Dismember is pretty solid fwiw, I think it competes with Submerge in the SB mainly because it's effective against Stoneblade in the absence of Tropical Island.Originally Posted by Morbid-
I used a similar list (-1 terravore +1 ozze -1 fire//ice +1 goyf -2 spell pierce (great idea) +1 misstep +1 lavamancer) and more meta oriented SB.
Have you found any problems without any basic lands? maybe switch a hierarch for a bird of paradise?
Long time lurker, first time poster. Hi guys.
I'm having a really hard time figuring out some of Alex B's card choices. Considering he has access to every card printed in some form or fashion, I can't for the life of me think of why he would play Pierce over Flusterstorm. I imagine it's brought in for combo decks and to win counter battles... both of which Fluster does better for the same mana cost.
Also, Edric... say wha?
Probably because it answers things like Jace and ensnaring bridge?
As stated above, pierce actually answers jace, while flusterstorm looks on sadly as the planeswalker resolves. Just a quick example from the boston top 8 where flusterstorm could have fallen really flat (but luckily did not). During the quarterfinals games where boccio was playing against castellon, in game 3 boccio was trying to beat a sheoldred that castellon had brought out. On turn 6 or so boccio tapped 4 mana, but sadly only had natural order, which flusterstorm did counter. It's not hard to imagine what would of happened if boccio had played JTMS with that 4 mana instead. He would of bounced the preator, trapping it in castellon's hand, and then bury castellon under a barrage of card advantage. Flusterstorm is good against mental misstep, as well as in straight up counter wars, but it doesn't counter what's probably the most powerful 4 drop ever made by wizards. Bottom line, I'd much rather have something like spell pierce or counterspell that can deal with Jace.
You can't pull out the RUG from under me, CUZ I AM THE RUG!
Touche' and well put. I never caught the instant or sorcery portion of the text.
Now, for Edric? With the abundance of Stoneblade decks in the format, I can't really see why this would be played over something like Trygon... even with Ancient Grudge and Krosan's in the board... Granted, CA is nice... Ugh.
As for Edric, I don't really have an explanation. It's been suggested as a zenith target before in this thread, but I haven't seen him in action personally. Personally, I'd rather have trygon as an extra target (and I don't even run trygon in my list), but Edric might be strong enough. I'll ask Alex sometime how it treated him for the tournament, and I'll let you know what he says when I talk to him.
You can't pull out the RUG from under me, CUZ I AM THE RUG!
How do you guys play against Hive Mind?
I tested the match up a little and it was kinda depressing. Postboard I have 4 REB, 2 Pierce, 4 FoW and Misstep (boarding out 2 Lavamancer, 4 Order, Progenitus and a Terravore for 4 REB, 2 Trygon, 2 Jace, as I want to bounce the Emrakul, but otherwise don't tap out after turn 2, Trygon are against Monolith and Hive Mind without pacts).
Do you spare your counters for the key cards as in SnT and Hive Mind or do you counter the Intuition aswell? I keep the Missteps in to counter their cantrips to slow their development.
That's an interesting one. Personally, I don't think the matchup is that bad.
If you put them on having Emerakrul and have the Jace or THINK you can draw into it (or know you'll draw into it) I put in a land off of s&t, play jace and bounce.
If you put them on having pact, there's a few lines of play. You can just get into a counter war with them over s&t, but remember they have 8 0 casting cost counters between Force and blue pact. Generally I'll either daze my copy of the pact with 1 mana up to pay for their copy if they're terribad and try to daze your daze... Or I clique in response to the s&t and take whatever they plan to bring in... etc etc.
Overall, the matchup isn't bad. I'd put it at 55-60%.
One of the biggest problems I've been encountering lately is the legend ruling of Progenitus. It's becoming more and more prevalentas the deck picks up in popularity. Merfolk are now even running main deck Phantasmals which can ruin our day, and many people just side in metamorph.
One of the biggest gameplans so far has been to side out the combo and move into a more traditional aggro/control game with goyf/clique beats and counterspells. This is all well and good, but it removes the "trump" aspect of our deck.
I've been trying to think of "good" alternate NO targets... and while Terastadon is good, it's not the best thing in the world in all matchups.
Has anyone considered Godsire in this slot? Or boarding in painters servant/emerakrul? Just some thoughts. I don't think the servant/emerakrul plan would work considering the amount of board space it would take up though... unfortunately.
The only relevant other targets i have tested in my old NO Maverick lists were Empyrial Archangel and Novablast Wurm. They might be worth a shot in testing if you are troubled with the other things.
If you're concerned about legend-ruling Progenitus by copying it, boarding in Painter's Servant + Emrakul isn't an option. The same thing will happen to your Emrakul and you would board into a two card combo with one piece being fragile as hell.
Boarding out Natural Order and Progenitus against Merfolk should be your default plan. Also, if you're running Terravore, you still have some kind of trumps that can just win if you land them (plus you can consider Grim Lavamancer a trump against certain decks as well).
Also, Godsire. Not really. I don't want to run cute cards in this deck and I certainly don't want to get hit by a Swords To Plowshares after I cast Natural Order. The only alternate Natural Order target I would ever run is Terastodon, and even that is more of a fringe card and debatable. It's an option if you expect to face lots of combo, but that's about it.
Against strategies where NO may be a liability, just board it out. Terastodon and Progenitus are going to be as optimal as you can get with targets, to be honest. Empyrial Archangel has always been underwhelming for me when I have included it in an NO package. The only third target I might consider is Hellkite Overlord, but again, in some situations it would be poor. Seems really good against decks without access to Swords to Plowshares, though.
Delver enthusiast and avid practitioner of blind flipsmanship.
Follow me on Twitter: @AllSunsDawn
Like the mirror.
The deck seems very popular in the US so why not board one?
Could never hurt to try. :)
In the mirror there's still Fire // Ice. So if they could handle Natural Order for Progenitus, chances are they could be able to race you if you cast Natural Order for Hellkite Overlord and they have a Fire // Ice. It's harder though. If you want to improve the mirror, run Terravore. Apart from Natural Order and Vendilion Clique, that guy and Fire // Ice help me winning my matches the most.
I had run Gaea's Revenge in the past as a NO target to moderate success. People don't expect haste and the Pro-Swords gets them too. I only stopped running it because people started to know it was coming. It was more of a surprise metagame inclusion.
Asylum EDH: Foil or go home.
Too bad it doesn't have evasion. I can't say I haven't considered it, but I played with it in T2 RUG and it was awful, haha. It does do a great job of dodging Swords, Submerge, and Ice.
Delver enthusiast and avid practitioner of blind flipsmanship.
Follow me on Twitter: @AllSunsDawn
Good article Jona!
..but I really don't get how Terravore can be in the MD.
very bad in many matchups / situations and really only shines versus KoR.
I dont think we need a special answer for G/W anyway if we run basics. If we manage their answers to our progenitus postboard, we should rarely loose a race with countermagic/goyf/clique,... If I would look for an answer to KoR, I would prefer submerge since it is also very good in the mirror or any other Tier decks running green.
The point I want to make is that I think the deck can support 3 basic lands and 2 dryad arbor. The basic mountain should be in MD or SB if you want to rely on 4 REB, 3 Grim Lavamancer, 4-5 Burn spells versus a deck that runs wastelands (Merfolk, UW-Stoneblade). I am currently testing if I want the Mountain MD instead of the taiga to save the SB spot.
I think the best answer to the anti-progenitus plan is often to board 2-3 jace and try to win with a bunch of good cards as jona pointed out.
I came in second with a list close the scg configuration in my local tourney yesterday and the most importing findings:
- 2 Sylvan Library won me 3 games (not matches), where Ponder would not.
-On the flip side no Ponder and 3 basics main probably got me color/mana screwed twice (weird variance as well involved!), but there were also 2 very important matches (vs. merfolk and gw) where fetching for a dual WOULD have lost me the game.
...still not sold on the basics idea, but I think we should think more about the mana base (playing around or "through" wastelands) than which green creature to maindeck. The 4 goyfs maindeck are not really debateable for me. As Jona said "we are usually the beatdown deck" and a turn 2 goyf is much better than a turn 2 terravore. I don't worry about the end of the curve for GSZ having Jace and NO which are the best 4 mana spells anyway...
Catmin, are you playing Jace and Sylvan Library maindeck? How many copies of each?
Can you post your list? My current list:
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Taiga
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Progenitus
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Mental Misstep
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
2 Fire // Ice
4 Natural Order
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Library
Side:
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Submerge
2 Tormod's crypt
1 Scavenging Ooze
I really miss the basic mountain, especially against Merfolks. In my testing, Jace is not as decisive as it is in other decks. Sylvan is the card that really has unbalanced my games against control.I'll try 1 Terravore maindeck today.
The thing about Tarmogoyf is that it's really not as good as it used to be anymore. It gets stalled relatively easily and almost nobody plays sorceries anymore, aside from Green Sun's Zenith, which only touched the graveyard if it gets countered. A 3/4 for two mana might be good, but Terravore is rarely smaller than 4/4 and most of the time 6/6 or bigger.
In my experience, it's very hard to get manascrewed with this deck so if you don't get hit by multiple Wastelands in a row, it's almost always a nonissue. It's just +2/+2 for your Terravore. As for boarding it out, I almost never do this if I don't board out Tarmogoyf and Green Sun's Zenith as well. I board out Tarmogoyf much more regularly, for example against Maverick or most Big Zoo lists. These are matchups where Terravore really shines.
As long as there's no serious graveyard-crippling involved (Scavenging Ooze, both players using Grim Lavamancer), Terravore is a house. I tested the mirror with my list against Alex Bertoncini's list and Terravore clearly dominated the matchup. It's also very strong against Team America, where you pretty much have to resolve Natural Order or Jace, otherwise you just lose to Darkblast.
For me, not having basics has never been an issue either. I honestly do not remember a single game that I lost to Wasteland. I saw someone losing because they couldn't get a basic with Path To Exile though, but who plays that card anyway? Also, that was after a mull to four so with one or two cards more this shouldn't have been an issue. I think this rather goes under "sick variance".
In other news, I already submitted my follow-up article with boarding plans and some thoughts on mulligan decisions with this deck. It should be up soon.
Edit: I just read Reid Duke's article from today and I find it interesting that he discusses Terravore as well. Further, I find it interesting that his argument against it is pretty much my argument for it. I agree with him that Tarmogoyf was just sick in the old version with Chain Lightning, but ever since I made the switch to Fire // Ice it has become worse. Unlike him, I also think that Tarmogoyf is much more matchup dependent than Terravore and I really only prefer Tarmogoyf against Merfolk. In every other matchup Terravore has been way better for me. It's quite hard to argue with his results though.
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