Thanks for posting your list, Esper3k. If you want to keep updating it, I can link to it in the opening post.
A couple of things:
Why, why, why aren't you running Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker? Copying Rune-Scarred Demon, Angel of Despair, Bogardan Hellkite, etc. is insane.
I appreciate what you're trying to do with Crucible of Worlds, but Strip Mine lock has been terrible for me in multiplayer. Picking off lands after an Armageddon is overkill. Recovering your own lands after an Armageddon is usually unnecessary.
I think Coldsteel Heart, at least, is better than Prismatic Lens.
Pentad Prism is a really good idea. I'm going to try it and see if it's as good as it looks.
You've definitely given the deck a more controlling role than I have with cards like Stranglehold, Austere Command, Swords to Plowshares, and Path to Exile. Did you find straight aggro not to be fast enough to defeat your group? I'm starting to think my list isn't fast enough for my group, but my group is combo-centric and competitive as hell. Right now my group is running Experiment Kraj, Animar, Soul of Elements, and Sharuum the Hegemon.
Yeah I keep forgetting to put in Kiki-Jiki! I'll add him and give him a spin. I hadn't been liking Bogarden Hellkite as much, but with stuff like Erratic Portal and Kiki-Jiki, he may stay on the team.
Crucible may get cut again - I haven't been seeing it all that much. Needs more testing for me.
Prismatic Lens I liked when I had more colorless mana accelerants like Grim Monolith, so it had let me filter that extra colorless mana. You're probably right and isn't as needed now that I'm running more artifact mana that generates actual colored mana.
I feel I've had to slow things down and take a slightly more controlling role exactly because I haven't been fast enough. It's been pretty tough for me to stick Kaalia in the first place (she oftentimes gets countered or Plow/Pathed when I do actually land her, then try and get boots on her). Even when I do, I'm finding that she's simply not doing enough - I'll beat the crap out of someone, then they combo off and kill me. After my first attempt at Kaalia gets thwarted, I find myself lacking ways to stop others from winning, so I started fiddling around with a little more control.
Stranglehold is definitely something I'm playing just for our meta (our Godo player also main decks it as well as Boil) since we have so many blue / combo decks floating around. Zur and Arcuum pretty much can't win with it in play and it slows down Sharuum and Oona as well if you can get it out fast enough to stop their tutoring.
Sure, I'll keep updating that post with my list as I make changes!
Ever though of running Blackcleave cliffs?
"Well? Lowly pawn, has your vaunted blade altered fate's course? Your own obliteration---that is the greatest change you can ever hope to accomplish in this world. Now surrender to the inexorable grasp of deepest, darkest pandemonium, and lose yourself to oblivion!" - Chaos (FFDissidia012)
So I got a chance to play some more games over the past few weeks and here are some thoughts on some of the cards:
Grand Abolisher: It's been very good in most of the games I've played it in. If it eats removal, that's one less spot removal spell that can get Kaalia. Most of the time, especially in multiplayer, people have just left it alone because they are generally more worried about others. This means, you get to pretty much resolve everything for free. Today, I also happened to get off an Austere Command with him around and caught 2 Tops in it!
Silence / Orim's Chant: These have been hit or miss and need more testing. They've been pretty decent actually offensively time walking opponents on key turns, but it's been pretty tough to get them in hand + haste effect + shroud to protect Kaalia.
The instant speed removal has been pretty good - there's always a target to StP / PtE.
Stranglehold: Continues to be good, even against decks that don't have tutor generals. Pretty much the way I have been seeing the card is that: 1) Good Commander decks have lots of tutoring, so Stranglehold is amazing there. 2) You don't really have to worry much about bad Commander decks that don't have a lot of tutoring.
Esper3k, how many people do you usually play EDH with at a time? I usually play with two other people, sometimes three. When there are four of us, I have a really hard time winning, because it's so hard for this deck to kill three people before someone finds a sweeper. Having three opponents makes it easier for them to counter an Armageddon effect.
Is this why you took a more controlling approach? I thought about slowing the deck down a little to give it more resiliency, but since most of my games are with two opponents, I figured it wasn't worth it.
I'll have to try Grand Abolisher, Stranglehold and possibly Austere Command since they've been working out so well for you.
The games I play vary since at the store I play at, there will probably be about a pool of around 4-6 other players who have an EDH deck with them at any given time.
A lot of times during our Legacy tournaments, people will be EDH dueling in between rounds to kill time while waiting for other matches to finish.
Generally though, I'd say the average for us is 3-5 players. At 6, things start to get a little bit slow and bogged down (even at 5 you start to see this, I think), from my experience.
Yeah, I took a more controlling approach exactly because with so many people around, I tend to have a really hard time sticking Kaalia + getting to attack with her (ie, you need to have a Haste effect plus dodge countermagic + dodge pinpoint removal). If I run her out on T3, she's pretty much guaranteed to die or get countered.
For me, in the larger games, opposing sweepers haven't been too much of an issue since in our meta, they just aren't that popular. Most of the decks in our meta are more combo oriented, so a lot of the large scale control elements are usually cut for cheap spot removal or countermagic, so generally I'm the one playing the most sweepers, or if there's someone else running them, they're the first guy I gun after. If I can hold off on playing Kaalia for a turn or so, I can usually get in a few swings with her and get to 6 mana, so I can replay / attack with her immediately after a sweeper.
- Phyrexian Arena
- Insidious Dreams
- Liliana Vess
- Ambition's Cost
+ Thoughtseize
+ Duress
+ Inquisition of Kozilek
+ Benevolent Bodyguard
This deck really, really needs to protect Kaalia of the Vast. It also needs to do more on turn one. I'm avoiding Silence and Orim's Chant for now because the deck doesn't need to be any slower.
Dark Ascension changes:
- Hellkite Charger
- Flameblast Dragon
- Vampiric Dragon
+ Moonveil Dragon
+ Linvala, Keeper of Silence
+ Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon
Hellkite Charger almost never got activated with all the mass land destruction. Not once did I ever use Flameblast Dragon's Blaze ability. Vampiric Dragon was the worst of the creature killers.
Moonveil Dragon should lead to lots of extra damage, even if most of my mana is destroyed. Linvala, Keeper of Silence shuts off so many ridiculous strategies that I can't believe I wasn't running her already. Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon should let me kill a player with poison counters while I'm killing another with damage.
I'm also thinking about running Village Bell-Ringer and possibly Splinter Twin to give the deck a combo finish in case the Kaalia of the Vast plan doesn't work out. I'm also considering Kormus Bell, due to its ability to lock out my opponents from using their lands along with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and Linvala, Keeper of Silence. Balefire Dragon would also be able to destroy all of a player's lands, and Oros, the Avenger, and Scourge of Kher Ridges would function as mass land destruction.
Thoughts?
been checking this deck out for awhile now and actually built my own from a lot of the ideas here - mainly from yours, kuma. a big thank you. it's lot of fun.
i'm not sure i understand how balefire, oros, and scourge help in land destruction....i think i'm missing something.
also, how do you feel about increasing ambition? too expensive or a tutor?
If all lands are 1/1 black creatures thanks to Kormus Bell and Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, all of those dragons will be able to kill the opponent's land-creatures.
ahhh...duh....maybe if i had read the entire card. thanks.
plus, post should have said "how do you feel about increasing ambition? too expensive FOR a tutor?"
Yeah, Increasing Ambition is too expensive for a tutor, at least in this deck. You usually want to tutor to help set up an active Kaalia of the Vast, and Increasing Ambition is too slow for that.
You should DEFINITELY run Avacyn, Angel of Hope when she is released.
"Well? Lowly pawn, has your vaunted blade altered fate's course? Your own obliteration---that is the greatest change you can ever hope to accomplish in this world. Now surrender to the inexorable grasp of deepest, darkest pandemonium, and lose yourself to oblivion!" - Chaos (FFDissidia012)
Throw some boots on this chick and blow up everyone else's world with Geddon/Vengeance/Wrath/etc etc etc. Seems real good.
Yeah, Avacyn, Angel of Hope is definitely going in. At the very least, she's better than Aegis Angel.
Might want to keep using aegis angel though in addition to Avacyn, since she protects kaalia while still being a 5/5 flier. It already does everything you want to do, and Avacyn is just another copy of it which is even better.
I will probably keep using Aegis Angel. I was just saying that if I can't find anything else to cut (although I probably will find something else), I can just upgrade the Aegis Angel slot with Avacyn, Angel of Hope.
Honestly though, Aegis Angel hasn't been that great for me given that I almost always have Lightning Greaves or Swiftfoot Boots on Kaalia of the Vast. I don't think there's been a single game where its ability has been relevant. I doubt that will be true of Avacyn, Angel of Hope.
Speaking anecdotally, I did keep a Stranglehold in play for longer than I should have done with Aegis Angel, but Avacyn would've done the same thing, plus you know, everything else too.
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