And the hits keep coming. He was truly a one card combo. Playing Grunt in a deck with Didgeridoo and Tahngarth was obscenly unfair.Originally Posted by Shawon
IBA, didn't you get banned from SCG's forum for having an elitist discussion with Ben? Right around Flash if I recall.
Someone unarchieve the Source Cards thread.
Team ICBE - We're so good at playing Threshold, we don't even play it.
Team Keg Stand - If only the kegs weren't empty...
No, I was already banned. I was banned again for using a prop account.
My brother, on the other hand, was banned for having an elitist (i.e., being right) conversation Bleiweiss. Either that or being my brother, it wasn't really clear which.
eta, also:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ource-Cards%29
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
This is awesome. Nightmare you're awesome.
Amazing articles, looking forward to reading the final one. Thanks, Nightmare.
Just.... No.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
To be honest, the number one reason I read the first article was to see how different your recollection of the birth of the format was from mine. I am happy to hear someone from the East Coast admit that ATS was trash, even if it is 7 years late. It was a very regionalized view, but I expected that. At least you mentioned that the West Coast existed, which was more than anyone was willing to do in '04.
Jack: the old guard had a well-deserved reputation for elitism. You don't realize it only because guys like TB or FakeSpam were no worse then than you are today. The only reason that I can stand you is because I usually agree with you. But any of you three could give Tucker Max lessons in assholery. When I first posted UGBW Landstill because I was tearing up the 45-50 man weekly tournaments in San Diego (the largest weekly tournaments in the US at the time), it was promptly dismissed by the East Coasters who were convinced that ATS was the only tier 1 deck (and were still convinced that the 2-for-1 manafacts were broken and would eventually spawn the most domiinating deck ever). Dave Hernandez posted Zoo because Chris and I weren't even going to bother, knowing the general feeling that the 'cusers who dominated the site had towards aggro. Even then, the first dozen pages of the San Diego Zoo thread looked eerily similar to Finn's Mefolk thread now, with most people scoffing at the idea that the deck could be competitive and denouncing cards they'd never even seen played.
It's largely for that reason that I don't post decklists anymore. I'll PM lists I'm working on to people who express interest, but I don't make them public. If the two best lists I ever designed (or co-designed in the case of Zoo) got nothing but hate and contempt, why bother sharing any new ideas? It's unlikely that the stuff I'm working on now will still be relevant 7 years from now.
So yeah, I agree with Adam's assessment that it was for the good of the format when those people went away. Otherwise, good article. I will read the 2nd and 3rd links when I get home. I'm hoping you'll include the early Gen Con Worlds T8's. Big Arse was only representative of the EC meta.
Fundamentally, I think it's unreasonable to expect to challenge wide-spread assumptions without having to defend your challenge. If you went to a serious forum on Standard and started trashing Caw-Blade or talked about how Soldiers was the best undiscovered deck, you wouldn't have an easier time of it. I didn't pop over to the Mana Drain and start telling people what was the best Vintage deck, and if I had I certainly expected to be challenged on it and have to defend my points with well-constructed arguments. I don't go out lecturing about the intricacies of any draft environment I haven't played extensively.
I mean I had to deal with these people. The first deck I ever posted on this site was a 1.5 era MWC deck in the era of powered Workshop/Bazaar/ManaDrain decks that tried to win with soldiers and Skullclamp. When NOVA players got tired of dealing with the bullshit coming out of New Yorkers we didn't complain, we drove up seven-eight hours to kick their asses and take their money.
This is and should be a serious discussion board, and if in being such it has a chilling effect on people spamming out bad decklists and ill-thought out arguments, good. If pros that have never touched the format before don't want to come over and post terrible decklists and talk about how unexplored Legacy is/how their deck should dominate it, because they think we're insular or elitist, good.
This idea that all opinions are or should be equal, regardless of experience, is so much bullshit, frankly.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
It was annoying. I remember Smemmen posting an article on SCG after the change saying that he was going to break the format open with FEB (Full English Breakfast, a Volrath's Shapeshifter deck, for those of you without an eternal tenire stretching back over a decade). There were others, but he was the main antagonist. As an aside, I have 1 warning on this site and I'm almost positive it was for trashing the shit out of Steve. Ironically enough, Nightmare was the one who gave it to me. But I wasn't walking into the forums as some Vintage name trying to show my poor cousins how to break a format. I'd made the switch a year prior and I wasn't posting theoretical bullshit combo decks, I was posting the most advanced control deck of the era with results to back it up. But I couldn't head to NY to prove it. I'm sure NOVA to NY is quite the trip, but it's not the Mexican border on the Pacific to the Canadian border on the Atlantic. And the SD meta was twice the size of anything else in the country or better. I doubt there's a scene even now that posts bigger weekly events than we did. But that's what I'm saying. You guys out East were so insular and so fucking cocky you wouldn't even fucking test the shit that was doing well elsewhere. That's why there were 3 distinct metas and why the SD crew stopped posting on this site.
I played San Diego Zoo for awhile, and plenty of people played BUG Landstill after that list was posted. I always thought, "Wow 50-60 players at these West Coast Tournaments??". Your opinion was actually respected by many, and that deck was good, it was also pretty clear that you and your friends were the "ringers" of that environment. I read some tournament reports back then, but I seem to remember alot of "scrub" titles for rounds. He's writing about his perspective of how Legacy grew up, and if you take offense to your pov being absent, than you really just want some recognition. It's not like you guys were open minded.
And I played ATS for 2 years, and I won plenty of games without Survival. That deck could go 50/50 with Welder MuD, and destroy people with Quirion Ranger + Rofellos. Sticking a Survival was GG, and it was the hardest deck to play at the time. Maybe it was a pile without Survival, but 1.5 was all about balls. If you wanted to win with Tradewind Rider and Seedborn Muse, you could.
Gilded Drake, Mystic Snake, Uktabi Orangutan. I remember when Eternal Witness got printed and Survival players rejoiced. I still remember losing at some Syracuse tournament when I disenchanted some NoVa player when he had a mana up. Those mistakes you'll never forget...
Edit: Oh, and great article.
Troop: I'm not surprised that his perspective was different than mine. I actually think Nightmare's articles (I did end up reading the other two on my phone while driving around delivering pizzas because I'm a terrible human being) were excellent and I don't mind the regionalism at all. To be honest, I was surprised that he touched on other metagames; like I said, there was a vocal segment of the site that ignored anything that didn't happen in snowy places.
He's writing what he knows and I'd rather that than try and come up with some objective look at what was going on that whole time, like he doesn't even touch on European Legacy but it's probably a good thing; he'd probably get it wrong. I certainly would. I know nothing of European Legacy until shortly prior to the M. Tutor ban. IBA just has the ability to drive me bonkers, much as he does to a lot of other people. And to be honest, the EC/WC/Dallas TX thing was a real sore point for me back then. I'm surprised that I've still got as much anger about that as I do, but it frustrated me no end. I wasn't particularly enamored with U/G Madness, but I felt like the Texas metagame got an even shorter end of the stick around here than we did. I guess I just have a lot of residual frustration from that era.
On ATS: The deck could win without Survival, but it didn't do so nearly as well as RGSA. It was definitely a bad aggro backup plan. Of course, ATS was better at landing Survival than RGSA or WeldSur because it packed E. Tutor and Force of Will, but a terribly low blue count that always left me feeling like RecSur was actually the best Survival deck (or the aforementioned RGSA). Still, I wrote a primer on Survival decks back then and I treated it with respect, since I knew I'd get flamed to hell and back if I said I felt like it was simply worse than any other Survival deck.
Tbh, I wasn't really aware that anyone paid any attention to anything that was coming out of San Diego back then. I guess you can say I want recognition (not a lot of people that don't) but at this point, it's water under the bridge. Like I said, the comment was more aimed at IBA and the ghosts of TeenieBoppers past. I'm not sure if it came off like it or not, but I wasn't trying to say that I wanted to be in Nightmare's article, just that IBA's implication that I was posting untested crap like a lot of people were wont to do back then was unwarranted.
Thanks for jumping in on this one Troop, it really helped me calm down and get my head on straight again. I just need to remember it's not January of '05. :)
@ Spikey
I drove 8 hours to play the the SCG Dual for Duals in VA back in 2006, just so my UWb Fish deck could get some recognition. Unfortunately, I came in 9th (bad tiebreakers), and many people on the Source still scoffed it off, even with wins against some big names like Alix Hatfield. Shit happens, Legacy used to be elitist. It's not really any better now, with such a big flood of IMPS. Just play the game to enjoy it, and screw the ignoramus who understimate good ideas.
Agree with this completely. No matter what you do or say, someone will Always disagree.
Beyond that, I have been playing magic since Onslaught, so compared to many on here I am a new player. I started Casually and didnt start playing competitively until Betrayers. It is nice to see where the format came from. Even if it does not include all angles according to some, it is nice to read.
What decks do you think were taken seriously or accepted as tier'd off the bat? That never happens. Every deck has to prove itself. Hell, Thresh had to prove itself, and that would eventually become the ubiquitous archetype for Legacy decks. Landstill had to prove itself. So did Vial Goblins. Not coincidentally, in the process lists got polished and the proving got easier.
A lot of great decks probably existed and exist that just don't get played, but that's reality. If you want people to play your brew you have to pitch it aggressively, deal with whatever criticisms people come up with in a level-headed fashion, and be able to articulate its strategy to victory and how to play the thing correctly. And you need results, and more than 9th at one tournament. Generally more than just one guy, so you also need to persuade others to build it.
The metagame, aka what people feel like playing on any given weekend, is a fickle force, and bending it even partly to your whim takes effort and luck. Moreso the further you're trying to buck orthodoxy.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
Weird part about this is that I started playing Legacy in some store in NY. It was in a mall. Clifton Park maybe? I got stationed in San Diego about the time they split the lists. There was a lot of animosity toward the northerners, so I just shut my mouth about it. The only thing about the arguing back and forth was the ignoring of Rod's reanimator list that was beating face in San Diego. It's actually the current start of the U/B reanimator thread that's still active 6 or 7 years later.
On a more important topic, when's the rest of the series going up?
Whenever I see a kid in a wheelchair it makes me a little sad. Because I always think, "Gee, they could have used those same wheels to make a bike for a regular kid. What a waste."
Giving Peter Rotten credit for welder mud is a TRAVESTY. EVERYONE knows he was a dragon player lol. No love for Norm.
Lol i played in those as well, I'm sure we ran into each other.
I remember that deck and i liked it on the spot, even though i didn't play blue back then. When someone says fish, my mind says Hanni fish:)
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