Grand Prix Providence- Most Popular Cards. Let's ban BLUE!

[Iare]

This. Stop calling for bans. The last one cost me a good $200.00 or so. Let the metagame settle and if blue is still dominant, then lets talk about bans.

Frankly, I see WotC banning Show and Tell long before Brainstorm.

I sure hope show and tell gets the ban hammer. Not so much because the card is warping the format but more that Herp Derp show and tell I win makes for a pretty shitty game. And, I would like to pull the oblivion rings out of every sideboard I have, since its really my only answer (Hell maindecking a karakas in every single deck gets old too). The deck requires no skill whatsoever and you really can't misplay with it. At least storm combo players can make a wrong move and let you win off that every now and again.

I don't mind painter stone much since painter dies to only about 12-20 cards in any of my decks :P (Plus shattering spree out the board tends to handle them well too). Although this whole post is just spike hoping his competition gets kicked in the balls so he can take the prize easier ;D

[joemauer]

Ironically isn't the rise in Blue due, at least in part, to WotC with the printing Mental Misstep? I mean Landstill decks and BUG decks were not dominating prior to the printing of Mental Misstep. It also allowed the Merfolk player an even to favorable match up against Goblins which was supposed to keep that deck in check.

MM also happens to be the most played card in the Top 8 at the GP. Its also true that looking at deck selection, most players tend to play Blue because their favorite cards are in the color (those cards also happen to be extremely powerful). We're in a state of Legacy right now were the pendulum is swinging toward the blue based control decks. Prior to this, we had several weeks were combo decks were ruling top eights of SCG Open events. Is it any surprise then to see the meta-games at top tables shift toward control?

I think wizards printed MM because combo was getting kinda popular. Wotc is known for hating combo.
Also, it's nice to shake things up in the legacy format every now and then. The metagame should be able to adapt. Drew Levin wrote some article on starcitygames when MM was first annouced. Said how MM would dominate then decks with 3's would take over(junk,stax,show and tell). It will keep shifting for awhile, and while it does lot of suprise decks like Hive Mind will have a good chance of winning. I love combo but I think this is a fun time for legacy.
All that being said if blue is still dominating in six months I do believe something has to be banned(probably brainstorm), but as of right now it is way too early to tell.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Admiral Arzar. How can you possibly call yourself a combo player and have Stax built?

Without combo, Legacy dies. Straight up.

I played Stax at Providence because I chickened out. Literally. I was going to play TES but figured I lacked the playskill to play around Mental Misstep all day, and decided to play a deck with no one drops. Didn't work out so well, LOL.

And yes, without combo, the format would die, as would my interest in it.

[Iare]

Except, mental misstep isn't good against combo really. Storm combo is mostly going to work a chant or some other hate through then go nuts anyway. MM replaces spell pierce or spell snare in most lists, things storm combo actually gave a rat's ass about. Mental misstep really only hurts the raw aggro decks, that weren't exactly dominating the field anyway. MM makes it so aggro decks will try and slow down with bigger fatties, which makes storm combo even stronger. To say this whole thing was to hate on storm is just stupid, this is a card they only thought about standard and extended when they printed.

In other words, Dear sir or madam I must contend that the state of affairs actually contradict the premises you have proposed.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Except, mental misstep isn't good against combo really. Storm combo is mostly going to work a chant or some other hate through then go nuts anyway. MM replaces spell pierce or spell snare in most lists, things storm combo actually gave a rat's ass about. Mental misstep really only hurts the raw aggro decks, that weren't exactly dominating the field anyway. MM makes it so aggro decks will try and slow down with bigger fatties, which makes storm combo even stronger. To say this whole thing was to hate on storm is just stupid, this is a card they only thought about standard and extended when they printed.

In other words, Dear sir or madam I must contend that the state of affairs actually contradict the premises you have proposed.

I was simply stating why I didn't play storm at GP: Providence. That doesn't mean the analysis is necessarily correct at all - although I believe your thinking is somewhat flawed, as blue now having eight hard counters for chants/protection spells is not particularly nice.

[joemauer]

Except, mental misstep isn't good against combo really. Storm combo is mostly going to work a chant or some other hate through then go nuts anyway. MM replaces spell pierce or spell snare in most lists, things storm combo actually gave a rat's ass about. Mental misstep really only hurts the raw aggro decks, that weren't exactly dominating the field anyway. MM makes it so aggro decks will try and slow down with bigger fatties, which makes storm combo even stronger. To say this whole thing was to hate on storm is just stupid, this is a card they only thought about standard and extended when they printed.

In other words, Dear sir or madam I must contend that the state of affairs actually contradict the premises you have proposed.

Control hasn't been a top dog in Legacy for awhile because it is tough to control fast aggro and fast combo. Having a card that really helps against the former and is not bad versus the latter(more free counterspells is always good versus storm) is the kind of shot in the arm that control needed. Which keeps combo down(not just storm but also dredge).

[JCLe]

The deck requires no skill whatsoever and you really can't misplay with it.

If that's your thought process for Show and Tell decks you're just ignorant of the mistakes you make. Cantrips, land drops, mulligans, everything that makes you interact with your opponent make the difference between a win and a loss. The two things I named apply to storm combo as well, but you should know that already since you are making some assumptions about the archetype. You just don't realize when Show and Tell players make a mistake.

If you can't realize this take notes of your games and examine every little different line of play, you clearly need to improve your mindset.

Except, mental misstep isn't good against combo really. Storm combo is mostly going to work a chant or some other hate through then go nuts anyway. MM replaces spell pierce or spell snare in most lists, things storm combo actually gave a rat's ass about. Mental misstep really only hurts the raw aggro decks, that weren't exactly dominating the field anyway. MM makes it so aggro decks will try and slow down with bigger fatties, which makes storm combo even stronger. To say this whole thing was to hate on storm is just stupid, this is a card they only thought about standard and extended when they printed.

In other words, Dear sir or madam I must contend that the state of affairs actually contradict the premises you have proposed.

Free counter for dark ritual and protection spells isn't good? You must be trolling. Let's pretend I'm a control or aggro-control player playing against combo with those non-free counters you mentionned (snare / pierce). I turn 1 island go, turn 2 whatever land go (unless you love being lucky and throw games), turn 3 land goyf/sfm/whatever the hell go. With mental misstep you can apply pressure earlier, counter a turn 1 duress effect on the draw which gives no information to the storm player, etc. I am aware it might be worse in some situations, and maybe worse overall against storm, but not close to bad. Another free counter is also a psychological threat, which might make players to slowroll to much and wait for that extra piece, even if the other deck runs pierce or snare instead. It is clearly a bad card for storm players, if it didn't make you worry (doubt you actually play storm) then good for you.

Making aggro decks slower don't make storm better, the ability of the control deck to win more, hence advance in tournaments, thus having more in the field to stop storm, makes the combo decks worse. Since when does storm/combo has a problem with creature decks? They rarely lose to the archetype, that's the main reason they exist.

[DragoFireheart]

Except, mental misstep isn't good against combo really. Storm combo is mostly going to work a chant or some other hate through then go nuts anyway.

I can counter their Duress, Silence/Chant and then leave them wondering if they can go off. Most blue decks are packing at least 8 hard counters (FoW and MMS) along with either 6-8 more hard counters (CS, Spell Snare) or soft counters (Spell Pierce, Cursecatcher, Daze).

No, MMS hurts Storm more than you think, though they can still fight through it. Just harder now.

[Iare]

If that's your thought process for Show and Tell decks you're just ignorant of the mistakes you make. Cantrips, land drops, mulligans, everything that makes you interact with your opponent make the difference between a win and a loss. The two things I named apply to storm combo as well, but you should know that already since you are making some assumptions about the archetype. You just don't realize when Show and Tell players make a mistake.

If you can't realize this take notes of your games and examine every little different line of play, you clearly need to improve your mindset.



Free counter for dark ritual and protection spells isn't good? You must be trolling. Let's pretend I'm a control or aggro-control player playing against combo with those non-free counters you mentionned (snare / pierce). I turn 1 island go, turn 2 whatever land go (unless you love being lucky and throw games), turn 3 land goyf/sfm/whatever the hell go. With mental misstep you can apply pressure earlier, counter a turn 1 duress effect on the draw which gives no information to the storm player, etc. I am aware it might be worse in some situations, and maybe worse overall against storm, but not close to bad. Another free counter is also a psychological threat, which might make players to slowroll to much and wait for that extra piece, even if the other deck runs pierce or snare instead. It is clearly a bad card for storm players, if it didn't make you worry (doubt you actually play storm) then good for you.

Making aggro decks slower don't make storm better, the ability of the control deck to win more, hence advance in tournaments, thus having more in the field to stop storm, makes the combo decks worse. Since when does storm/combo has a problem with creature decks? They rarely lose to the archetype, that's the main reason they exist.

Pl0x sir, Show and tell > fatty is the easiest play ever invented, if you think otherwise you are certainly wrong. Storm combo can just play MM and get the extra storm count from countering yours, now I don't play storm personally but I know a few people who do and they are really happy about the printing of MM.

It makes them much better against aggro even, I was boarding 11 cards against storm (7 chant and 4 traps) and actually had a decent shot against them. Now that they can pack MM and deal with my chants in response to their chant and other none-sense I pretty much have to abandon the matchup or take up playing blue.

The only reason storm might hurt from this is more people playing blue, which at this point I think is what I am going to do. Can't beat them, join them.

And, no I am not trolling I just have no respect for stupid decks like Show and Tell > fatty. . Its just a dumb deck with lazy design and I don't like its existence, I am entitled not to like things :) I mean right now show and tell is possibly as broken as tinker is. Tinker might get your choice of artifact fatty but you can't get the spaghetti monster.

[dearleader]

Packing MM in Tendrils decks seems pretty iffy. You get a free counterspell, but at the expense of threat density. What's the point of countering their Misstep on your ritual, when you could just play another ritual to start with? I know it's not that simple, but the point I'm trying to make is that the benefit of running Misstep comes at a non-insignificant price, and I'd try maindeck REB before running Misstep to counter their Misstep. MM does hurt storm combo of all variety.

As for bans, I can see the reasoning behind banning Brainstorm - that it hurts 3 color aggro-control and combo simultaneously, and hurts Merfolk by reducing the number of blue decks to prey on.
But this format is fine right now. There's no evidence of any deck or archetype systematically dominating the metagame, and the dominance of blue will probably change as the metagame changes. Wasn't everyone playing Countertop and Canadian and Merfolk a few years ago, before Zoo was a deck?

Also, I don't know why so many people think S&T combo is dumb, but no comment is made about Natural Order. Natural Order decks tend to be a bit more interactive and plays more like slow combo, I'll give you that, but it's just as much of an 'oops i win' card.

[Iare]

Packing MM in Tendrils decks seems pretty iffy. You get a free counterspell, but at the expense of threat density. What's the point of countering their Misstep on your ritual, when you could just play another ritual to start with? I know it's not that simple, but the point I'm trying to make is that the benefit of running Misstep comes at a non-insignificant price, and I'd try maindeck REB before running Misstep to counter their Misstep. MM does hurt storm combo of all variety.

As for bans, I can see the reasoning behind banning Brainstorm - that it hurts 3 color aggro-control and combo simultaneously, and hurts Merfolk by reducing the number of blue decks to prey on.
But this format is fine right now. There's no evidence of any deck or archetype systematically dominating the metagame, and the dominance of blue will probably change as the metagame changes. Wasn't everyone playing Countertop and Canadian and Merfolk a few years ago, before Zoo was a deck?

Also, I don't know why so many people think S&T combo is dumb, but no comment is made about Natural Order. Natural Order decks tend to be a bit more interactive and plays more like slow combo, I'll give you that, but it's just as much of an 'oops i win' card.

Storm players care more about spell pierce and spell snare than they do a MM. They are just better cards against storm all around , so if you are taking out spell pierce or spell snare for MM you have weakened your combo matchup. Find me storm players who dissagree with this then we will talk :) The only thing MM does for you is allow you to easily counter chant/silence from their board, they can adapt to win anyway (The matchup really isn't much different). Combo players playing MM isn't out of the question I don't think, since it hits TEH TOP nicely.

Natural order is at least a fair enough card, it costs 4, isn't blue and can't drop the spaghetti monster. At least I have the chance to race Prog, racing the great spaghetti god is a no go. Plus they have to have a green creature to sack, that requires at least some thought into deck construction instead of herp derp throw in show and tell and giant fatties.