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Thread: Sylvan Library and Life from the Loam interaction

  1. #1
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    Sylvan Library and Life from the Loam interaction

    Hey all, I just had a few question regarding the interactions between Sylvan Library and Life from the Loam.

    How it's usually played in my group for Sylvan Library is we set our hand aside and draw 3 from Sylvan Library, then choose which to draw into our hand.

    My questions are as follows:

    a) Dredge can replace any of the extra draws, correct?

    b) Do I get to see the extra cards before I get to Dredge? Example: Do I look at the Top 3, then decide to Dredge, or do I decide to Dredge before I look at any of the cards on top of my Library? What if I want to draw regularly for my turn, then Dredge for one of the extra cards, then draw for the last one, paying 8 life? What if I want to just pay 4 Life and Dredge the extra card?

    Note: The way we shortcut it in our playgroup is by essentially Topping during our draw, then rearrange and pay life if we want to draw extra.

    If my question isn't clear, let me know. I'm curious because I'm running Library in Loam, and I want to make sure I'm doing it correctly.

    -Matt

  2. #2
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    Re: Sylvan Library and Life from the Loam interaction

    Quote Originally Posted by sdematt View Post
    a) Dredge can replace any of the extra draws, correct?
    Correct.

    b) Do I get to see the extra cards before I get to Dredge? Example: Do I look at the Top 3, then decide to Dredge, or do I decide to Dredge before I look at any of the cards on top of my Library? What if I want to draw regularly for my turn, then Dredge for one of the extra cards, then draw for the last one, paying 8 life? What if I want to just pay 4 Life and Dredge the extra card?
    You may select to Dredge either your regular draw, or either of the 2 extra draws from Sylvan Library. This must be selected instead of drawing a card off the top of your deck. If you use Sylvan Library's trigger, then you must either put 2 cards back, or pay 4 life for each. You must attempt to put back 2 cards however, even if you dredged 1. Note that you cannot put the dredged card back to satisfy Sylvan Library - it must be either of the two cards actually drawn.

    The only way to avoid putting the cards back is to dredge all 3 extra draws. Then, you will not have drawn any cards at all this turn, and will not have any cards to put back for Sylvan Library, nor require to pay 4 life each to put them back.

    Example:

    1. Draw (turn)
    2. Dredge (Sylvan #1)
    3. Draw (Sylvan #2)

    You must pay 8 life to keep the 2 drawn cards, or pay 4 life and put back card #1 or card #3; but not card #2.

    Note: The way we shortcut it in our playgroup is by essentially Topping during our draw, then rearrange and pay life if we want to draw extra.
    This isn't how the current Sylvan Library Oracle text reads, and so it's technically cheating.
    Sylvan Library today reads: "At the beginning of your draw step, you may draw two additional cards. If you do, choose two cards in your hand drawn this turn. For each of those cards, pay 4 life or put the card on top of your library."

    Once the cards go on top of your library, they remain there and there are no additional draw effects. You must select to dredge a draw prior to seeing all 3 cards.
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  3. #3

    Re: Sylvan Library and Life from the Loam interaction

    a) Correct.

    b) No, you directly draw them, according to Library. The procedure is that you draw your usual card, or dredge something instead; then you decide to draw the Library cards, or not; if you choose to draw, you first draw one (or dredge) then draw another one (or dredge). The order in which you draw or dredge doesn't matter, the final number of cards actually drawn does, for you must still choose two and pay life or return them. If you draw one and dredge the rest, you must decide only for that one; if you dredge all, there's nothing to return or pay life for.

  4. #4
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    Re: Sylvan Library and Life from the Loam interaction

    Ok, that cleared up the confusion. Thanks very much!

    -Matt

  5. #5
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    Re: Sylvan Library and Life from the Loam interaction

    So, someone on the Aggro Loam thread said this:
    You don't have to pay four life to dredge an extra time. Dredge replaces a draw, and Library references "cards drawn" - which dredged cards are not. You will have to pay life for draws not replaced with dredges (assuming you want to keep the cards), since you have to put back two cards you've drawn this turn, even if you haven't drawn two cards yet.

    EDIT: from Oracle -

    "If you choose to draw two cards, then replace one or more of those draws with some other effect, the rest of Sylvan Library's ability still happens. If you've actually drawn only one card that turn, you must choose that card and either pay 4 life or put it on top of your library. If you haven't actually drawn any cards that turn, the rest of the ability has no effect."
    So, I just want to be 100% clear:

    You draw 3 cards for the turn, 1 "naturally" for the turn. If you draw any extra cards, you pay 4 Life per card drawn. But, you replace those draws with a Dredge. If you do so, you still pay 4 life per extra Dredge on top of the one allowed for the card originally drawn in the draw step. You don't have to put cards back, since you didn't draw them.

    Is that correct?

    Also, if you have multiple Sylvan Libraries out, how many cards do you see if you don't Dredge? Do they resolve independently or trigger together? As in, do I draw 4 extra cards (5 total) during my draw phase then pay 4 life per extra card if I want to draw/Dredge?

    -Matt

  6. #6

    Re: Sylvan Library and Life from the Loam interaction

    Sylvan library oracle text:
    At the beginning of your draw step, you may draw two additional cards. If you do, choose two cards in your hand drawn this turn. For each of those cards, pay 4 life or put the card on top of your library.

    This is how I strongly believe it works:
    1)
    You draw your standard card.
    2)
    You can decide to draw 2 additional cards (Sylvan library). All or none of the draws in 1) or 2) can be replaced to "dredge" a card back into your hand. Instead of drawing this replacement effect takes place (does not use stack)
    @sdmatt: You do NOT pay life for drawing cards but for failing to put back less then 2 cards drawn this turn after deciding to use 2)!
    3)
    If you decide to do 2) you have to put 2 cards drawn by either 1) or 2) (or some instant card draw during upkeep) back on the top of your library. For each card less than 2 you have to pay 4 life. Draws replaced by dredging a card can not be put back to meet the condition described in 3).

    If you replace 1 draw with dredge:
    a)pay 4 life and keep one of the two cards drawn and put the other back on top.
    b) put both drawn cards back (in any order)
    If you replace 2 draws with dredge (e.g. 2 LftL):
    a) but back your only natural draw and fail to put back a second (you only drew 1 card); therefore also pay 4 life
    b) keep your only draw (and the 2 LftL of course) and therefore pay 8 life because you can put no card on top
    If you replace all 3 draws with dredge:
    a) pay 8 life like a man

    ------------------------------------

    Advanced rules question:
    what happens if I only have 3 life but dredge all 3 draws? I can neither pay the life nor put back legal cards I believe. What is the solution?

  7. #7

    Re: Sylvan Library and Life from the Loam interaction

    Quote Originally Posted by sdematt View Post
    So, someone on the Aggro Loam thread said this:


    So, I just want to be 100% clear:

    You draw 3 cards for the turn, 1 "naturally" for the turn. If you draw any extra cards, you pay 4 Life per card drawn. But, you replace those draws with a Dredge. If you do so, you still pay 4 life per extra Dredge on top of the one allowed for the card originally drawn in the draw step. You don't have to put cards back, since you didn't draw them.

    Is that correct?
    If you choose to use its effect and draw two extra, Sylvan Library requires you to put two cards in your hand drawn this turn back if you can.

    At the beginning of your draw step, you may draw two additional cards. If you do, choose two cards in your hand drawn this turn. For each of those cards, pay 4 life or put the card on top of your library.

    What you quoted is correct, but you may have misinterpreted. If you replace all of your draws that turn, you don't have to pay any life because you don't have any cards in your hand that you drew that turn. If you replace one draw, you have to put the two cards drawn back or pay life. If you replace two draws, you have to put the one card back or pay 4 life.

    Also, if you have multiple Sylvan Libraries out, how many cards do you see if you don't Dredge? Do they resolve independently or trigger together? As in, do I draw 4 extra cards (5 total) during my draw phase then pay 4 life per extra card if I want to draw/Dredge?

    -Matt
    You draw two put two back, draw two put two back, etc. Unless you pay life or replace the draws, you won't see any extra cards beyond the first library.
    “It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.
    -David DeLaney

  8. #8
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    Re: Sylvan Library and Life from the Loam interaction

    Okay, I think I get what you're saying.

    I just want to 100% sure before I walk into SCG Seattle. Just say whether or not I'm correct:

    I go to my draw step with 2 Life from the Loam in the bin.

    a) The first card, the card I'd draw normally for my turn, is instead Dredged. I then decide to draw the extra 2 off Sylvan, then rearrange and put those two back. I lose no life, as the extra cards drawn have been put back.

    b) I draw my first card of the turn into my hand, then Dredge a card from Sylvan Library, then draw the last card into my hand. I put the last card drawn from Sylvan back on top. Since I drew 2 cards this turn, whether or not by Sylvan or what would have naturally been draw, I have to pay 4 for each card drawn into my hand or put it back. In this case, 1 out of 3 was Loamed, and 2 were drawn, so I'd either pay 4 to keep one card or 8 for both and I get a Dredge.

    Basically my point here is Sylvan doesn't care which you Dredged or not, it's "wondering" if out of the three you drew, how many are you putting back. Right?

    c) I Dredge two cards out of the total 3 drawn this turn, with 2 being from Sylvan and one naturally. I have to pay 4 life or put the one card naturally drawn back.

    -----

    So again, it doesn't matter which were Sylvan and which were natural draws, Sylvan only keeps track of how many cards were drawn, and how many were put back. Up to 2 must be put back or pay 4 life for drawing them into your hand.

    So, essentially, you profit maximally when you Dredge 3 Life from the Loam, as all your draws have converted to Dredges, and you have drawn no cards, so you can't put any back, compared to Dredging twice and drawing once.

    Let me know if I'm getting it. I think like you said, I'm just thinking about it the wrong way, but it's working out correctly, essentially. I'm thinking I'm paying 4 Life for the extra Dredge, but I'm really paying 4 life for not putting back the card I drew.

    -Matt

  9. #9

    Re: Sylvan Library and Life from the Loam interaction

    Your examples are correct.

    If you read the Oracle text, I don't think it's very difficult to get why it works from the text:

    At the beginning of your draw step, you may draw two additional cards. If you do, choose two cards in your hand drawn this turn. For each of those cards, pay 4 life or put the card on top of your library.

    "Choose two cards in your hand drawn this turn" will do as much as possible, so if you only have one card in hand drawn this turn you'll choose that card. If you have no cards drawn this turn, you won't choose any.
    “It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.
    -David DeLaney

  10. #10
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    Re: Sylvan Library and Life from the Loam interaction

    This is much better than I thought. Thanks Chuck!

    -Matt

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