Could you post your current list? I think that latest changes confused me a bit, cause you talked about cutting witnesses while you hadn't any in the decklist above ;)
That would be because I apparently forgot to type them out. Oops.
Current list:
2x Baneslayer Angel
2x Sun Titan
1x Kokusho, the Evening Star
1x Yosei, the Morning Star
4x Lotus Cobra
4x Veteran Explorer
2x Eternal Witness
3x Pernicious Deed
3x Gifts Ungiven
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2x Promise of Power
3x Diabolic Intent
4x Cabal Therapy
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Scrubland
1x Bayou
1x Savannah
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Marsh Flats
2x Windswept Heath
1x Island
3x Forest
2x Swamp
2x Plains
I'm afraid you're slowly drifting into danger of cool things land there. So many finishers? Really? I'd rather run a few more cards which allow to survive the early game. We already have a pretty good lategame.
Although you guys seem to have moved on to a Gifts-version, I still wanted to share some thoughts on Tao's last list. Unfortunately, I could not do real testing on MWS, but there are some things that struck me nonetheless. Generally speaking, I was satisfied with the deck overall.
First of all, although blind Therapies weren't that useful due to the more casual nature of my MWS games, I feel that you really need them as sac outlets. Its also a great weapon against the continuously growing popularity of Stoneforge Mystic amongst other things, so I am really against cutting them.
Furthermore, I always had the feeling that the deck went a bit too slow which was because even with Top in play and continous fetching, I was not able to find the win cons. Although it that point I was mostly in control of the games, I would wish for a faster way to win, as to not give the opponent time to recover. I would therefore advocate the inclusion of the previously mentioned Diabolic Intent to up the count of win cons.
About the "Hymn-problem": Why not play Leyline of Sanctity from the Sideboard? The additional discard and removal should give you enough tools to combat enchantment hate in any form.
All in all, I would propose the following changes to the MD:
+2 Diabolic Intent
+1 Grave Titan
-1 Thrun, the Last Troll
-1 Recurring Nightmare
-1 Pernicious Deed
Again, these observations are only from limited MWS play and I will keep toying around with it.
For the pure Control shell (Witnesses, Deeds, no Cobra):
Gifts Ungiven is a great addition to the Control build. It can just make a pile of 4 strong cards which are good in the current situation which I do about half the time. The other times it sets up synergies like Cabal Therapy and finds our inevitability with Recurring Nightmare.
I don't like Diabolic Intent because a tutor is meant to add consistency to the deck but unfortunately the card itself is inconsistent. Gifts is always good and often enoug broken.
Another strong card that blue gives us is Jace TMS. He is ridiculous but that is commonly known.
I tried a 4-color-build for a while just to include Swords to Plowshares but ultimately I dismembered White and now I use bad black Removal instead. White has just nothing useful to offer except for StoP if you play this type of deck.
For the problem that Combo decks bring in leyline of Sanctity against us the best solution I have (that is not only useful in 1 matchup) is Nature's Claim. It destroys Leyline quick enough and the lifegain is 99% irrelevant.
@phillip/in general -- with the shifting goal of the deck into more of a traditional gifts rock/rec sur concept, I think I'm going to try switching out Baneslayer and Promise of Power. Into what, I'm not quite sure yet -- I'm thinking that I'm going to put Knight of the Reliquary back in. I may leave one Baneslayer as a tutor target, because she definitely can just win games on her own that you have no business winning otherwise.
If I can find room in the mana base (which, without Promise of Power, Urborg can finally come out), I'm going to try to work in a Dryad Arbor and potentially a Khalni Garden as a Knight-able token generator for when you need to Intent.
A friend of mine suggested Vengevine for this deck, but I don't think that is a good idea. I'll toss it out there for peer review, as it were, but I just don't see it. VV plays nice with sac outlets, I'll grant, but I think I'd rather have a maindeck Thrun or two, as opposed to VV.
@Tao: I'm glad you're taking up the Gifts mantle. I'm not sure if cutting white entirely is a good idea, since then you also lose access to Sun Titan, as well as Enlightened Tutor packages out of the sideboard (still working on this idea). Explorer makes splashing a color so incredibly easy...I'm not sure that there is a downside. At the same time, basing BUG lets you use Jace, which, as you pointed out, is amazing. At the same time, I'm not sure at what point we just turn into a deviate BUGstill if you go down that road.
So, here is my current list. I am quite satisfied with it. Brainstorm adds much consistency and Jace and Gifts are nuts. The 4-drop slot is quite full but Thrun constantly kept on overperforming so I have 2 of him in the main currently split with 2 Gifts and 2 Jace. Because you don't need to draw 2 of any of them this works out quite well.
About the big threats. Three seems like the best number. Karn is awesome and always wins and the opponent can't do anything. Meloku is like really good and I won't cut him but I am not sure between Wurmcoil and Grave Titan. Both work well with Nightmare and end things fast but Titan is much harder to deal with while Wurmcoil is a way to get out of Aggro reach. Playing both would be too much.
Normal Gifts piles involve Regrowth and Eternal Witness so it becomes a double Demonic Tutor. Cabal Therapy and Recurring Nightmare are not included as often as Witness and Regrowth but still a good amount. Jace TMS and Maelstrom Pulse are very often included.
Often it just doesn't matter what you get because anything would win but sometimes choosing the right cards becomes tricky.
Against Blue decks you have to use Therapy on Brainstorm first even if they don't respond. Often you can tell from their reaction if they have it because they think about responding with it. If you can't tell what they have just name Brainstorm because it is a safe 4-off and it would destroy your Flashback if they have it.
BUG Jacestill has four relevant card against you in their 75 and that are the 4 Jace TMS. If the table is empty don't break Standstill with less than 7 spells in hand and break it at the end of their turn.
Throw everything you have at their Jace. Sometimes they will establish Jace nonetheless and you lose but usually you can keep it off the table with Pulses, Therapies, Thruns, your own Jaces and Witnesses. G2 it gets better because of the Extra Discard and the third Pulse, side out Deeds and Blood. They board Vendillion so leave in the one Dismember. They are good but not enough to kill you, it is still all about Jace.
Vs. Merfolk you try to kill their Lords and they try to Protect them / draw more than you can handle. That is basically it. Side in Extra Removal.
Vs. Stoneforge Aggro Decks the matchup is quite good. They usually can't do anything with the Explorer Mana if you have Explorer and Deed works wonders against them. Stoneforgestill is not much different from BUG Jacestill, it is mostly about Jace. They have Stoneforges to annoy and their Removal exiles but they also have a bit less protection and 1 less Jace.
// Lands
3 [B] Forest
1 [US] Phyrexian Tower
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
2 [B] Bayou
2 [B] Swamp
2 [B] Tropical Island
1 [B] Underground Sea
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [B] Island
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
// Creatures
4 [WL] Veteran Explorer
4 [FD] Eternal Witness
4 [SH] Wall of Blossoms
2 [MBS] Thrun, the Last Troll
1 [CHK] Meloku the Clouded Mirror
1 [M11] Grave Titan
// Spells
4 [5E] Brainstorm
2 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
1 [NPH] Dismember
1 [OD] Innocent Blood
2 [CHK] Gifts Ungiven
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 [NPH] Karn Liberated
1 [EX] Recurring Nightmare
1 [B] Regrowth
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 2 [LRW] Shriekmaw
SB: 4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 1 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
SB: 2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 2 [WWK] Nature's Claim
SB: 1 [JU] Cabal Therapy
It looks great on paper! My opinion is based only looking at your list, I haven't even tested it. Don't you have an extemely high curve? It seems like it has too many 4 and higher costs, if you don't resolve veteran explorer (mental misstep is everywhere) it is a bit dificult to reach the 4-6 lands. But I like the 4 witness, 4 blossoms for defense/card advantage. Also, I think wurmcoil belongs to this deck, and meloku doesn't. What are here uses? If you make tokens, it seems like a bad deal with pernicius deed backup.
Another thing I don't get, basically because I have never played with him, is Karn. What is the strategy you need to follow to win with the opponent can't do anything? I supose it involves a chain of two +4 activations to some threats in your hand and then restart the game with those in play, I don't see anything extra.
@soiber -- In my testing, I'm finding that people won't misstep the Explorer. They'll save it for something that they perceive to be a bigger threat. Granted, some of the people I've been testing against a -lot- will counter the Explorer now because they know what it does, but that still allows Therapies and Swords to go through unabated (or Brainstorms in the case of Tao's list). My primary testing partner has started Swordsing the Explorer so I don't get the trigger -- the problem that he runs into then, though, is that he doesn't have the removal later on for my bigger threats. In an Explorer-less game, you instead lean on your removal. Keep the board clear of their threats and play the control role instead of the beatdown. Eventually, in a war of topdecks, this deck -will- win. The threats it plays are just vastly beyond what most other decks in the format are capable of. You're dropping Titans while they drop Goyfs. It just doesn't compare.
@Tao -- As with Soiber, this is based off of my own experiences with my version, and not explicit playtesting with your list.
-) You need Volrath's Stronghold somewhere in there. Stronghold as a backup Sun Titan/Eternal Witness is disgusting. It's a nonbasic singleton that doesn't always show up, but when it does, it does some serious work. Even if you only get one activation out of it before a wasteland, it's very useful.
-) I would suggest adding a singleton Fleshbag Marauder somewhere. I've diversified my list a bit and refocused on the Gifts package, dropping Promise of Power and a few other things to do so. This guy has been the best find so far. I got Stronghold + Fleshy online in two separate testing games and just won. It's a sac outlet for Explorer, and removal all at the same time. Being Sun Titan-able and Stronghold-able is just gravy.
-) What are the Nature's Claims for in the sideboard? Metalworker/equipment?
-) Your mana base. I don't know how it's been working out for you, but 10 fetches seems like an awful lot given the deckthinning of Explorer. With only three duals, you're going to be drawing blank fetches a lot in the late game, I would think. Obviously they're good still with Brainstorm and Jacestorm just for the shuffle, but I think I would tone that back even just a little.
-) Going along with that and the Stronghold, I would add a 2nd Phyrexian Tower. It's legendary, and it sucks when you get the second one when you already have the first out, but it's akin to playing multiple Gaea's Cradles in the same deck. It adds such horrendous explosiveness to the archetype that I think it is probably worth having two.
-) I'm not sure about only having 3 Therapies main. Therapy is an amazing weapon that is also one of our few ways to interact with combo game one. Against B/W discard and Team Italia, I've found that Therapy is the single best card in my deck -- at the same time that they're stripping my hand of threats, I can be doing the same to them...which eventually leads to a late topdeck war that I almost always win. The fact that it is also a sac outlet for Explorer and enables Witness recursion is also a plus.
-) I agree with Soiber regarding Meloku. It's a hell of a bomb, I'll grant, but I don't think it's the right bomb for the archetype. We don't have Aintrazi's Explorations to go batshit with it. At the point at which this deck makes a truckload of mana anyway, have you thought about trying Sheoldred, the Whispering One? It's removal and reanimates dead Witnesses/Walls. Just some food for thought -- or perhaps if you want a 5-drop for curve issues you could consider Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon or even Kokusho for value at the 6 spot. Kokusho + Rec isn't as nuts as Yosei, perhaps, but it'll still get the job done.
Just some food for thought. I'll post my updated list later on -- it's doing some interesting things at this point. I'm not sure if they're all good or not...in a way, I think that my deck took a step back in refinement from a few lists ago because I'm trying new things. I think that the end point will be better, though.
- Mana base / number of high CC cards / reliance on Explorer: It plays 5 Duals (not 3) so I didn't have a problem with dead fetches so far. With 7 basics, a Phyrexian Tower and 3 colors I think 10 Fetchlands are needed to get the right Mana reliably. Nine cards that cost four or more Mana are a lot but that's what the deck does. It does not rely on Explorer though. It has Removal to stall and Wall of Blossoms, Brainstorms and Witnesses (for Fetch) to find the nessecary lands if you don't have Explorer. Because of that it is also not a catastrophe if they stop Explorer from doing his job.
Using Explorer is very relevant. Don't automatically run it out on turn for example. By waiting for Therapy/Tower you get around Swords without a problem.
- Karn on an empty board usually means you win. He draws one card a turn and then loses it. If he keeps it in hand or if it is irrelevant you use +4, if he plays it and it is relevant you use -3. Usually there is no need to use it on yourself or to restart a game. Because why would you want to restart a game with Iso Scepter/Vindicate in play? One of the reasons to restart would be fear of dying to burnspells.
- If I would run another colorless land (Stronghold, Wasteland) I would run 23 lands. One Life from the Loam would probably also be included then. Atm I don't think it is needed.
- I use Innocent Blood atm. Without Stronghold it is better than Marauder.
- Nature's Claim are imo better than Grip because they can kill Leyline of Sanctity in time. They are also better against Painter decks and Affinity.
- You are right, the 4th Therapy belongs in the main. Will cut something.
- Meloku just always performed well when I had him. Blocks fliers, blocks Sworded guys, blocks multiple creatures, wins fast.
Alright folks, here's the latest main and sideboard for my more combo-oriented version.
1x Baneslayer Angel
1x Fleshbag Marauder
2x Academy Rector
2x Sun Titan
1x Yosei, the Morning Star
3x Lotus Cobra
4x Veteran Explorer
2x Eternal Witness
3x Pernicious Deed
1x Recurring Nightmare
1x Debtor's Knell
3x Gifts Ungiven
3x Swords to Plowshares
1x Path to Exile
2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1x Innocent Blood
2x Diabolic Intent
4x Cabal Therapy
2x Phyrexian Tower
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Tropical Island
1x Scrubland
2x Bayou
1x Savannah
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath
1x Island
3x Forest
2x Swamp
2x Plains
1x Karakas
//Sideboard
3x Natural Order
1x Progenitus
3x Enlightened Tutor
1x Chains of Mephistopheles
1x Choke
1x City of Solitude
1x Circle of Protection: Red
1x Null Rod
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon
2x Innocent Blood
So...yeah. A lot of versions and a lot of work over the past week or so has gotten me to this point. I had no idea that Rector was legal in legacy, and that immediately got my wheels turning. Since my deck was already built with the idea of sacrificing a creature for value, Rector seems like it should be here somewhere. I know that I run a grave risk of getting too cute at the point at which Rector is introduced, so I kept myself to a strict one-bomb limit. For that purpose, I selected Debtor's Knell. It is synergistic with the rest of the deck in general (and Gifts specifically), and is almost insurmountable when it's online -- even bringing back a Witness every upkeep is brutal. And the Knell can bring back stuff that you've already blown up or discarded, which seems useful. Worst case, we can play the Knell from our hand fairly easily, and Rector can always grab a Deed or Nightmare, with additional options from the sideboard. I did consider Moat, but I like that I like Titan too much. I've built around him to an extent that using him just to bring back one permanent ever is a little lame. Still, I suppose that it IS worthy of consideration, especially for the more control oriented versions (Tao's list with white would love this...suddenly Meloku becomes superserious).
I've already touched on Fleshbag, but I'll mention him again here. You can bring him back with Titan, you can bring him back with Stronghold, and not many decks can handle that. Plus, he fuels our sacrifice theme. He's been a house in testing so far. Most of the other tweaks are value of life changes for Gifts. I diversified my removal to work better therein, and decided to keep the 3rd copy of Gifts in the deck.
Now, for the sideboard:
I'll preface this by stating that this section is mostly theoretical.
Natural Order is not. My primary testing partner is besotted with NO, and it took me dying a few times to his NO -- fueled by my own Explorer saccing, mind -- for me to realize that I should be doing that, too. It's rather frightening how much this deck already facilitates a NO package, and it turns some coin toss matchups into advantageous ones. Some of them, like Zoo, may board into Perish, I'm not sure -- I don't play Zoo, so I'm not sure if Explorer, Witness, and Cobra is enough for them to bring that in...I'm guessing not.
The Innocent Bloods are to have a little extra for the Show and Tell decks...fairly industry standard.
The E.T. package is a personal baby of mine. I love E.T. toolboxes, so whenever I'm working on a deck that could run it, I tend to be biased towards doing so. However, in my defense, I didn't really sell on the ET idea until I put Academy Rector in. ET can shore up some dreadful matchups with effective, crippling bullets. Control crumples under Chains, Choke, and City. Painter doesn't like to see Null Rod. Burn obviously can't deal with CoP:Red. Dredge and Reanimator don't like Wheel of Sun and Moon. This last is probably the weakest ET target present, honestly. I feel like Dredge is a decent matchup already, and Reanimator, I feel, you need to have dedicated hate for if you want to beat it. At the same time, Therapy is a little rough for them, and the combined black and white removal might cause issues. I'm not sure.
I would like two Thruns somewhere for an additional middle finger to control, but at the point at which either City or Choke is out, especially, I think that they are in dire straights -- at that point, our superior card quality should take over and run them out of the game.
Going forward, I'm going to be looking at the final remaining Baneslayer very closely. It may be that she should become a 3rd Sun Titan, or perhaps a Regrowth. It may be something else. I'm feeling like she's not necessary, though, as usually my "win the game" Gifts pile is Titan-Nightmare-Witness-Yosei.
Ideas and comments are appreciated, as always. This particular list is a bit more experimental than some of its predecessors, as mentioned earlier -- but I think that with some further tweaks and refining, this is going good places.
Could the new Garruk maybe see play here? It's basically Promise of Power if you have a fattie out and has value even if you just start spam the board with tokens or alternate between first and second ability. Casting cost seems supportable. I haven't tested with it yet, though.
I'm not sold on Gifts Ungiven. Not sure if it's really worth moving into 4 colors just for it and seems like you want to do too many cool things.
The list I'm going to give a shot is:
4x Birds of Paradise
3x Veteran Explorer
2x Eternal Witness
2x Qasali Pridemage
3x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Thrun, the last Troll
3x Sun Titan
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Pernicious Deed
3x Diabolic Intent
4x Cabal Therapy
2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Sylvan Library
4x Windswept Heath
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Savannah
2x Bayou
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Wasteland
3x Forest
3x Plains
1x Swamp
1x Horizon Canopy
SB
3xWrath of God
3x Innocent Blood
3x Extirpate
3x Thoughtseize
2x Krosan Grip
1x Bojuka Bog
The Innocent Blood could be Diabolic Edict. I also almost want to drop the Top for another Pridemage, in order to get some early beats on the table. Thoughts?
Last edited by Brushwagg; 07-03-2011 at 01:03 PM.
Quote Scrumdogg @ Amrod's:
"Didn't you know that Mike Glow invented this format?? We are all just renting it."
The EPIC Syndicate - Grindermen
Team Disquailified Poster Duey Cheatem & Howe.
The new Garruk seems legit. I always wanted more Planeswalkers but except for Jace they are all not good in this deck. Garruk 1 is not realiable enough. Beast production chews away at his loyalty and untapping is not always needed. Elspeth has also only one really useful ability. For decks like GW giving +3/+3 and flying is great to finish a game but this deck does not care overly much about how many turns it needs once the game is under control. The Elspeth ultimate is extremely rarely useful.Originally Posted by Philipp2293
Garruk 2 is like Elspeth except that he costs one more and has 2 less loyalty for the bonus that his creatures are three times bigger and that his second ability and ultimate are far more useful. For many decks the 5cc are daunting but in this it is not that important as long as you get enough value out of the one Mana. Getting a 3/3 instead of a 1/1 is obviously a huge difference. Drawing 3 me likes and putting 42-60 power is worth to be called ultimate.
I like Elspeth in this style of deck of 2 reasons. 1 it puts a dude on the table or makes them bigger. The deck has a couple of problems I've been running into.
1. Early board pressure. This problem is easy to solve. I've been thinking of adding another Pridemage, and might switch over Noble Heirarchs since they can swing. They don't produce Black but the deck really wants Green and White more.
2. Card draw. This is the problem I'm having trouble with. The canidates aren't that great. Harmonize costs 4 which doable but seems kind of ehh.. Same goes for Night's Whisper, and Sign in Blood. I would really love to squeeze in something like Ancestral Vision but that brings in the dreaded 4th color for just one card. Phyrexian Arena could be a possiblity also.
Quote Scrumdogg @ Amrod's:
"Didn't you know that Mike Glow invented this format?? We are all just renting it."
The EPIC Syndicate - Grindermen
Team Disquailified Poster Duey Cheatem & Howe.
So what happened to the Zeniths? The thread was named after them and I started reading backwards to catch up on what's been going on with this deck idea and the list's weren't using it.
I found Zenith wasn't really need in the deck. I use to play it but, the style I went for wanted to find Deed more then a green creature. If the style changed for to a Zenith Order board control type deck with Pulse instead of Deed then I think it should find a way in.
Quote Scrumdogg @ Amrod's:
"Didn't you know that Mike Glow invented this format?? We are all just renting it."
The EPIC Syndicate - Grindermen
Team Disquailified Poster Duey Cheatem & Howe.
Zenith in the thread name is awkward but when I made the thread I thought Zenith was an auto-include because of Cabal Therapy, Explorer and other Green creatures. But the deck somehow works better without Zenith for the reasons that Brushwagg named.
@Brushwagg:
1. That is the classical midrange problem. As soon as you add more early beats you will get dominated by Landstill the next game because you don't have enough gas.
2. The blue version solves that problem. Brainstorm, Jace and Gifts are that card draw (Brainstorm almost feels like draw). There is no playable card draw in other colors.
If you stay in GBW because of Swords and Sun Titan the first card you should try is the new Garruk. It is great with Thrun and you can potentially go nuts with KotR. And when there is no creature in play Garruk is still the card you want to play. Sometimes I evaluate new cards too high but atm I don't have any doubts that the new Garruk will be awesome in any version of this deck.
I've made 2 changes to my list after a few test games. -4 BOP +4 Heirarch and -1 Titan for +1 Pridemage.
This seems to work a little better with the early game. As far as card draw I'm not looking for Cantrips although Brainstorm is nice to have, but not worth weaken the mana base. I'm looking hard at Skeletal Scrying as well.
My Sb has changed as well. But this is for my local meta. Theres like 3-4 SFM and NO decks,and alot of Jace, a couple of Goblins and a Mefolk or two:
3x Wrath of God
2x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Thoughtseize
1x Bojuka Bog
2x Krosan Grip
2x Diabolic Edict
2x Aven Mindcensor
Quote Scrumdogg @ Amrod's:
"Didn't you know that Mike Glow invented this format?? We are all just renting it."
The EPIC Syndicate - Grindermen
Team Disquailified Poster Duey Cheatem & Howe.
What about Yavimaya Elder in this deck? I browsed magiccards.info for another Explorer-like card, and this is the only one out there (besides Viridian Emissary) and I like its overall synergy with the theme of this deck.
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