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Thread: [archetype discussion] MUD

  1. #1
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    [archetype discussion] MUD

    Alright, remember when Mental Misstep got spoiled? A lot of people speculated that decks built around the Sol Lands (Ancient Tomb, City of Traitors, and Crystal Vein to an extent) would be propelled to least tier1.5.

    Its been more than a month and we've yet to see any significant results. Is it because people are more prepared to these kinds of decks (and they're in between the crossfire of Affinity and Affinity-hate?), people just don't bother testing with these decks or these decks are just a one hit wonder (see Michael Bomholt's performance with Kuldotha Stompy at SCG Open in Indianapolis)

    Also, what is the proper way to build a MUD deck with the current meta? Would a Stompy version be fast enough to race aggro decks (and effectively stopping control and combo dead to its tracks) or would a Stax version be controlling enough to lock whatever decks it faces.

    The archetypes recently got a lot of boost, from the unbanned Metalworker and Grim Monolith to the goodies from Scars of Mirrodin such as Wurmcoil Engine, Steel Hellkite and Kuldotha Forgemaster. But why aren't anyone delving around this archetype? Does it need a pro to indorse the deck (like what happened to Stoneblade archetypes)? Didn't Ali Antrazi do a good job in piloting (and indorsing) this archetype? Granted he did change to a Turbo-land archetype.

    Discuss...
    I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle View Post
    13NoVa plays Force of Will from his hand.
    Finglonger plays Spell Pierce from his hand.
    [10:22:43]  13NoVa: lol
    sure
    Finglonger points from his Dack Fayden to 13NoVa's Sol Ring.
    [10:23:04]  13NoVa: lol dumb ******; nice draws with retard.dec
    stupid cocksucker
    You have been kicked out of the game.

  2. #2
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    Re: [archetype discussion] MUD

    The deck has a lot of flaws, but i feel it has a fatal flaw that make it just never good enough in Legacy. There's no "universal" lock piece. Creatures being played and curves being more varied than vintage (if we exclude the fatty cheating) mean a sphere don't cut it against a nacatl. Lodestone usually don't even trade with Goyf. Trinisphere is nice but uncastable T1 and won't end the game like it do in Vintage. Your lock pieces being creatures are more often a liability than a bonus like they are in vintage since people play a lot of removal. And so on. The only truly fantastic prison piece in Legacy is CotV, but you can't cast it T1 on the play all the time.

    Short story long: Prison doesn't work in a format where all card types are played and where manabases aren't spells (moxen). The best "prison" pieces in this format are probably Huge creatures like Wurmcoil Engine. The only way Prison could work if they unbanned moxens. If they unbanned Workshop (not that they should), brown stompy would be viable before prison.

    I believe some kind of stompy variant to be viable, but why play them over standard affinity? What do you gain? Both deck have the same weaknesses: they fold hard to hate and they're inconsistent.

  3. #3
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    Re: [archetype discussion] MUD

    You get a manabase less susceptible to hate and no color issues (which is incidentally the number one stability concern with colored stompy decks). Granted it isn't hard to build Affinity to accomodate Chalice@1 MD but still. It has also become incrementally better since the unbanning of Metalworker, but unless something drastic is printed most people tend not to try out old things with slightly better new toys for the umpteeth time. Anyhow Buried Ruin from M12 just made it a teensy bit more stable again so there.

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    Re: [archetype discussion] MUD

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinitium View Post
    You get a manabase less susceptible to hate and no color issues (which is incidentally the number one stability concern with colored stompy decks). Granted it isn't hard to build Affinity to accomodate Chalice@1 MD but still. It has also become incrementally better since the unbanning of Metalworker, but unless something drastic is printed most people tend not to try out old things with slightly better new toys for the umpteeth time. Anyhow Buried Ruin from M12 just made it a teensy bit more stable again so there.
    Metalworker is slow (3 + untap) and easy to answer. You just increase your incosistency and your game losses from random lightning bolts in exchange for more explosive draws. Not sure that's worth it.

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    Re: [archetype discussion] MUD

    The way I see it is that an archetype can't be too succesfull when it loses completely to a single, resolved card like Null Rod or Energy Flux.
    Some of my friends sell records,
    some of my friends sell drugs.

  6. #6

    Re: [archetype discussion] MUD

    This is not true. Null Rod is a nuisance but still you can get a lot of mana from Stompy lands. It affects the Red MUD version much more than the colorless one. Kill Switch is far more game breaking. Anyway, if you play the Red Mud Version which is highly inconsistent it does not surprise me that it is not a DTB. I rather prefer a colorless MUD version which is more popular in Germany which has more Outs to situation like described (Karn, All is Dust). I have played both versions on tourneys a couple of times and although the Red MUD Version is more fun to play it is easier to hate. Regarding prison/stompy decks, I tried Mono Green Chalice Aggro, Faery Stomy and Angel Stompy because of MM. I actually played MGCA at a ~40 ppl tourney to a 3:3 result. The problem here is that GW Aggro and Merfolk decks - both DTB and quite frequently seen - are hard matchups. They do not care too much about your lock components especially if they go first. One Mother of Runes can wreck havoc against a monocolored deck. Same with Merfolk if the have a Aether Vial out. GW has plenty of artifact removal while Merfolk can counter early threads easily. Also matchups against UGb Landstill are rather negative.

    To sum it up. I think it was wrong of me to derive from a single card that is played (MM) that the metagame would be suited for Stompy Decks because they avoid this single card. You render max. 4 cards useless in a blue deck. But there are still 56 cards to deal with and G2 full 60 again.

  7. #7
    bruizar
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    Re: [archetype discussion] MUD

    Without actually posting deck lists, it´s hard to discuss the topic. Also, I think people are mixing terminology. I´m reading about lock pieces, but MUD is not STAX. If you are referring to a MUD list with lock pieces, please show the list.

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    Re: [archetype discussion] MUD

    Quote Originally Posted by bruizar View Post
    Without actually posting deck lists, it´s hard to discuss the topic. Also, I think people are mixing terminology. I´m reading about lock pieces, but MUD is not STAX. If you are referring to a MUD list with lock pieces, please show the list.

    I was actually trying to generalize MUD as any deck that are almost to all colorless and use the Sol Lands (Ancient Tomb, City of Traitors and to some extent Crystal Veins). I actually refer to the aggro version (such as the Kuldotha Forgemaster builds) as Stompy (MUD Stompy) and the lock version as Stax (MUD Staxx).

    Anyways, I was looking at TheCouncil at recent Vintage tournaments. I find that a lot of the Vintage MUD lists run the following:

    Landbase - Vintage MUD decks usually have 16-18 lands. The most common components are:

    Mishra's Workshop - This will never see legality in Legacy but you know what, a lot of Vintage lists don't run City of Traitors. They run Ancient Tomb in tandem to Workshops. I know City of Traitors is not Workshop but in tandem with Ancient Tomb (maybe along with Crystal Vein), it could play the part.

    Wasteland - Legacy legal, definitely a must have in the manabase

    Strip Mine - This card is not legal in Legacy, but you know what is: Rishadan Port. I believe Ports can play the part.

    Tolarian Academy - This card is also not legal in Legacy. The closest thing we have in Legacy is Gaea's Cradle. Is it worth the test in MUD builds? Maybe if the deck runs enough creatures (would 20 creatures enough to justify running Cradle?). Yes, Cradle cannot be as powerful as Academy in a MUD deck but a land that has a potential to produce a lot of mana won't hurt.

    Creatures - I noticed that Legacy MUD (the colorless German versions) and Vintage MUD lists run the same creature base, which are:

    Lodestone Golem - Ever since this card saw print, it has been a universal staple to Vintage MUD. There's no reason why not to run this in Legacy. Its disruption with legs that can take a chunk out of your opponent's life total.

    Metalworker - Its funny that some Vintage lists don't run it. Maybe it isn't as powerful as everyone assumed. It still can be a gamebreaker when left unchecked though I guess Metalworker isn't fast enough for Vintage. In Legacy however, its like a Goblin Lackey (and the best part is it dodges Mental Misstep

    Kuldotha Forgemaster and Wurmcoil Engine - While these are staples in the "American version" of Legacy MUD Stompy, the German lists that place top8s don't run Forgemasters and their Vintage counterparts run Wurmcoils with minimal numbers. Maybe its because Vintage lists in general don't run that much creature hate like Legacy lists do.

    Steel Hellkite - While this is only a singleton in the Forgemaster lists (as a tutor), a lot of German lists run them as a full playset. Doing an Pernicious Deeding your opponent's board every attack does feel sweet. Even Vintage lists run a full playset of them (I guess blowing up your opponent's Moxes for free is sweet.

    Karn, Silver Golem - Not a lot of Legacy lists run him but he sees a lot of play in Vintage, even right now. I guess he is good in blowing up opposing Moxes or turning your lock pieces into beaters in a heartbeat. He's also not bad in blocking Tarmogoyfs, though he can't kill them. Maybe Legacy lists should consider running him.

    Artifact Support - Basically artifacts that are not creatures that sees play in MUD lists

    In Vintage, all five Moxes and Black Lotus sees play in MUD lists. I guess for Legacy, Mox Diamonds and Mox Opals can be used as substitutes for the 5 Moxes. For Black Lotus, Mana Vault, Mana Crypt and Sol Ring; I think Grim Monolith would do the job in substituting for them (since Grim Monolith itself doesn't see play in Vintage MUD lists).

    The big difference between Vintage MUD and Legacy MUD is that the Vintage builds are lock-oriented where as the Legacy builds have its supporting artifacts revolve around its creature pieces. Maybe the Legacy version should change its philosophy and follow the Vintage path? Granted, a lot of important pieces from Vintage are not available in Legacy (such as Mishra's Workshop) but if built properly, it could perform just about the same.

    In a typical Vintage MUD list, you'll find the following (surprisingly, Legacy MUD lists rarely run these on the main): Chalice of the Void, Sphere of Resistance, Tangle Wire, Thorn of Amethyst, and Trinisphere.

    While Thorn is underwhelming in Legacy, it can be substituted with Trinisphere (since we can run four of it).

    Maybe the Legacy MUD list should try building the deck around those pieces. The German lists have tried it and so far they're doing much better.

    On Null Rod and Energy Flux:

    Null Rod isnt that devastating to this deck as it is on Affinity. MUD runs minimal artifact lands and can still Function under an active Null Rod (though it will be slower).

    Energy Flux on the other hand, it can be answered. Like Null Rod, most of the manabase will be unaffected (though you will be forced to pay for you artifact if you want them kept). I think Mycosynth Lattice would be a good card against Energy Flux (if you can Tinker for it via Forgemaster).
    I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle View Post
    13NoVa plays Force of Will from his hand.
    Finglonger plays Spell Pierce from his hand.
    [10:22:43]  13NoVa: lol
    sure
    Finglonger points from his Dack Fayden to 13NoVa's Sol Ring.
    [10:23:04]  13NoVa: lol dumb ******; nice draws with retard.dec
    stupid cocksucker
    You have been kicked out of the game.

  9. #9
    bruizar
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    Re: [archetype discussion] MUD

    Quote Originally Posted by (nameless one) View Post
    I was actually trying to generalize MUD as any deck that are almost to all colorless and use the Sol Lands (Ancient Tomb, City of Traitors and to some extent Crystal Veins). I actually refer to the aggro version (such as the Kuldotha Forgemaster builds) as Stompy (MUD Stompy) and the lock version as Stax (MUD Staxx).
    You can't do this and expect a good analysis. Off the top of my head, there are quiet a few strategically diverse decks utilizing Sol Lands
    Armageddon Stax / Dutch Stax
    Utilizes Smokestack / Flagstones of Trokair / Crucible as well as Armageddon (and, depending on the build, Tabernacle effects)
    UB BridgeWalker
    Utilizes Tezzeret and Jace under Ensnaring Bridge

    Meandeck Mud with Goblin Welder
    Utilizes explosive Metalworkers, Grim Monolith's and Kuldotha Forgemasters with Goblin Welder against counters.

    Mud with Thoughtcast
    Same as above, but replaces red for Thoughtcast to draw cards

    Dragon Stompy
    Uses quick Blood Moon effects to color screw and quick beats in the form of Hellbent Rakdos Pitdragon. Koth of the Hammer also used sometimes. Has synergy with City of Traitors due to it becoming a mountain.

    Faerie Stompy
    Faerie Stompy - Utilizes blue permission with strong fliers (Serendib Efreet, Sea Drake). Takes advantage of Sea Drake / Sol Land Synergy, and uses cards like Mulldrifter and Swords of X/Y.

    My unannounced artifact list
    Functions differently from all of the above.


    These decks all function in entirely different ways. You can't say Sol Lands don't work because there aren't good enough lock pieces, when there are plenty of decks with Sol Lands that don't even use prison elements. It becomes really hard to discuss anything worthwhile if the terminology is mixed.

  10. #10
    (previously Metalwalker)
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    Re: [archetype discussion] MUD

    Is the OP talking about MUD or Stompy or Stax?

    This is all very confusing. MUD refers to the core of primarily colorless cards that make an archetype. MUD can go Aggro (in Legacy it is commonly called Stompy, in Vintage it's called MUD Aggro) or prison style i.e. MUD Stax.

    Just MUD alone does not really narrow down the discussion to anything. Or are you interested in both aggro and prison builds of MUD that are semi-viable in legacy?

    FYI: Dragonstompy, Faerie Stompy are not classified under the MUD archetype (think Chrome Mox, think MUD again). Meandeck MUD, MUD Stax, 12sphere are considered MUD decks.
    Decks that I care about:
    Steel Stompy
    UWx Landstill
    Dreadstalker
    DDFT (10% practice)

    Mangara on MWS? You must be masochistic. -kiblast
    Quote Originally Posted by Gheizen64 View Post
    REB is a fantastic sideboard card against blue... in blue decks :/

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    Re: [archetype discussion] MUD

    Ive had alot of personal success with mud, people try to do too many things in mud like lock pieces, wastelands etc etc. They just don't work. What you need is resiliency. Mud is pretty much a combo deck. You shouldn't be trying to add control elements and the sorts like wastes and trinis. Just go for the kill and max out consistency. I play this list:

    4 chalice
    3 spellskite
    4 grim
    4 metalworker
    3 lightning greaves
    3 sylvan library (MVP)
    4 lodestone golem
    4 kudoltha forgemaster
    4 wurmcoil engine
    1 sundering Titan
    1 myr battlesphere

    3 mox diamond
    2 mox opal

    4 forest
    4 darksteel citadel
    4 tree of tales
    4 ancient tomb
    4 city of traitors

    Sb
    4 trini
    3 choke
    4 revoker
    4 seal of primordium

    This deck is very straight forward, nothing fancy but plenty of redundancy. It can run chalice @ 1 optimally because it skips keys. Keys IMO are very win more and conditional. Playing more lands helps alot with consistency. That's what mud really needs, consistency and resiliency.

    Post board seal of primordium are preemptive solutions to null rod. It's the best out. And even if you top deck it, you can cast it with forests.

  12. #12
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    Re: [archetype discussion] MUD

    Invanpei you are spot on with your remarks about consistency and resiliency as the focal points for MUD deck building.
    Your list actually looks amazing and I will start to test it asap. Some remarks where I am not sure if I share your view.

    Robot configuration:
    4 Wurm, 1 Sundering, 1 Myr.
    - Can you give your reasoning behind this configuration? 4 Wurm are usually not necessary, but in the green version they might be more important because of the additional life lose from Library. (As a comparison I run a single Wurm in my UR build and dont miss the additional ones).

    - Myr B. is pretty strong in Welder build and I value it far higher than I did initially. I like that you can tutor it up and even if it gets removed you still have the tokens to Tinker again. Myr is also good where you have to keep a reactive Forgemaster open and still want to put a threat into play. E.g if you fear an Hive Mind / Emrakul or something.

    - Sundering also gives you an immediate effect, but I dont know if I like him in none-Welder builds that much.

    Guys you are not running:
    - Steelhell, while he does neet to connect, its still a very potent card. Flying can be very relevant too. I definitly would include a single one.
    - BSC: While he is not strictly necessary, I still like him in none TfK / Welder builds, because he can sometimes end the game out of nowhere and doesnt give your opponent the chance to react / recover. Especially with 3 Greaves (which I like very much).
    - Duplicant / P. Metamorph: Strongest in Welder builds I agree to not run him (main) in the green version. On the other hand I would like to have a single Metamorph between main and side, as an answer to Emrakul / Progenitus.

    Manabase:
    20 land, 3 Mox Diamond, 2 Mox Opal
    First of I agree on the 2 Mox Opal, but I am not sure if I like 21 land 2 Mox Diamond more. Consistency is still my concern. On the other hand in a build like this without one drop you might need the explovsivness (+ consistency lose) of 3 Mox to enable more turn one 2-3 mana opening hands. I am willing to try your configuration, but might go to 2 Mox D. / 21 land.
    About the lands, I dont think that Citadel is necessary. At least not as a 4of, I consider 4-6 artifact lands as optimum. 4 Citadel is by no means bad, but I wonder if running Rishadan Port in that slot could be stronger. Need to test this, but wanted to point it out anyway. Also something like 2-3 green fetchlands can be considered to increase the value of Library.

    No keys:
    Havnt tried it, but sound very reasonable. Especially without SDT, Key can be very lackluster. First turn Grim->Key, while very explosive (enabling first turn Golem), is often also a very risky play, because of Mental Misstep. If the misstep the Key you wasted your Monolith completly.

    Sideboard:
    Your configuration looks very reasonable and straight forward, which I like. I consider the 4th Trini as the weakest card in your board currently. I am playing a single Platinum Angel in that slot. She can be a game winner on her own, especially with Lightning Greaves. She is also better than Emperion in the face of Hivemind + Pact.
    Even then I dont like the 3 Trinis that much in general, but with Dredge in mind, the might be necessary. Still want to test this matchup if it is winnable on the back of Mindslaver and Angel alone (slave them, then waste their Grudges and lock them out with Angel), which might be too shaky in the end.

    Great job on the build again!
    BBB

  13. #13
    bruizar
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    Re: [archetype discussion] MUD

    Quote Originally Posted by Metalwalker View Post
    Is the OP talking about MUD or Stompy or Stax?

    This is all very confusing. MUD refers to the core of primarily colorless cards that make an archetype. MUD can go Aggro (in Legacy it is commonly called Stompy, in Vintage it's called MUD Aggro) or prison style i.e. MUD Stax.
    In Vintage, MUD is defined by the use of Metalworker. There are Workshop Aggro lists that don't use Metalworker, and they are called Workshop Aggro. There is also Redshop Aggro which uses Barbarian Rings, Goblin Welders, Gathan Raiders or Magus of the Moon. There is also a more exotic blue shop list that uses Esperzoa, Mana Drain, Tangle Wires, Master of Etherium and Elsewhere Flask. And there is also Ubastax which combines Mishra's Workshop, Goblin Welder and Bazaar of Baghdad. There is also Espresso Stax which uses Dark Confidant and Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and Dark Blast / Crucible of Worlds to fix the inherent weakness workshop dekcs have in terms of draw engines. There is also 5-c Stax that uses cards like City of Brass, Balance, In the Eye of Chaos and Ancestral Recall, and there are GR builds using with Ancient Grudge, Sylvan Library, Ubmask, Welder.

    As you can see, it's quiet hard to make any generalizations. Not taking into account the colors, there are generally 2 strategic questions you have to ask yourself.

    Do I want to play Workshop Aggro (beatdown) or Stax (prison) ?
    Am I playing a Null Rod Resistant / Null Rod Prone deck?

    Workshop Aggro+Null Rod Prone = MUD (Metalworker, Staff of Domination, Triskelion, Sword of Fire and Ice, Lodestone Golem, Karn Silver Golem)
    Workshop Aggro+Null Rod Proof = WS Aggro (Duplicant, Razormane Masticore, Lodestone Golem, Karn (even though it's hit by Rod, its simply too good not to run)

    The term MUD STAX doesn't exist in Vintage (nor in legacy), because it implies the use of metalworker in a prison deck. Prison decks in vintage use Thorn of Amethyst, Sphere of resistance, Trinisphere and Lodestone Golem. If you open with Metalworker, you may well be dead. You have to open with a lockpiece or you have a good chance of losing. Null Rod synergizes extremely well with sphere effects which makes Metalworker even worse in a prison deck.

    Again, please do not be too loose with terms because it makes the conversation hazy.

  14. #14
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    Re: [archetype discussion] MUD

    No worries,

    @ Robot Config. I like Wurmcoils as a 4 off because it is just good to draw. You can run some number of duplicants-steelhellkite-other targets for some flexibility but raw power wise, I like wurmcoil. He just rapes aggro and is a pain for Control to remove.

    Blightsteel feels win more to me. Whenever I successfully untap with forgemaster, I win pretty much. Killing the opponent this turn doesn't matter when my Battlesphere-Wurmcoil Chain comes online. I haven't really had much trouble with winning once that's online. Plus both wurmcoil and battlesphere are easily castable when drawn. I only really missed blightsteel vs matchups where you need to win now, ie against combo, thats why I kept sundering titan in, he just wrecks the opponents mana, it's insane. Against control Sundering is also pretty devastating. Most importantly, you can actually cast Sundering Titan.

    I sometimes kick myself when I draw double mox diamond, but it's a necessary evil. Nothing wrong with 2 mox-21 lands, both IMO are fine. Keys IMO are really really bad, especially in a Misstep ridden format. I've found that I'd rather have land instead of key 90% of the time. I really don't mind untapping my monoliths with lands, it's a perfectly fine and much safer play. Also having more lands really decreases your mulligan rates.

    On the no of artifact lands, you really dont want to go under 6 in my build because I run so little cheap artifacts, I am forced to make up for it with lands. I prefer 8, but that's just for consistency reasons, less is probably ok if you feel like risking it. Oh and BTW, spellskite is a monster. It really really makes life difficult for opponents. Whenever I lead with T1 spellskite, T2 bomb, it is really devastating. You are right, trini 4 is very loose in the board. It's probably going to be Spellskite 4. That card is insane.

    Platinum is a good card if your meta has all sorts of random combo. You can't prepare completely for all types so it's a good catch all. Again, the sb is up for debate depending on the meta. Cheers, hope you enjoy the list!

  15. #15
    bruizar
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    Re: [archetype discussion] MUD

    @Ivanpei.

    I think your list looks solid, but I'm not sure if I agree on your sideboard. 4 Trinispheres look a little useless imo and you don't have any dredge hate. Dredge is a far greater metagame threat than combo. Your maindeck looks sweet though. How are the Spellskites working for you?

  16. #16
    Poisonous Foogoofiish
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    Re: [archetype discussion] MUD

    bruizar, we just talked about the 4th Trinisphere, also Trini is in fact the anti Dredge card..
    He also just stated that Spellskite is quite good..

    Ivanpei I agree with most of your comments.
    About Wurmcoil versus control, it completly depends on their removal suite. Against BUG Landstill he usually keep him in, because it is just like you described. However against UWx Landstill I consider Wurm as pretty bad, because of STP.
    Against STP in general I like to go for robots which have an immediate effect (citp), like Myr B. / Titan.
    Your list is suited to protect the robots extremly well (COTV, Spellskite, sometimes Greaves), so Wurm still might connect, but it's basically just a 6/6 for 6 against them, due to all of its abilities being irrelevant (this is oversimplified ofc).


    About MUD in general. All concepts, which are remotly viable in Legacy. are currently more or less based on Meandeck MUD.
    However I was thinking about the more Prison-like approach, which was written of ealier. Golem is a pretty universal lock piece in my opinion, better to say that he slows your opponent down. Similiar to Waste / Port and Tangle Wire.
    My idea was that maybe a list which tries to slow / stall the opponent till you can resolve one of the following cards:
    - Karn
    - All is Dust
    - Upheaval
    (formerly Wildfire, which doesnt cut it anymore imo)
    These cards are pretty devastating, if backed up correctly. Means with a lot of mana and the mentioned stall components. Basically a strategy which resolves around stalling into a huge bomb. Mishras Helix as a Forgemaster target comes to my mind aswell. There all kinds of problems involved with such a concept (e.g. threat density), but I wanted to share this idea anyway.
    BBB

  17. #17
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    Re: [archetype discussion] MUD

    Also, they way I see it, if you have more lock pieces online, you're opponents any really do much. And if your opponent can't really do much, you don't have to rely to your topdeck all the time. Sure the issue of inconsistent draws is still there but if your opponent can't really do anything to you, you can be safe enough and keep alive until you get the draws you need.

    With that said, the deck could (or needs) to run Karn, the Silver Golem as he can turn your lock pieces into win conditions.

    Though I actually like ivanpei's list. I was just wondering why you have both Greaves and Spellskite. Don't they fulfill the same role? Though I can see the pros and cons of each one.
    I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle View Post
    13NoVa plays Force of Will from his hand.
    Finglonger plays Spell Pierce from his hand.
    [10:22:43]  13NoVa: lol
    sure
    Finglonger points from his Dack Fayden to 13NoVa's Sol Ring.
    [10:23:04]  13NoVa: lol dumb ******; nice draws with retard.dec
    stupid cocksucker
    You have been kicked out of the game.

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