I don't have that problem. There's always been someone in my playgroup who doesn't have fliers for Kaalia to hit. My other problem with Whispersilk Cloak is Equip . It's nearly impossible to cast Kaalia of the Vast and equip her with Whispersilk Cloak in the same turn which leaves her open to removal. Swiftfoot Boots from M12 will be a much better second equipment, IMO.
There's plenty of demons and dragons that nuke everyone else's creatures. Nine mana is way too much.
I like that Desolation Angel is a 'geddon plus a creature, but seven mana is a lot for a 'geddon. I'd probably run Boom // Bust first if I wanted a third 'geddon.
I've never needed chump blockers. It's my opponents who've wished for chump blockers. Emeria Angel is nice with Archangel of Strife, but not to the point where I'd spend a tutor for the interaction. I'm not convinced it's better than any angels, demons, or dragons I'm already running
Luminarch Ascension is just an all around fantastic EDH card. I considered it while building the deck, but perhaps I was too quick to dismiss it. I thought it was one of those "oh look, this card makes angels, so it should go in my angel deck despite having no synergy with the general" cards that EDH players like to run without thinking about it. Your post made me realize that it's a good card that fits in well with the beatdown theme of the deck. I'll try to fit it in.
Please do. I'd love to see some other Kaalia lists.
Yeah, I think Boom // Bust is better. I love Desolation Angel and I wish it fit better too.
Good point about Shred Memory. I didn't think that it could tutor for Boom // Bust. Just an FYI, but often the best thing to tutor for with Shred Memory is Demonic Tutor. It essentially becomes search for any card, but you can split up the mana over two turns. That's why Shred Memory is an EDH staple.
Great catch. That was a total oversight on my part after adding mass land destruction. I'll add one.
Bladewing the Risen is one of the weakest creatures in the deck. I haven't been satisfied with him either, but I haven't played enough games to be sure I want to take him out. Furnace Dragon doesn't work when put onto the battlefield with Kaalia.
Changes:
- Mountain
- Plains
- Baneslayer Angel
+ Flagstones of Trokair
+ Bojuka Bog
+ Victory's Herald
After M12:
- Xathrid Demon
- Mana-Charged Dragon
- Swamp
+ Aegis Angel
+ Rune-Scarred Demon
+ Swiftfoot Boots
Victory's Herald is a better lifelinker than Baneslayer Angel. There's little reason to run Basics in this deck. There's no Blood Moon in my metagame, and the deck can still run off of artifacts and red mana.
Yosei, the Morning Star lock wasn't practical. Oni of Wild Places + Rakdos the Defilier was a better combo, and only needed the general as a third piece. I never tutored for the combo, so Xathrid Demon is no longer necessary.
Still not sure where to put in Luminarch Ascension.
Yeah, turns out Boom//Bust's CMC is 2 and 6. I actually had someone yell for a judge the last time I did that at the local card shop - dude swore that it was 8cmc, turns out he was just grasping at straws trying not to get blown out. Word to the wise, don't be a douchehammer when you just Genesis Wave'd for 33 the game before. Anyway...
Once I acquire a few more tutors I'll be Shred Memory --> Demonic Tutor for sure. For now it's only grabbing cards that it can actually grab, if that makes sense.
Agree with Bladewing the Risen, I'm on the fence in a big way. Facepalm on Furnace Dragon, guess I should rtfc. Although to be fair, we run enough artifacts that it wouldn't be impossible to just, like, cast it for 5, although that probably sucks since we want to keep whatever "shroud boots" we happen to have in play.Bladewing the Risen is one of the weakest creatures in the deck. I haven't been satisfied with him either, but I haven't played enough games to be sure I want to take him out. Furnace Dragon doesn't work when put onto the battlefield with Kaalia.
I couldn't imagine taking out Baneslayer - of all the Kaalia-friendly fatties one could play she seems like she has the most reasonable cmc. Victory's Herald seems like a beast though. Strongly considering adding it to my lifelinkers.Changes:
- Mountain
- Plains
- Baneslayer Angel
+ Flagstones of Trokair
+ Bojuka Bog
+ Victory's Herald
After M12:
- Xathrid Demon
- Mana-Charged Dragon
- Swamp
+ Aegis Angel
+ Rune-Scarred Demon
+ Swiftfoot Boots
Victory's Herald is a better lifelinker than Baneslayer Angel. There's little reason to run Basics in this deck. There's no Blood Moon in my metagame, and the deck can still run off of artifacts and red mana.
Yosei, the Morning Star lock wasn't practical. Oni of Wild Places + Rakdos the Defilier was a better combo, and only needed the general as a third piece. I never tutored for the combo, so Xathrid Demon is no longer necessary.
Still not sure where to put in Luminarch Ascension.
One dude I don't think will work too well in my meta is Malfegor. Motherfuckers were casting Bribery and blowing me out with my own dude, I had just insane board position to boot. Land Tax + Malfegor is some kind of combo - especially when you don't even have to run Malfegor. So he might sit on the bench for a minute if I keep getting Bribery'd. :(
Last edited by TsumiBand; 07-08-2011 at 12:21 PM. Reason: left a bit out, herp derp
This is my current RL list with m12 changes. Dunno what gets fired for Aegis Angel. I need to order some of the more obscure older angels and demons that I don't have also and maybe improve the mana base. I guess I could pull Imperial Seal from my Vintage deck and Moat from Enchantress but don't really feel like it for a casual deck. I don't run any geddon effects besides desolation angel cause my playgroup really hates when someone blows up all the lands and you instantly are the target. Blowing up lands if a body is attached like Desolation Angel or Sunder Titan is more acceptable. Whispersilk cloak is necessary in my play group because more fliers and more chances to draw protecton.
Kaalia of the Vaast
Lands (36)
Arid Mesa
Badlands
Bloodstained Mire
Bojuka Bog
City of Brass
Command Tower
Dragonskull Summit
Godless Shrine
Flagstones of Trokair
Marsh Flats
Sacred Foundry
4 Mountain
Plateau
4 Plains
Reflecting Pool
Rupture Spire
4 Swamp
Scrubland
Skalding Tarn
Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion
Strip Mine
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Wasteland
Verdant Catacombs
Volrath's Stronghold
Mana Rocks (9)
Boros Signet
Darksteel Ingot
Coalition Relic
Cold Steel Heart
Felwar Stone
Mindstone
Orhov Signet
Rakdos Signet
Sol Ring
Tutors (6)
Demonic Tutor
Diabolic Tutor
Enlightened Tutor
Lilana Vess
Shred Memory
Vampiric Tutor
Draw (8)
Mind's Eye
Night's Whisper
Necropotence
Phyrexian Arena
Sensei's Diving Top
Skeletal Scrying
Sign in Blood
Yawgmoth's Will
Equipment (3)
Lightning Greaves
Swiftfoot Boots (was dark steel plate)
Whisperwind Cloak
Creatures
Angels (15)
Akroma Angel of Wrath
Akroma Angel of Fury
Archangel of Strife
Angelic Arbiter
Angel of Despair
Baneslayer Angel
Desolation Angel
Emeria Angel
Iona Shield of Emeria
Platinum Angel
Razia, Boros Archangel
Reya Dawnbringer
Tariel Reckoner of Souls
Twilight Shepherd
Victory's Herald
Demons (3)
Oni of Wild Places
Rakdos the Defiler
Rune-Scared Demon (was Plaguewind)
Dragons (13)
Ancient Hellkite
Bladewing the Risen
Bogarden Hellkite
Flameblast Dragon
Horde Smelter Dragon
Knollspine Dragon
Mana Charged Dragon
Mordant Dragon
Oros the Avenger
Scourge of Kher Ridges
Steel Hellkite
Thunder Dragon
Yosei, the Morning Star
Utility Creatures (2)
Kiki Jiki Mirror Breaker
Mother of Runes
Stoneforge Mystic
Utility Enchantments (3)
Debtor's Knell
Luminarch Ascension
Oblivion Ring
I know you're building your deck with different criteria than mine, but I feel like I only need one lifelinker (if that) for my group. I'm not worried about casting my creatures, and even if I was, Victory's Herald only costs more than Baneslayer Angel. I'd also rather have guys that do stuff than guys who just hit for damage.
Yeah, I cut Malfegor too. It cost me one game, but it was a weird, fluke situation. I didn't even think about the repercussions from him getting Bribery'd. That makes me feel even better about the decision.
@Kirika
I like a couple of things about this list. Liliana Vess deserves consideration, especially if Insidious Dreams is making the cut. Necropotence seems too good not to run, although could be difficult. Debtors' Knell is a card I've wanted to run for a while that I should probably find room for. Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion is a card I've seen in a lot of lists that I could probably make room for in the mana base. I'm just leery of running too many ETB tapped and colorless lands.
Isn't baneslayer angel also a liability with an opposing bribery? Also, there's a new card rumored in the next block named Bloodgift Demon. It's not that much of a bomb, but it has useful card advantage.
If you look at most of the Kaalia lists they are really pretty 'Angel heavy', most of the good Demons are in there because they have an ability that opens them up to unique plays, like Kaalia + Oni of Wild Places + Rakdos, or Oni of Wild Places + Knollspine Dragon (see the OP for a list of synergies, most of them are to do with bouncing a Demon primarily, as opposed to constantly sending it into the red zone). So yeah, it might kind of suck to get your Baneslayer Bribery'd, but really, it's never great to get *anything* Bribery'd. Baneslayer I could play around; Malfegor proved himself to be a huge setback.
Maybe the answer is to dick with the opponent's library. I do run one copy of Hide//Seek... heh. "EOT, Seek you? Bribery? Cool?" "wtf"
Also, Bloodgift Demon seems like a flying Confidant with way less drawback. Definite possibility in my book.
Last edited by TsumiBand; 07-09-2011 at 11:03 AM. Reason: didn't finish. i'm so jumpy
Good point about Baneslayer Angel. I'm currently running 13 dragons and three demons, so I'd hate to get that taken out of my deck. First strike also invalidates a lot of creatures we run.
Bloodgift Demon is absolutely a bomb. Phyrexian Arena for zero mana (with Kaalia) that attacks for 4 every turn? I'd run 10 if I could.
I'd run Stranglehold before I'd run Hide // Seek if I wanted a Bribery hoser.
Bloodgift Demon is definitely going in my list. I can think of half a dozen cards he's better than off the top of my head.
You guys are seriously undervaluing Bloodgift Demon. He's the easiest auto-include since Rune-Scarred Demon.
I guess I didn't grok the interaction between Stranglehold and Bribery before, but really most of the time Stranglehold seems bad unless you're playing against a tutor-heavy deck (like um, this one, heh). Hide // Seek was sort of a 'joke answer' to the situation described above; however, it seems to do two things which are good in EDH; (a) tucks things (puts them on the bottom of the library) (b) exiles an opponent's single copy of some horrible thing.
I mean I could be the total noob here and just rocking some terribad card that doesn't do anything (an option that I'm always open to, heh), but it seems to me Hide // Seek is never dead, at worst it will do something dumb like tuck an opponent's Lightning Greaves / Debtor's Knoll / problem enchantment / etc, and it will always be good for removing a problem card from an opponent's deck. But really, I think the right answer to "Bribery your Malfegor" is probably just, "Don't run stupid Malfegor".
Also @ Baneslayer being a liability; I don't think the Angel : Demon-and-Dragon ratio is high enough to where an opponent somehow possessing our Baneslayer Angel actually throws the game for us. I run a Baneslayer, and every time an opponent had the opportunity to Bribery something away from me they always did something that mitigated a threat (Angel of Despair) or just gave them raw card advantage (Malfe-goddamn-gor). Getting your Baneslayer stolen doesn't just lose you the game right there; getting blown out by your own personal Plague Wind probably does. Especially since most of the good Demon/Dragons are going to be at their best when being abused with Kiki-Jiki or Oni of Wild Places, I don't think the threat of a stolen Baneslayer Angel outweighs the benefits of playing her.
Seek is -1 card advantage. However, Strangehold turns off the opponent's fetch, tutors, and other random things like Birbery. Besides, once you actually resolve seek, is bribery really the most valuable card to get? Edit: If it is, then might as well run both seek and stranglehold.
Look, heh, like I said, Hide // Seek was sort of a 'lol not really' response to Bribery. I was just mentioning that I ran it, I had gathered from various trips around the Internet that 'tuck spells' were useful in this format. Seems like Extracting is okay when everything's a one-of; I can submit to the idea that it's card disadvantage, even in a deck that plays quite a lot of draw spells and is about to get a huge gift in Bloodgift Demon.
I think the truth of the matter is, my personal build is still too close to the pre-con and I need to add the good Black tutors, which is just a money issue for me right now. I'm actually writing my letter to my former employer right now, "Deeeeear FdEx - plz give me a new rout suun becuz my EDH deks are terribad and my card sleeves r old as god hisself. also my mortgage mite defalt, omglol. yrs truly, tsumi"
One other card I've been liking, which actually was in the pre-con is Duregar Hedge-Mage. Sort of like a weird Hull Breach with a body.
Most good EDH decks are tutor heavy, especially when you count fetchlands. Survival of the Fittest is also one of the best cards in EDH. Stranglehold's usefulness is really going to depend on your playgroup. I wouldn't run it if you're only worried about being Bribery'd. Getting targeted by Bribery sucks, but without Malfegor it shouldn't be game over.
Oh, Hide // Seek is a good card for sure. Tuck effects are good, but it's the counterspells like Hinder and Spell Crumple, or creature removal like Oblation and Chaos Warp that are really good since they deal with generals.
The Seek half is pretty weak, as removing potential threats instead of actual threats rarely impacts a game. This is why Millstone, Extract, and Extirpate are bad cards.
Hide // Seek may be good, but I doubt it's in the best 64 or so cards we could be running.
Here are the creatures in my list who aren't invalidated in combat by Baneslayer Angel
Iona, Shield of Emeria
Admonition Angel
Angel of Despair
Rakdos the Defiler
Chancellor of the Annex
Angelic Arbiter
Archangel of Strife
Deathless Angel
Razia, Boros Archangel
That means Baneslayer Angel is invalidating 2/3 of my creatures against its controller including Kaalia of the Vast. If your opponents are taking Angel of Despair they're doing it wrong unless you're comboing them with Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker or Rakdos the Defilier, etc.
What are the benefits of playing Baneslayer Angel? She's not the biggest beater, and you don't really need the life. Kaalia of the Vast is one of the most aggro decks in EDH. Zoo, Goblins, and Merfolk don't run lifegain because they put their opponents on the defensive from the start of the game. Kaalia is EDH's "Goblins" deck.
Was playing my Godo deck the other day and I cast Insurrection FTW. Maybe insurrection is worth including in Kaalia? It is kinda expensive but it can win the game if successfully cast.
Insurrection is a fantastic EDH card, but I don't think this is the deck for it. Eight mana is a ton, especially when you're trying to blow up all the lands. My opponents don't run a ton of creatures, and the ones they do run often get killed by Scourge of Kher Ridges, Admonition Angel, Oros, the Avenger, etc. Insurrection is the kind of card that's strong against this deck more so than it fits in our strategy.
Hi, just discovered your deck and i think it would be a blast to play. So couple questions ->. Have you considered adding Sneak Attack? Seems sweet here, especially when you haven't Kaalia available (tucked or costs too much to play again). Saw sweet combo for this deck: Brion Stoutarm + Sneak Attack?. RR = x combat damage + same amount from Brion. Yeah, Brion isn't dragon, angel or demon but seems sweet. That works well also with Kiki. Also you get life by same time.
Also what is your opinion about Sword of Light and Shadow? Have ability to protect Kaalia, reuse your died creatures and get life seems good to me. It's also tutorable via Stoneforge and Steelshaper's Gift. Protecting kaalia from getting tucked by Condemn looks fine.
Oh well, got some other questions too, but they will follow when i get your opinion about these :)
I think Brion + Sneak Attack is probably another deck in the making, tbh.
I mean, if the goal of the deck is to have a protected Kaalia with a couple beaters in play and a couple more in hand and then Geddon away people's tempo, I think Sneak Attack just robs us of what would have been board position. Also there's a couple guys like Rakdos who we don't really want to have to activate their "when this attacks" ability, and Kaalia cheats around that. There's also a *lot* of dudes you want to hold onto and use many turns, like Aegis Angel, Steel Hellkite, just to name two off the top of my head while I'm practically out the door :P :P
I like the idea of Brion + Sneak Attack though. I'm betting a deck exists which uses that combo - if not there should be, it seems pretty okay.
Insurrection is great because it helps you if you're losing. If someone else "goes off" and gets a bunch of stuff in play, you can alpha strike him. Also, if you have some kind of sacrifice outlet similar to Fallen Angel, you can make sure that no one gets their creatures back.
Sword of Light and Shadow would be pretty good. It doesn't protect Kaalia of the Vast as well as Lightning Greaves and Swiftfoot Boots, but it does allow for getting back some dead creatures. I'll see if I can fit it in. As for Sneak Attack/Brion Stoutarm, this isn't the deck for that. I'd rather just cast my guys and keep them around. If you play one vs. one EDH, Sneak Attack might be worth it, but in multiplayer you need the staying power.
EDIT:
- Moat
+ Boom // Bust
This deck is too aggro to need Moat. Mass land destruction is too good in this deck, so I added the next best one in Boom // Bust.
I'm starting to realize that this deck can't easily win a competitive multiplayer game without blowing up all lands at some point. To that end:
- Victory's Herald
- Angelic Arbiter
- Yawgmoth's Will
+ Impending Disaster
+ Catastrophe
+ Cataclysm
I've yet to cast a meaningful Yawgmoth's Will, since my opponents or I are usually dead well before I have the mana. There's also not a lot to cast out of the graveyard when your spells cost 6-8 mana.
Cataclysm seems like a bad idea, but if cast the turn Kaalia of the Vast is active it shouldn't hurt you at all. Even if you have to sacrifice a creature or two, you'll likely still be in better shape than your opponents.
EDIT:
- Bladewing the Risen
+ Liliana Vess
Bladewing was widely regarded as one of the weakest creatures in the deck. Liliana Vess is awesome.
Found this little gem:
Thoughts of Ruin
It definitely needs to be in the 99 somewhere, but I'm not sure what to cut. I could replace one of the lesser 'geddons like Impending Disaster, Boom / Bust, Catastrophe, or Cataclysm, but I think we need as many 'geddon effects as possible. I don't really want to cut an angel, demon, or dragon either because I want consistency once I have an active Kaalia of the Vast.
What do you guys think? What should be cut for Thoughts of Ruin? A non-cheatable creature, non 'geddon card would be best, but I'll take any and all suggestions.
Not sure if you're still running these because I used your original list, but they are the most cuttable cards in my opinion:
Tariel, Reckoner of Souls - cool but it relies on the opponents having stuff and it's random. More often, Reya probably gets better creatures into play.
Chancellor of the Annex - underwhelming ability relative to other bombs.
Hellkite Charger - ability costs too much mana given that you want to destroy all lands.
If you don't want to cut creatures, here are some of the other weak cards:
Gamble - worse than other tutors.
Insidious Dreams - relatively more expensive/risky than other tutors.
Oblivion Ring - card is overplayed, it just gives them a target for their enchantment removal. It could be return to dust or vindicate which actually kill things permanently. Or you could just rely on angel of despair. Unless your meta has a lot of graveyard recursion, exiling something doesn't matter that much, and there are better solutions to this, such as withered wretch.
Lightning Greaves - already have swiftfoot boots and tons of tutors to find it.
You could also try running blood moon/magus yourself since you say you can play around it. It definitely messes up a lot of other people's decks more than it does yours. It complements the land destruction in a way (my Intet deck only has 4 basics and if they get blown up then I could be in trouble).
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