy Rector, Birthing Pod immideately appears in my mind.
The card is not quite powerful in Legacy's standarts, but widespread abuse of Abrupt Decay makes it more reliable now.
Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way.
I don't even know you, and you already went out of your way to offend me. The Archangel deck is MINE, Tao just gave some thoughts on it. But now that you've sucked me into your little Plow Under war, come back and talk to me when you have some results. A couple top 8s will suffice. You gave your idea, it was dismissed. The burden of proof is on you, now.
Cutting Pernicious Deed? You cant be serious. Its one of the most insane cards in the deck. Ecxplorer ramp into deed into wincon is wha the deck is about. Removing the deed from the deck makes me wonderif you really know what nicfit is about.
But then again... Who am I to disallow you to make such a drastic change.
I assure you no offense was intended and I certainly didn't go out of my way to incite such a response. I'm aware that the Archangel deck is your current baby. I still don't think the deck will hold out very well. Like your Panoptic Mirror and Navigator builds, which I read about thoroughly when doing my due diligence on this archetype, I think it is a flashy exciting deck that will likely catch opponents by surprise, but will likely never end up being a deck to beat in Legacy.
As far as your top 8 comment, I congratulate you on yours. I was hoping for one of your more thorough recaps. I enjoy reading game interactions as I can glean quite a bit of information from them. I'm still in deck construction and play testing, hence my posting two deck lists recently. I certainly could use some more constructive criticism there. When I take the deck to a tournament I'll certainly give a recap of my own, top 8 or otherwise. I'll be man enough to admit if Plow Under isn't as good as my play testing has led me to believe. I just ask that if I don't make top 8, people don't readily assume they were right about my card selection.
I'm entirely serious. I wouldn't consider removing it if I didn't have a reason. In this case, it's because this version of the deck leans quite a bit on Lingering Souls. Unless I've landed another serious threat, popping Deed takes out a very strong portion of the deck. It becomes a very interesting balancing game on whether or not I can race my opponent, force him to over commit, or make an even trade by blowing up the board.
Deed is a powerful card, and one of my favorites since the original Rock deck, but I don't think it belongs in token heavy build like the one I presented. I might not fully "know what Nic Fit is about," but I do know Deed is anti-synergistic with tokens.
Fair. You also had the unfortunate luck to catch me in a really bad mood today, so I probably took your comments as being more personal than they were perhaps intended.
I will note, though, that the failures of the Mirror builds in particular are one reason why I'm less "fuck yeah, brew" than I used to be. I acknowledge the possibility of failure, and my usual course of action these days is to suggest a possible build, then test it and run it in a few events before actually saying "yay" or "nay" regarding it.
Deadeye was a failure not because the deck didn't work -- it did -- but because it didn't do anything new. There's a big distinction there. It did work, it just didn't work for what I wanted it to work for (vs combo decks), which is why I scrapped it.
At the core, Thunian Fit is an update to Rector. Rector had a lot of fans in here, and I think that Thunian is the spiritual successor to Rector. Giving it an actual infinite combo is what the deck needed, and it also turns the Scapewish matchup into a crapshoot. It's whoever combos first -- and that's fine with me. I could never come up with a reason to run any other Nic Fit over Scapewish because none of the other versions were actually capable of beating Scape. That isn't true anymore.
And as for a deck to beat / tier 1 deck -- Nic Fit will never be a DTB/T1 deck. I've explained this several times in the past. We can get pretty near to the top of t2, but we're pretty close to incapable of broaching into t1.
- For Panoptic Mirror I do think it has the necessary potential. The interaction with Time Warp is powerful enough to be a possibility, at 5 mana it is not too expensive and most decks can't kill it. About Deadeye I think the same as about Plow Under, they are bad cards and I don't think either has any chance of ever becoming good.
- Archangel of Thune is imo better than all these cards. Not sure if it is good enough because it is vulnerable to Swords to Plowshares and because Spike Feeder isn't a premium creature but overall I think Angel has a lot of potential.
- I agree with xdeckx on Deed. We have all been there and all came back to running at least 3 Deeds. It just cleans up so much random shit.
@Monogreen: May I ask WHY you insist on making White your third color? And why you insist on "White but no Rector"? I don't quite understand it so far. Last list had Sigarda and two 6-drops, this list has Sigarda and Lingering Souls. Like I said your builds are good and synergetic in general but I feel that you limit yourself with forcing yourself to play White instead of exploring (no pun intended) other options.
I don't know in which world the Nic Fit mirror is the deciding factor for choosing your deck.
Rector was the list I was most excited about. When I read how poorly it was positioned I immediately went to a Rock version I'd be comfortable playing.
The main reason I don't think Archangel will work is its easily disrupted. Spike Feeder can be targeted and killed via widely played Lightning Bolt and Abrupt Decay after the first counter is removed. Kitchen Finks can be removed via Deathrite Shaman once persist triggers. Be both creature based and needed at least two turns to set up are what make me think it will not work out in the long run.
On being a deck to beat, never is a long time. Who knows what the future brings. Theros has an enchantment sub-theme, maybe Rector lists will be brought back into power.
Super stoked about Thunian Fit, going to probably get the cards soon and put together a list for testing! Living Wish being able to get a host of super relevant lands such as: Tower of the Magistrate, Maze of Ith, Karakas, Bojuka Bog, Wasteland, Phyrexian Tower, and others--along with hitting creatures like Angel of Despair and any combo piece / maybe even some choice creatures like Thrun, the Last Troll or Sun Titan out of the board.
Sounds kinda awesome.
Cutting Pernicious Deed is actually way more reasonable than you think. It isn't actually a necessary part of the deck. It is a decision we default to because it is so versatile and is such a reliable catch all. Deed is simultaneously the most useful and most useless card in Nic Fit.
Cutting Deed is not reasonable. The right number for any version is somewhere between 3 and 4. It is a great card that does exactly what the deck wants to do.
I do like the thune/ feeder idea a bit. (I am working on that in modern with pod).
I still can't get away from rector, however. I had tried the junk walkers for a while but meh on it.
So have seriously considered Armada Wurm as the green 6 drop yet?
Also, anyone going to be scg mpls in a few weeks?
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
