Everytime I change the deck I edit the opening post. The list on the front page is my current one.
First off, thanks for taking the time to respond with well-thought out suggestions.
These, along with Yosei, the Morning Star are among the weakest creatures in the deck. Tariel and Yosei likely won't make it past Innistrad as one of them is going for Bloodgift Demon at a minimum.
Diabolic Tutor is the worst tutor in the deck and probably the first one I'd cut. Gamble has been really good for me.
True, but there's also way more upside. It may turn out not to be worth it, but I'm not ready to cut this one yet.
You're probably right that Oblivion Ring should be Vindicate. I keep thinking of a game where I won because I could O-Ring Blightsteel Colossus and that's probably skewing my opinion. I also like that you can get Oblivion Ring with Enlightened Tutor. I like having a piece of tutorable removal, but this is a good candidate to be cut.
I can't possibly cut this. It's better than Swiftfoot Boots. That one mana makes a huge difference.
In general, you're absolutely right. My playgroup has way too many basics right now, though I highly recommend Moon effects to anyone running Kaalia.
I'm probably going to cut one of Yosei, the Morning Star, Tariel, Reckoner of Souls, or Oblivion Ring. More on this later.
Likely Innistrad changes:
- Oblivion Ring
- Yosei, the Morning Star
- Tariel, Reckoner of Souls
- Windbrisk Heights
- Tainted Field
+ Thoughts of Ruin
+ Bloodgift Demon
+ Reaper from the Abyss
+ Clifftop Retreat (W/R M10 Dual)
+ Isolated Chapel (W/B M10 Dual)
This guy looks nice, as well.
Yeah, Balefire Dragon is definitely going in. I'll probably cut Hellkite Charger, Vampiric Dragon, Razia, Boros Archangel, or Knollspine Dragon.
I'm not sure which one to cut though.
Hellkite Charger has bad synergy with all the land destruction. However, if you can activate his ability it's easy to deal 20+ damage the first time and even more the second time.
Vampiric Dragon is nice for picking off guys, but he needs mana to do it and Balefire Dragon hits everything for free.
I've never activated Razia, Boros Archangel's ability. Vigilance and haste have never been relevant either.
Knollspine Dragon draws you a sickening amount of cards, but he's kind of win-more and can't be put in off Kaalia without Hellkite Charger. You need an active Kaalia for him to be good, but if you have active Kaalia, you're probably winning. He's also bad with all the land destruction, but he's potentially amazing with Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker.
It's looking like Razia, Boros Archangel is the cut, but I'm open to other suggestions.
So I was forced into building a Commander deck through various peer pressure and threats from my play group (after years of holding out).
Kaalia is the first general that I chose (the maiden voyage of my first iteration got a T4 table scoop!).
Looking through forums to see what other people have been playing, I see Kuma has already built a deck as well!
Anyways, a couple questions:
1) Are you playing Stoneforge just to tutor for Boots/Greaves?
2) If you're playing Hellkite Charger, why not throw Sword of Feast and Famine in with it? Generally speaking, if you can get an attack in with a Hellkite equipped with the Sword, that should be game over (since you're pretty much generating infinite attack phases).
3) I haven't really liked Charger and Flameblast Dragon because they don't do anything until your next attack step (I tend to like creatures that affect the board immediately).
4) Have you considered Grand Abolisher as additional protection? With him around, you can safely cast Khalia and get a pair of boots on her without any worries.
So I was forced into building a Commander deck through various peer pressure and threats from my play group (after years of holding out).
Kaalia is the first general that I chose (the maiden voyage of my first iteration got a T4 table scoop!).
Looking through forums to see what other people have been playing, I see Kuma has already built a deck as well!
Anyways, a couple questions:
1) Are you playing Stoneforge just to tutor for Boots/Greaves?
2) If you're playing Hellkite Charger, why not throw Sword of Feast and Famine in with it? Generally speaking, if you can get an attack in with a Hellkite equipped with the Sword, that should be game over (since you're pretty much generating infinite attack phases).
3) I haven't really liked Charger and Flameblast Dragon because they don't do anything until your next attack step (I tend to like creatures that affect the board immediately).
4) Have you considered Grand Abolisher as additional protection? With him around, you can safely cast Khalia and get a pair of boots on her without any worries.
1) Are you playing Stoneforge just to tutor for Boots/Greaves?
The equipment are important for the deck. You really need to keep the general alive in order to function properly. Also, you have the option of moving it to a fatty later, which is quite strong.
2) If you're playing Hellkite Charger, why not throw Sword of Feast and Famine in with it?
Probably going to remove hellkite charger because the whole point of the deck is to sneak fatties in without having the land to play them. It's difficult to have enough to activate the charger, so the sword doesn't help any.
3) I haven't really liked Charger and Flameblast Dragon because they don't do anything until your next attack step (I tend to like creatures that affect the board immediately).
Flameburst is rather weak, but it serves a specific utility. You can tutor for it if you need to spot remove things, otherwise it's just another random fatty that you might have in your hand to play for free when you connect with the general.
4) Have you considered Grand Abolisher as additional protection? With him around, you can safely cast Khalia and get a pair of boots on her without any worries.[/QUOTE]
It's ok, but it's hard to tutor for the abolisher and boots and still cast kaalia on turn 3 or 4. If you can cast kaalia on turn 3, you dodge almost half the counterspells anyway (assuming half your opponents are still on 2 land, half are on 3 land, and that most counterspells cost 3 mana). Also, it's much easier to tutor for equipment than it is to tutor for the abolisher. If you could only have one, I think the boots are better since you dodge spot removal, but it might depend on the meta.
Welcome to the club!
Pretty much. Lightning Greaves and Swiftfoot Boots are incredibly important to the strategy because it's really hard to keep a Kaalia on the table when your opponents know what your deck can do. They also speed the deck up a turn with haste. I often use even my better tutors to get Lightning Greaves because it's just that important.
Hellkite Charger is already on the verge of being cut because seven mana is a ton for this deck. I think the better strategy is to get Kaalia active and then blow up all lands. If your group forbids land destruction, Hellkite Charger (and Knollspine Dragon) are much better cards. The problem with Sword of Feast and Famine is that you need to have an equipped Charger plus seven mana to go infinite, and that's a tall order. I'm usually not casting my angels, demons, and dragons, which makes having the extra mana mostly irrelevant.
Yeah, Charger and Flameblast Dragon are two of the weaker creatures still in the deck. They'd be gone if I could find anything better. They'd be gone already except Yosei, the Morning Star, Tariel, Reckoner of Souls, and Bladewing the Risen are worse.
Malchar got it right when he said that it's hard to tutor for Lightning Greaves and Grand Abolisher and still cast Kaalia turn three or four. It can be awkward just tutoring for the boots if you're relying on a Signet for acceleration. I like the idea, but if I'm tutoring for something to protect Kaalia, it's going to be Lightning Greaves.
Yeah, I like the Khalia focused builds too. Do you pretty much give up on actually hard casting any of your fatties and try to power them out with only Khalia?
Hey, I would like to note that you deck construction is quite impressive, and wanted to offer a few changes that you might find interesting:
Your lands are mostly solid choices, however, I would recommend cutting Hall of the Bandit Lord and Bojuka bog as both come into play tapped, and Hall don't even offer you a color of mana. Obviously giving Kaalia haste is something that is quite advantageous, but this requires you also have the 3 colors required for her, plus you have to play Hall the turn or two turns before you play Kaalia, plus you have to pay three life. And once you have done all of this, Hall isn't going to be beneficial to anything else because you will be casting most all of your other creatures with Kaalia. As for Bojuka, exiling 1 players graveyard can be good, but, this doesn't help in the early game, it only works on one player, and its not worth a land coming into play tapped and only producing black mana.
My suggestion for replacements would be replacing those lands with Tainted Field and Kor Haven. Tainted Field produces two colors of mana. Kor Haven is awesome.
As for artifact acceleration, I would suggest you stay close to artifacts that cost two mana or less so you can play Kaalia on turn 3 more often. This being the case, I would recommend removing Coalition Relic from the deck. Naturally it is a great card, but replacing it with a 2 drop artifact that can produce mana would enable you to cast Kaalia on turn two more often.
My suggestion: Marble Diamond
Lastly, I think there are a couple of creatures that shouldn't be in the deck; mainly Vampiric Dragon and Hellkite Charge. Both would normally be good in this deck, however, with the addition of land destruction, these cards will become of little to no use to you. These plus others including Flameblast Dragon, Hoard-smelter Dragon, and Scourge of Kher ridges require a lot of mana to utilize. Whereas they do give you great card advantage, their abilities don't have great synergy with land destruction.
My suggestion; The stars from Kamigawa are quite powerful cards, and I believe you used to run the Yosei, Xathrid Demon, Reya combo. I would recommend that you remove some of the creatures with heavy mana cost abilities and replace them with Xathrid Demon, Yosei, the Morning Star, Ryusei, the Falling Star, and/or Kokusho, the Evening Star. Running these with Reya will give you incredible field advantage, and you can easily tutor out the combo.
If you think the Stars are too slow or just not powerful enough on their own, you could even run better angels/demons/dragons that have non-mana reliant abilities. Ex. Dragon Mage, Angelic Arbiter, Victory's Herald, Kilnmouth Dragon, or some other cards.
Hope this helps.
"Well? Lowly pawn, has your vaunted blade altered fate's course? Your own obliteration---that is the greatest change you can ever hope to accomplish in this world. Now surrender to the inexorable grasp of deepest, darkest pandemonium, and lose yourself to oblivion!" - Chaos (FFDissidia012)
You're right about Bojuka Bog. In a deck this aggressive, it isn't worth entering the battlefield tapped to be able to remove someone's graveyard. I have a love/hate relationship with Hall of the Bandit Lord. It's absolutely crucial for this deck to be swinging with Kaalia of the Vast on turn three or four, even at the cost of nine or more life. The problem is, you have to play Hall of the Bandit Lord turn one or the ETB tapped screws you. It has been in and out of the deck several times. The fact it isn't useful for casting my other creatures isn't really relevant because I plan to blow up all the lands instead of casting my guys.
Hall of the Bandit Lord probably won't last in the deck long term, but I think I'm going to keep it for now. Bojuka Bog needs to be something else.
I absolutely hate Tainted Peak and Tainted Field in this deck. I usually only have one or two swamps out, and often I don't have any, especially post Armageddon. That said, Tainted Field is the best of bad options, and I'll probably keep it for now only because Bojuka Bog is worse.
Kor Haven doesn't fit with what this deck is trying to do. I want to play offense not defense. I'd run Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion first.
You're absolutely right about this, and it's something I've been meaning to do. I want to redo the mana base to focus on two-drop mana rocks, possibly cutting a land or two in the process. I'll post the changes when I've had time to think about them.
Vampiric Dragon, Hellkite Charger, and Flameblast Dragon are some of the weakest creatures in the deck for sure, largely because they're terrible with the land destruction. These guys will likely be the first to leave when new creatures get printed.
I hope I haven't been giving the illusion that I'm always blowing up all the lands. In most games, that doesn't happen. It's more important to get Kaalia swinging, and I'm usually using my limited tutors to get Lightning Greaves/Rakdos the Defiler. Other times I can't get Kaalia active at all, and it's a desperate move to blow up all lands without an active Kaalia. I've also had multiple land destruction cards get countered in a single game.
I want land destruction to be plan A, but I also don't want to be a slave to it. Hoard-Smelter Dragon and Scourge of Kher Ridges are fantastic cards if I'm not blowing up all the lands. Scourge is probably a top-five creature in the deck, certainly no lower than top ten.
I don't think the Kamigawa dragons are better than my mana-intensive ones. When I ran Yosei, the Morning Star, he died exactly once. The Yosei, Xathrid Demon, Reya Dawnbringer combo was janky, and I never set it up. Xathrid Demon is terrible outside of the combo, too. It was much easier to get Rakdos the Defiler/Oni of Wild Places, and I think it's a better combo.
I can't easily tutor out the combo. I only run 13 tutors. I'm likely spending one to get Lightning Greaves, which doesn't leave me much to get those combo pieces. I could probably set it up with Rune-Scarred Demon/Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker, but I could probably do better things faster.
You didn't realize, probably because it defies all logical sense, that Kokusho, the Evening Star is banned in EDH.
I've ran every card on this list at some point except Kilnmouth Dragon. I've found them all lacking. I don't want to refill my opponents hands with Dragon Mage. Then again, people like to sculpt their hands in EDH and I've seen Wheel of Fortune wreck people's days. I'll take Dragon Mage under consideration.
Angelic Arbiter is the kind of card we want to be running: a creature with a controlling effect. It looks amazing when you read it. It does nothing once it's on the battlefield.
Victory's Herald doesn't fit for the same reasons Kor Haven doesn't. It's a defensive card in an offensive deck. If it worked the turn it gets put on the battlefield with Kaalia, I'd probably run it. As is, it's too slow even to be a silver bullet.
I don't think I run enough dragons for Kilnmouth Dragon.
It did. Thank you.
So I've been playing only this deck since the last time I've posted and have some thoughts on some cards I've liked/disliked. I'm doing a very similar build to yours, Kuma - pretty much try and power out a fast Kaalia as fast as possible with Greaves/Boots or some sort of haste effect.
I went with more 2 drop accelerants as well and more importantly, ones that generate colored mana. For me, the goal is to have 1WBR on T3 or to have 3WBR on T4 (letting you cast Greaves + Kaalia).
I am currently running Grim Monolith and Mana Vault but sadly, I'm starting to become less happy with them since I simply can't use all that colorless mana early game and mid-late game, they're generally stuck tapped so I can't even use them to replay Kaalia.
I've liked Coalition Relic even though it costs 3 because for our 3 color general, it allowing you to get 2 separate colors of mana is fairly crucial.
2 Drop Accelerants I've liked:
Pentad Prism
Sphere of the Suns
Sure they have charge counters, but they get you whatever colored mana you need. Prismatic Lens has been alright as well, letting you filter mana from Mana Crypt / Sol Ring into useful colored mana.
Fatties to drop:
Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon: I have a love/hate relationship with Skithiryx. On one hand, he's just so damn cool looking. On the other hand, he takes 3 turns to kill someone. However, he has been useful for me when I've had to take out multiple players at once (I have Skithiryx single handedly killing someone while Kaalia and the rest of the team go at another guy).
Scourge of Kher Ridges: Amazing, simply amazing. Hilarious against people who run X/2 generals as well.
Eternal Dragon: He's been pretty solid for me. Plainscycles to whatever dual land I need or drops to be another stupid beater.
Sunblast Angel: Obviously, doesn't play nice with Kaalia's ability, but surprisingly good for just playing pre-combat.
Malfegor: Sometimes, you just have to Edict the hell out of your opponents. Great one to drop when you're out of fatties and you're stuck with acceleration and lands in your hand.
Other Cards
Erratic Portal: I've been playing this instead of Oni of Wild Places since it's been pretty useful for recurring other guys like Angel of Despair and Twilight Shepherd. I also play Bogarden Hellkite as well.
Fervor: Another haste effect that's good if you're on the T4 Kaalia plan. Also works nicely with Mother of Runes. On a side note, I've really liked Hall of the Bandit Lord as well.
I'm really looking forward to the Innistrad guys since I really want more guys that do things other than just attack. I'm running both Akromas, Razia, and Skithiryx right now who I'd love to replace with guys who are more suppressive on opponents.
Those are good choices. Since I'm reworking my mana base, I'd love to see your mana base, or even your entire list.
Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon seems like he could be useful. I like the idea of sending him after one player while you hit someone else with regular damage. I think I'm going to give him a shot.
Eternal Dragon is an interesting call, but I'm not sure his ability to find mana makes up for him being just a big, stupid beater.
Malfegor has his uses, but the reason I cut him was that often I didn't want to put him on the battlefield at the cost of my hand and my opponents would Bribery him out of my deck to great effect.
I never thought to use Erratic Portal in here. I don't know if I'd replace Oni of Wild Places with it, but I'll see about including it somewhere.
I used to run this, but it got cut to up the creature count. I did like the card though.
Need for speed might also be useful for anyone looking for an alternative haste source. Presumably, sacrificing land is mitigated by the fact that you're probably going to be able to destroy them all anyway.
Need for Speed looks interesting! I'll definitely give it a shot if I think I need more haste effects.
I made some changes again after playing this weekend - I decided I really need to disrupt my opponents a little more. My meta is completely covered with fast / disruptive combo (me and the Godo guy are actually probably the slowest decks) like Oonas, Sharuum, Zur, and Arcuum (you'll see some maindeck choices I have purely for my meta).
The UW decks have been also really annoying for me to battle since they either counter Kaalia or StP/Path her when I attack or try and equip her, so I have more protection I want to run.
Here's my current list I'm messing with that I'll try out this week. I also don't have an Imperial Seal or Grim Tutor, so those aren't in my list (but the should be if I had them):
Lands (35)
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Wasteland
Strip Mine
Hall of the Bandit Lord
Volrath's Stronghold
Spinerock Knoll
Command Tower
City of Brass
Polluted Delta
Scalding Tarn
Arid Mesa
Windswept Heath
Flooded Strand
Marsh Flats
Wooded Foothills
Bloodstained Mire
Verdant Catacombs
Caves of Koilos
Scrubland
Fetid Heath
Godless Shrine
Isolated Chapel
Rugged Prairie
Battlefield Forge
Clifftop Retreat
Plateau
Sacred Foundry
Graven Cairns
Sulfurous Springs
Badlands
Blood Crypt
Dragonskull Summit
Plains
Swamp
The basics are for Blood Moons and Path to Exiles that fly around in my meta.
Artifact Acceleration (10)
Sphere of the Suns
Coalition Relic
Talisman of Indulgence
Rakdos Signet
Boros Signet
Orzhov Signet
Prismatic Lens
Pentad Prism
Mana Crypt
Sol Ring
Disruption / Land Destruction (11)
Shattering Spree (there is a ridiculous amount of artifacts in my meta)
Swords to Plowshares
Vindicate
Oblivion Ring
Boom / Bust
Cataclysm
Path to Exile
Strangehold (this card is amazing vs so many generals that are popular in my meta - Godo, Zur, Arcuum, even Shruum and Oona tend to have a lot of tutors)
Armageddon
Austure Command (I feel this card is too powerful and versatile in multiplayer not to run)
Catastrophe
I really want to fit a Mortify in here somewhere. Too many times I wish I had an EoT instant speed answer to Necropotence!
Tutors (8)
Stoneforge Mystic
Diabolic Tutor
Liliana Vess
Shred Memory
Enlightened Tutor
Vampiric Tutor
Steelshaper's Gift
Demonic Tutor
Protection / Haste (7)
Grand Abolisher (This guy has been good for me for slow rolling Kaalia + Greeves on the same turn. He also tends to be too shitty for people to waste their removal on.)
Mother of Runes
Silence
Orim's Chant
Lightning Greeves
Swiftfoot Boots
Fervor
I want to give Silence / Chant a try because when you're setting up for a Hasty Kaalia, it's pretty obvious to the rest of the board so someone just holds their countermagic or removal and hurp derp rapes you when you go for it. I'm stealing a book from the TES guys and saying "fuck you, you can't cast spells and I go off!" :D Since I'm not using Scepter, I think Silence is actually much stronger than Chant here.
I'd also like to try something like a Mind Twist to fuck up a blue player's hand before going off.
Misc (3)
Crucible of Worlds (Helps to recover from your own LD. Of course it's nasty as hell with Waste/Strip lock)
Erratic Portal (Bounce Rakdos, Angel of Despair, Rune-Scarred Demon, for fun and hilarity! Also actually protects your guys and messes with your opponents (makes it so they always have to leave 2 mana up to protect their general as you can EOT bounce their guy, then bounce again on your turn if they leave only 1 mana open)
Phyrexian Arena
I have very little actual card draw in my version. I kinda want to play Promise of Power just because it's so thematic to our deck :)
The Good (11)
Iona, Shield of Emeria
Adarkar Valkyrie
Angel of Despair
Sunblast Angel
Desolation Angel (Yeah this isn't very good, but it's my second favorite MTG card in the game, so I had to include her in here. Plus, she did get my T4 table scoop in the very first incarnation of this deck)
Platinum Angel
Reya Dawnbringer
Aegis Angel
Deathless Angel
Twilight Shepherd
Admonition Angel
The Bad (4)
Malfegor
Rune-Scarred Demon
Rakdos the Defiler
Bloodgift Demon
I actually don't think I like Reaper from the Abyss because it's so uncontrollable if your opponents don't have creatures out. However, in a meta where there are more creature decks, I'd definitely run it.
The Ugly (10)
Hoard-Smelter Dragon
Scourge of Kher Ridges
Eternal Dragon
Mordant Dragon
Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon
Bogardan Hellkite
Oros, the Avenger
Steel Hellkite (This is hilarious to ETutor up)
Flameblast Dragon
Balefire Dragon
With running 11 dragons (including Malfegor), I'm almost tempted to run Bladewing, the Risen, but I hate it when you get him with nothing to recur.
As always, suggestions are welcome and appreciated!
Esper, you should play Zodiac Dragon just to further increase the price tag of your deck :P.
Decks that I care about:
Steel Stompy
UWx Landstill
Dreadstalker
DDFT (10% practice)
Mangara on MWS? You must be masochistic. -kiblast
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