I tried switching out wall of blossoms for lotus cobra and all though cobra gives you a little ramp, sometimes, I would rather have had the extra card and the big butt.
I gave up on this deck because everytime I blew up an explorer, my playtesting partner would thank me and proceed to roll over me. I tried a Train-Wreck esque version with cabal coffers instead of explorers, but that was just bad.
I would love to pick this deck up again, but I am REALLY skiddish about giving my opponent extra lands.
Do you have to be choosy when you blow him up or do you do it whenever you have some things in your hand to cast?
The Zenith/Veteran Explorer split is a really good idea IMO. Not to sure about NO maindeck though. The problem with Lotus Cobra when I tried it was that it ate removal, a lot, and that it didn't do nearly enough vs fast decks.
@Hyperchord -- What were you testing against? There's only a few decks that actually use anywhere near as many basics as this deck does, and most of them are easily enough vanquished by the simple fact that we do more powerful things than they do. Granted, most decks can get some use out of the first explorer. But at the time at which the first explorer dies, there is probably a Therapy resolving off Flashback, taking the threat that they will want to use that mana for, or else you're going to be dropping a Garruk, Rector, Deed, or Gifts off of a Tower (or a Therapy, sometimes). It's a question of sheer power -- this deck has more of it than most, and with the disruption and acceleration to make it work. I'd be very interested to know what you were testing against.
^Ascension with planeswalkers and Dragon Stompy. I wasn't playing the gifts version though and it was before Garruk 2.0 was spoiled.
EDIT: We both misunderstood Explorers ability to get lands and fetched duals. I'm sure that didn't help me against Steel Stompy. I'll have to proxy up the new Garruk and sleeve the deck up again.
Last edited by hyperchord24; 08-02-2011 at 08:55 PM. Reason: I didn't rtfc.
Haha, yeah, if Explorer could get duals, that would make this deck a -lot- worse. Definitely give it a try armed with that knowledge.
I'm currently testing my list as per the last page, with the following changes: -2 Thoughtseize, -1 Glissa, -1 Ex. Cap, +1 Rector, +2 Tendrils of Despair (60 cards even). I'll be sure to post later with my results from that -- on paper, it looks like Tendrils could be amazing against the matchups that this deck traditionally has trouble with, but we'll see. I'm also switching out City of Solitude in my sideboard for a Runed Halo, and I'm going to try to find one more spot for a Sundial of the Infinite. I may just cut both of the Edict effects for the Sundial and the 4th Natural Order. We'll see. I did enjoy having a little more spot removal, especially removal that hits Show/Telled Emrakuls and NO/Progenitii, but with the changes I'm making, my answer suite may be good enough at this point that they're just unnecessary.
Did you never feel that you were too light on E. Witness? 2 seems a little low to me.
I was thinking about natural order, but could pattern of rebirth be better? It's a little easier on the mana base and gets you any creature. But it's not quite "oops, I win" if you don't have a sac outlet and I don't know how much better running emrakul over progenitus is.
Also, if you drop white from the deck, you lose sun titan. I was thinking about running consecrated sphinx or Sheoldred, Whispering One in its place. I don't know if it's the timmy in me, but I loved locking the opponent out with Sun Titan.
Also, this looks a little like the lists in the planeswalker rock thread. There are a lot of directions this deck could go in.
I think that Progenitus is actually harder to deal with than Emrakul at this point, although Emrakul does give you some built-in protection against Painter/Grindstone. Emrakul is just such a known entity that putting him into play is a little risky at this point. I'm not saying that it's impossible to deal with, but it seems easier than Prog. And GG should not be a problem for this deck's mana base, at all -- it's a base-green deck.
I am also far too attached to my Sun Titan to drop white, although I would argue that it's the Johnny instead of the Timmy. There's just too many cool interactions that can be abused with Titan, especially in a deck like this one. White also makes Finks easier to cast, and gives access to Swords/Path and Rector, as well as Enlightened Tutor sideboards. All of these things are important to my mind, although I'll grant that the E.T. sideboard is a little questionable.
RE: Planeswalker Rock -- they have a nice primer in the first post, but otherwise it looks very similar. They seem much more focused on what they're doing, whereas we're kind of all over the place -- some of us are in blue for Jace and Brainstorm, some of us play Gifts, some of us are straight BG. Someone (I think it was Phillip) commented a few pages back that he was working with red, as well. I think that the core region where we diverge from them is that they focus entirely around the planeswalkers (it's even in the deck title). This thread is much more of a pile of different plans -- but most of those plans are not incorporated into the Planeswalker deck. You wouldn't see a deck like that running Gifts, or even Titans, probably. At the same time, I could easily see it morphing into something like what's being developed here, or possibly even the other way around.
I guess, in short, that if I had to say anything regarding the 'Walker Rock thread, it's that it is another version of what we're working on here: a core archetype that revolves around the interaction between Veteran Explorer and Cabal Therapy, and works outward from there. There's just too many possible divergent paths all based around those two cards -- it reminds me greatly of the Survival era.
EDIT -- I forgot to address Phillip's post. In my experience, 2 Witnesses is just right. Either I have one in hand, in which case Gifts is dumb, or I Gifts for one, in which case it's almost invariably one of the cards I get. Outside of Gifts situations, it does some good work, but not really good enough that I think I'd want to add any more. Regrowing Swords and stuff like that is good, and I would advocate running 3 or even 4 in non-Gifts versions, but for me and my personal list, 2 is pretty much spot on, in my experience. Especially since I can abuse it with Sac Outlet + Titan, or Volrath's Stronghold.
I had time this evening and registered at magic-league to play a Trial with 48 players. I took out Gifts again and went for a 2 color version, similar to the one from Firemind but with Green Sun's Zenith. Green Sun's Zenith is amazing and I don't know why I had ever cut it.
// Lands
4 [B] Swamp
3 [B] Forest
3 [B] Bayou
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
1 [US] Phyrexian Tower
// Creatures
4 [SH] Wall of Blossoms
4 [FD] Eternal Witness
3 [WL] Veteran Explorer
1 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
1 [EVE] Wickerbough Elder
1 [EX] Spike Weaver
1 [UL] Deranged Hermit
1 [MBS] Thrun, the Last Troll
1 [COM] Scavenging Ooze
1 [M11] Grave Titan
// Spells
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach
2 [EX] Recurring Nightmare
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
2 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
2 [M12] Garruk, Primal Hunter
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 4 [TO] Chainer's Edict
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [WWK] Nature's Claim
R1 Staxx:
G1: He leads with plains and I can play Explorer but don't want it to get Sworded. I also had not much late game stuff so it might help him more than me if it dies. When he plays a turn 2 Trinisphere I see what his deck is and regret not playing the Explorer, didnt think about Staxx and Chalice would have been just as bad. He has a turn three Elspeth but luckily I have the Maelstrom Pulse. Next turn I can GSZ for Witness on Pulse and keep the Pulse in hand. I play Garruk while he has Moat plus Humility. I just sit back and make Tokens, keep lands in hand in case he Armageddon. I make 6 1/1 Wurms to go with my 4 1/1 Beasts and pass the turn. I destroy his Moat and attack for 10 (lethal).
+ 3 Nature's Claim
- 3 Cabal Therapy
G2: I Pulse an Elspeth again (should play third Pulse in Side), Hymn him and leave him with nothing relevant on board and no card in hand. Unfortunately he rips Ravages of War in the one turn before I can play something relevant. He gets Humility and a lot of lands, I get only two lands and draw Green Sun's Zenith EVERY turn. Fortunatley I win the game awkwardly with triple Explorer + Dryad Arbor beatdown.
R2 Aggro Loam with P Fire:
G1: He is ahead with won die roll and T1 Confidant, T2 Crusher. I play Deed and when he played Burning Wish with 2 Mana up I thought I lost to Reverent Silence or Hull Breach. But he wished for Devastating Dreams. No Enchantment Removal? He dreams for 2 (rest of his hand) and has no hand, 1 Land and a crusher, effectively locking himself out of the game after I Deeded for 0. I evetually have to chump his enourmous Crusher with Explorer though, but he had his one basic land already in yard. I am quite sure that this was played wrong from my opponent. He overreacted to my Deed and went all in on his lone Crusher. He probably should have Wished for Loam and just rebuild his board.
+ 4 Extirpate
+ 4 Chainers Edict
- 3 Therapy
- 4 Hymn
- 1 Garruk
G2: He starts with Mox Mox Loam, I Extirpate Loam. He plays Crusher, I Edict. He plays Crusher, I Pulse. He plays Knight of the Reliquiary, I rip another Edict. In his Draw Step I Extirpate his KotRs. He plays Goyf and Burning Wish for Loam. I Witness for Edict, planning to Rec. Nightmare the Witness back after chumping and get Extirpate. He dredges Worm Harvest so I am forced to Extirpate that instead and leave him with Loam plus cycle lands. The game goes on and he doesn't stop pressuring me (Triple Mox plus Loam and three cycle lands does that quite good) but I can Extirpate his Punishing Fire before he goes nuts with it and eventually even Tarmogoyf (never had time to go for Loam) to leave him with no win conditions after having dredged his last Crusher. I have to say the deck performed really well and there are not many decks that would have withstood his strong draw.
R3 Merfolk
G1: He starts with Vial / Lord of Atlantis. I have Deed and he floods with 8 lands 7 spells and my Garruk resolves. Very easy game because of that.
+ 4 Chainer's Edict
- 3 Cabal Therapy
- 1 Scavenging Ooze
G2: Too many Lords and a crucial Daze get me. Was too slow to stabilize.
G3: I Hymn him and when he doesn't Daze you know he probably does not have it. I feel good about my turn 3 Deed and it resolves and gets 2 Cursecatchers, a vial and an Adept. From then on I obviously have easy control. I drop to 4 life but always had leeway. Deranged hermit plus Rec Nightmare finish the job with style. But without Deed the matches might have been complicated.
R4 bye
R5 Merfolk
G1: I get Therpay plus Explorer. I guess right that he has an Lord of Atlantis in hand, then Flashback on his Reejerey, leaving him with a lot of irrelevant stuff and no pressure. My hand is Witness plus Recurring Nightmare plus Grave Titan. ezpz, thx deck for cooperating so well
SB:
+ 4 Chainer's Edict
- 3 Cabal Therapy
- 1 Scavenging Ooze
G2: I Edict his Adept, then he Forces a Pulse on Reejerey. I have low Mana but get GSZ on Explorer plus the Phyrexian Tower. With my Mana now fixed Grave Titan again gets there again, this time without help. Games didnt take longer than 5 minutes combined and I didnt need Deed.
R6: Merfolk again
G1: My opponent is late so I win G1 because of Tardiness.
G2: I open with Therapy plus GSZ into Explorer. That way I establish Control but he draws a Coralhelm Commander to fly over for 6 a turn. I leave him one draw step to find a Force for GSZ on Spike Weaver and unfortunately he does. But I rip too, the Weaver himself next turn, so he is locked because I have Recurring Nightmare for infinite Fogging as long as I don't let my Nightmare get countered. I play it ultra safe because I have so much stuff and think I have him hard locked. Nothing happens and I win easily with Nightmare / Witness shenanigans but in retrospect I maybe should have played a bit tighter because Dismember on Weaver would have still been lethal and some Folk lists maindeck that.
+ draws and deck, won Trial
- Magic League: they refuse to name the deck "Nic Fit" because that name doesn't describe what the deck is doing -_-
Congrats on the win! I was playing around with building a 4 color version to play at Gencon for the Legacy championships. I could not quite get the numbers down and ended up playing a Ubw control deck that went 2-2 drop in favor of a vintage side event because I was having strong success in vintage the day before.
I think getting back to a simple and stable GB version is strong and more consistent then the 3 and even 4 color version I was attempting.
How were 4 copies of GSZ? I saw you drew few in a row in one match. I wanted to try arbor with GSZ and no natural order as well, but thought it might not be very useful without NO. I like the list. And Garruk 2.0 is absolutely awesome.
Congrats man.
Have you considered Hornet Queen instead of Deranged Hermit?
Damn mouse with a "previous page" shortcut that deleted all my brilliant analysis. In a less argumented way :
Congrats Tao.
Remarks :
1/ Not a single instant removal, even in SB. The reanimator MU must be horrible.
2/ I'm not a fan of wall of blossom. 4th veteran is more effective at reaching the late game earlier. 2nd, 3rd and 4th finks is more effective at containing the opponent, even if it comes into play 1 turn later.
3/ Are you sure about hymn over 1CC targeted discard which reveals the opponent's hand for later cabals?
4/ How can you play less than 4 deeds ?
5/ You play too many 1-slot creatures according to me.
6/ Also I'd play 2/3 tops. With all the shuffling effects, it would be amazing.
I'd go :
// Lands
4 [B] Swamp
3 [B] Forest
3 [B] Bayou
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
1 [US] Phyrexian Tower
// Creatures
0 [SH] Wall of Blossoms (-4)
4 [FD] Eternal Witness
4 [WL] Veteran Explorer (+1)
4 [SHM] Kitchen Finks (+3)
1 [EVE] Wickerbough Elder
0 [EX] Spike Weaver (-1)
0 [UL] Deranged Hermit (-1)
0 [MBS] Thrun, the Last Troll (-1)
1 [COM] Scavenging Ooze
0 [M11] Grave Titan (-1)
// Spells
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (or duress/seizes, I don't know)
2 [EX] Recurring Nightmare
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed (+1)
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
2 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
3 [M12] Garruk, Primal Hunter (+1)
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top (+2)
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 4 [TO] Chainer's Edict
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [WWK] Nature's Claim
Something like this. I'd try to find some cheap instant removal in the SB, probably Dismember (deals with Jin-G).
@conboy: Thanks. Getting the numbers right on this is deck is frustrating. I still don't know if the 2-color version is the way to go or if I want Swords to Plowshares or Brainstorm or both.
@hyperchord24: GSZ was strong from turn 1/2 to the late game and ~always a welcome top deck. The opponent having Humility in play won't happen often, especially in combination with Armageddon to kill the Deed Mana.
@Philipp: Thanks. Giving the tokens Death Touch would be the best ability on Tokens ever but unfortunately Hornet Queen is that one Mana too expensive. GSZ for 8 Mana is not going to work.
@Maverick: Thanks.
- Instant Removal: You are right. Chainer's Edict should certainly be replaced with Diabolic Edicts. I thought quite long about that slot before the tournament but only in theory and never actually tested with this sideboard. I had Shriekmaw in that slot because it gets Merfolk Lords and Emrakul and has synergy with Nightmare. But it doesn't get Progenitus or Jin Gitaxias (in an acceptable fashion) and I didn't want to be cold to it because of the success that RUG and Reanimator have. That is why I decided to play an Edict and Innocent Blood is too often a horrible topdeck. So I went for Chainer because of the Extra value but just forgot that playing Chainer's Edict on Jin Gitaxias is very fail.
- Wall of Blossoms is imo good. The cycling is useful and they have synergy with Therpay. They gain life for not much Mana and if Hymn is not drawn there is not much else to do on turn 2 anyway. I just have better results with them doing their silent work. Blocking a 3/2 Adept and chumping when it gets 4/3 accumulates pretty quickly.
- About Hymn I am very sure! It is devastating for every opponent and one of the main reasons to stay in 2 colors. It was awesome in testing as well as in the tournament.
- Deed is dead in quite a few matchups: Storm Combo, Reanimator, Landstill. Not getting Planeswalkers is a big issue. Probably I go back to 4 Deeds though, like always ;)
- 1 slot creatures that you mentioned:
Spike Weaver: Very important, not wise to cut it. Locks the game until they draw spot removal and then you can revive it unless they kill you in one hit. The first Fog to survive is expensive, but then the two normal fogs for 1 Mana give you the time to develop your board or set up a big Deed.
Thrun, the Last Troll: A rare GSZ target. I wanted it in the deck because it usually performs well when drawn and because I expected Landstill. Could easily be replaced by more Finks if you want to draw more Finks rather than him.
Deranged Hermit: With 4 GSZ you need something big at some point. Hermit is the best choice for that slot.
Grave Titan: replaced a Karn with it 5 minutes before the tournament. Just something big to draw into and finish the game. I wouldn't replace it with a Finks, the deck needs some heavy cards at the top of the curve.
- Kitchen Finks: I think you overrate them. The problem is that they get dominated easily so playing 4 of them in a control deck without card draw can cause you to run out of gas.
- Sensei Top: imo just not the right card for this deck. The deck needs both spells and lands but Sensei can get you only one. The topdeck quality is still excellent even without it, thanks to GSZ, Witness, Recurring Nightmare and others.
@changes:
MD:
Just adding the fourth Deed and a third Pulse for creatures would lead to those awkward draws with only Removal and Discard and nothing to do. Hymn was awesome and is a certain 4-of. And Cabal Therapy is needed for Explorer.
SB:
- 4 Chainer's Edict
+ 4 Diabolic Edict
- 1 Nature's Claim
+ 1 Maelstrom Pulse
For Hymn and top, I'm still not convinced...
About Finks, playing 4 of them is probably too much. It was great when zoo was 25% of the field (in the worst case it traded for 2 life, 1 card and 1 land acceleration with path, in the best case it was killing 1 creature, gaining 4 life and chump blocking twice). Now, with a slow metagame and GSZ, 2 are probably enough.
Spike Weaver, maybe, but it's still 6 mana for the first fog that gets easily RFG. Poof, unswordable, Spore Frog looks better isn't it ?
Deranged Hermit is still bad if you ask me. You might have a look to this thread for the good 5/6CC GSZ targets. I'm not sure you need one though.
@Maveric:
About Hymn I am very sure. Which player is not terrified when he faces a Hymn? Dredge and Loam I guess but except them it is good against everything.
About Top I am not so sure. So far it does not seem like it is needed. With all the Zeniths, Walls, Nightmares, Witnesses and Garruks I rarely run out of gas.
Spore Frog is imo slightly worse. The advantage is that it is easier to fog once to survive. The disadvantage is that keeping it forces you to use Recurring Nightmare every turn so it becomes hard to find time doing other stuff. When drawn Spike Weaver is far better too.
Imo Deranged Hermit is the best alternative. Immune to Yard hate, still good when Sworded, relatively cheap, very synergetic with Recurring Nightmare (not paying Echo and then reviving it with one of the Tokens).
I thought about Terastadon but paying 9 Mana is unrealistic. Rampaging Baloths out of GSZ don't give anything when Sworded unless you have 7 Mana in play plus a land in hand.
My bad, since I was at work, I didn't look up the Queen, so I thought it was a strict upgrade to Hermit with similar or identical manacosts. You're right. Too bad, a GSZ able pseudo deed vs aggro decks would have been absurd.=Tao;575275@Philipp: Thanks. Giving the tokens Death Touch would be the best ability on Tokens ever but unfortunately Hornet Queen is that one Mana too expensive. GSZ for 8 Mana is not going to work.
I just looked through every green / green + x color creature on magiccards.info looking specifically to see if a 5 or 6 drop creature has been overlooked. It doesn't seem like it. I also looked at off color gold creatures to zenith into and splash a single dual land. Found nothing. I was briefly excited when I saw Vulturous Zombie, it is a 5 drop and from the new commander set which I did not pay much attention to. I then read his abilities and power for the first time. It is trash... oh well.
I am looking forward to the printing of a 3BG creature to zenith for in this deck with a nice CIPT.
My current build:
// Lands
2 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Savannah
1 Plains
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Scrubland
1 Maze of Ith
2 Marsh Flats
// Creatures
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Wall of Blossoms
4 Eternal Witness
3 Veteran Explorer
1 Uktabi Orangutan
3 Kitchen Finks
// Spells
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Recurring Nightmare
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
// Sideboard
SB: 1 Thrun, the Last Troll
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Vexing Shusher
SB: 3 Diabolic Edict
SB: 3 Angel's Grace
SB: 2 Inquisition of Kozilek
I like the inclusion of StP, but I think you are way too light on stuff the actually wins you the game. My 2 cents.
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